655 replies to this topic

[Kristov Kerensky]

Damo, I WANT to agree with you on the knowing variants bit..but..if you have the TROs or just open up the Sarna site, anyone can know exactly what a CPLT-K2 has and there's nothing special about knowing it anymore. When we played TT, the game master didn't let us have any of our source books at hand, only he had them. If we had them memorized, great, if we didn't..well..we didn't, we didn't get to look em up, so it was a skill and a damned useful one at that. Now..I can run Battlefield 3 and SW:TOR at the same time AND have multiple browser windows up AND 2 different voice comm progs all at the same time and my system won't even hiccup, so it's a no brainer that anyone and everyone can know exactly what's on every listed variant at a moment's notice.

[Wolvers]

Tweaks, on 21 December 2011 - 02:06 PM, said:

I might have not explained this well then, but it's not what I meant. For example, if a given 'Mech's variant A has a PPC in its right arm, and an AC/10 in its left arm, and the variant B has 1x Large laser in each arm, then it would be relatively easy to make out the two apart from far away just by looking at the rough outline of the weapons of each arm, without knowing precisely what the weapons are. A PPC is bigger than an AC/10, and you know that's only those variants (let's suppose), so you could tell quickly that because the 2 arm weapons are not equal in size, that it must be the variant A...

That known, you can refer to what variant A's weak points are and counter them accordingly.

That is in no way arguing against what I said. I agree you will be able to tell the difference between the guns (unless they are upgraded versions, not sure if there would be much of a physical difference between an ER Large Laser and a standard Large Laser), therefore your below quote won't change with customization.

//To me, learning all the different 'Mechs and learning how to recognize the variants by looking at its guns was a thrill.//

Tweaks, on 21 December 2011 - 02:06 PM, said:

If you still don't understand this, I'll have to draw pictures...

Don't be a dick, you stated you enjoyed recognizing variants by looking at their guns and discerning their capabilities. So what the hell are you arguing about? If all PPC's will look the same, if all AC/10's will look the same, if all Large Lasers will look the same, then I don't think it would be too much of a problem to get a reasonable idea on a mech's capabilities even if you hadn't seen nor heard anything about the variant/customized/ mech.

Regardless of weapons changes that may change the look of the arms on a mech or even slight changes to the chassis to fit different guns, it will still come up on your HUD as an Atlas-(whatever variant name), Catapult-(whatever variant name). Just like it has done in prior MW games, unlike those, I'm hoping that we'll see actual phyical changes to the mechs when fitted with different weapons.

[Damocles]

Right and I think people should have easy access to information should they choose to use it.

I just want to have certain expectations visually and performance-wise met in-game.
If mechs could be customized visually from the mechlab to reflect their new armament then I'd be totally down.
But I do not expect that to be included. (I HOPE if variants were in then they would have a unique appearance though)

Canon variants are an easier way to bridge that gap between full tear-down customizing without visual changes and being stuck with one stock loadout and no variables.

Sorry, I am sure this has all been said repeatedly in countless threads but just giving my piece too.

/Damo

[Nik Van Rhijn]

The example Hunchback I produced is an improvement on the Swayback, 2 more ML's and max armour. The point is with ML's you dont have to lead the target it's instantaneous. with no fear of ammo explosions. More to the point it's nearly double the damage. How many mechs do you know in this time frame that can take 50 points of damage to the centre torso? I would call that "coring" wouldn't you.It's not a perfect example of min/maxing, in this weight class you go for 55 tons and probably ER LL's - been a while since I've worked on this time. Is this what we can expect with customisation long term as those that can put the time in get the money to pay for such things?

[Nairdowell]

Having played almost all of the BT/MW versions, I like the idea of stock mechs, mech variances, with heavy limitations on time to customize, type of customization, price, etc. While the Clan Invasion was a great read (have ALL the books), not so much fun facing something that blows you away before you even can detect it. No sure who said earlier that the immersion is the thing, but have to agree with them. Would rather have tactics and skill give a player a chance against any mech, rather than there be a limited number of "winning" choices. Winning isn't everything (though it beats losing..), its how you play the game....

Nairdowell

[Wolvers]

Damocles, on 21 December 2011 - 02:37 PM, said:

Right and I think people should have easy access to information should they choose to use it.

I just want to have certain expectations visually and performance-wise met in-game.
If mechs could be customized visually from the mechlab to reflect their new armament then I'd be totally down.
But I do not expect that to be included. (I HOPE if variants were in then they would have a unique appearance though)

Canon variants are an easier way to bridge that gap between full tear-down customizing without visual changes and being stuck with one stock loadout and no variables.

Sorry, I am sure this has all been said repeatedly in countless threads but just giving my piece too.

/Damo

I agree, whilst I'm all for full customization, it's only under the condition that we will see actual visual changes in-game. Besides the inherent time/cost of doing such a thing.

I hope the whole MechLab is done better than prior mech games, I would expect bigger costs and time to factor in in some way, but it appears they won't be introducing it to begin with, which is probably a good idea.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Damocles, on 21 December 2011 - 02:37 PM, said:

Right and I think people should have easy access to information should they choose to use it.

I just want to have certain expectations visually and performance-wise met in-game.
If mechs could be customized visually from the mechlab to reflect their new armament then I'd be totally down.
But I do not expect that to be included. (I HOPE if variants were in then they would have a unique appearance though)

Canon variants are an easier way to bridge that gap between full tear-down customizing without visual changes and being stuck with one stock loadout and no variables.

Sorry, I am sure this has all been said repeatedly in countless threads but just giving my piece too.

/Damo

Actually..MWLL is currently working on making all customizations of the Mech alter it's physical appearance, I believe they want that working fully before they allow the players to customize the Mechs. And from what they've done so far, it looks really good. MekTek I think did do that with their AT1 game..a MW2 remake I think. So there's no game engine limitation that PGI has to deal with, it's just a matter of them doing it. We'll have to wait and see on that, but I agree with you, THAT would be awesome and it would make customs really REALLY nice.

Nik.., looking at the BTech Mechs..I can think of a few Assaults who could handle that 50 to the center torso and not be cored..like..all of em? And most Heavys..and even a few Meds. True, on the Heavies and Meds, you'd be into the internal structure, MIGHT get a crit and core em, but purely damage wise..nope, they'll still be up and running.

Time and costs for customization..yeah, ALL for it..in a FULL ON MMOSIM game, which we ain't getting just yet. Full cost, yes, time..no..cause what the hell do YOU expect the players, including yourself, to do while you wait for those repairs or customizations to be done? You won't be playing the game, cause outside of combat, there IS no game. So..you want to sit in the chat lobby for a few hours, days, weeks while waiting to play? Hurrah! You've just killed MWO! See you folks in another decade when someone else feels like wasting millions on a game that's had 3 failures in a row!

[Damocles]

Kristov Kerensky, on 21 December 2011 - 02:56 PM, said:

Time and costs for customization..yeah, ALL for it..in a FULL ON MMOSIM game, which we ain't getting just yet. Full cost, yes, time..no..cause what the hell do YOU expect the players, including yourself, to do while you wait for those repairs or customizations to be done? You won't be playing the game, cause outside of combat, there IS no game.

I was personally expecting they'd reveal Lone Wolf play as a way to play(read:grind) matches for C-bills that have no impact on the metagame. Thus if you were waiting on a repair or refit then you could still play and still advance but it would slow down the changeover of planets etc in the meta.

Doesn't appear to be going that way now though

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I had assumed people will have more than one mech at that level of customisation? I have no personal preference if they put time in or whatever. I will play it whatever they do.

[Ceefood]

I want a mechlab - I dont want a mechlab like in MW4 which you had very limited slots - this was not battletech whereas MW2 had all the same rules as tabletop BT - sure you could alpha things if you wanted but it left you with severe weaknesses & in MWO teamplay seems to be heavy on PGI minds so these weaknesses will be even more apparent - would good is a 100 ton frankenmech if it is so slow & lacks armour if a light mech snipes/scouts from behind & it gets annihilated from a distance??

[Kristov Kerensky]

Damocles, on 21 December 2011 - 03:00 PM, said:

I was personally expecting they'd reveal Lone Wolf play as a way to play(read:grind) matches for C-bills that have no impact on the metagame. Thus if you were waiting on a repair or refit then you could still play and still advance but it would slow down the changeover of planets etc in the meta.

Doesn't appear to be going that way now though

And what would you be using for that grinding if your Mech is in the shop? Your other Mech? Ok. you do 1 drop, it loses an arm and..now what? Your first Mech won't be done for 2 more weeks and you just found out it'll be 72 hours to replace the arm and weapons lost on your backup. Add another backup..fine..1 fight, again, hours of time for repairs. How many backups do you have?

Plus..this is really important too, Mech parts aren't just something you run down to a shop and grab. Replacement parts may or may not be on stock with your unit, be it a House or Merc unit, odds are..it won't be though. So you'll have to order it from whatever plant made it and wait for it to be sent to you. Space travel times in BTech are done in weeks and months, it's not quick, and it's got a 30 light year limit per Jump, with 6-9 days per jump for recharge. Plus a few weeks of burn time between Jumpship and planet in a Dropship, getting around the IS takes time..lots of it. There are red ball expresses set up by the various Powers That Be..but since you ain't a Lord of a House, don't expect you'll be using em, cause sending you that replacement arm for your Jenner is NOT a high priority I knows me some BTech, and while I'm all for using time as well as c-bills for repairs/customization, I also know the audience, and guess what..you will NOT get your player base to agree to sitting around for literally months JUST for spare parts, and that's IF you give them a ton of things to do outside of combat, which MWO won't have when it releases. It'll have combat, some more combat, and waiting in chat for the next combat. And that's it. Spending half an hour waiting on my customization or repairs..ok..I personally can deal with that..question is..how many people out there are also ok with that? Odds are..not enough to make it something PGI should do if they want to have the game be a success. This isn't TT, where those months of waiting for that replacement arm were the week between gaming sessions..or the time it took you smoke a bowl, get another bourbon, or just go hit the head. Lets face it, NONE of us actually spent that time required in TT as real time, it was a few minutes, a week or two at most, and boom, 2 and half years of research and development and testing and redesigning and BAM! I got my new totally custom from the ground up Mech, only cost me billions of c-bills, but look at my new 100 ton remake of a Battlemaster! Yeah..that actually took us long enough for the gm to hit the head while I got another bourbon, LONG two and a half years, let me tell you.

[CeeKay Boques]

Well, you rent a mech from a House/Merc Company of course.

Welcome to the company store!

Mechs in the shop?

Single Pilot Contract : 8m Cbills.
Mech Rental: 4m Cbills
Total Contract: 4M Cbills

Oh no you failed.

You owe the Rental company 4m Cbills. You have be reassigned.

[Damocles]

@Kristov
On your first point-I totally forgot the part where I meant to add that (that form of) Lone Wolves would endure no-cost in those unranked/non-metagame matches. No dmg No repair theyre just basically instant action drops that would net you some C-Bills. (Potentially you'd gain more per match in a ranked match)

Also I don't personally think repair time is a good idea either.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Techno..ok..THAT'S an idea I can get behind..TCS..oh yeah Problem is, you rent a Mech, it gets cored and reactor goes critical..you now owe TCS a few billion c-bills for that Mech, and you are broke..it's a great concept, but economically, not viable, 1 bad fight and you are broke for a very very long time.

Damocles..they actually mention in some of the interviews and Q&A today that Lone Wolf is something that they'll be giving more options to after launch, like a bounty system. No details on that, but it tells us something..the LW won't just be waiting around for someone to invite them to fill an empty slot..and that PGI WANTS people to be a Lone Wolf, not just a House or Merc unit.

And I can't get behind grabbing a Mech you don't pay for and getting paid, there needs to be a cost involved, which leads to the problem I touched on above

[StonedDead]

@Kristov I think the time could be shortened greatly for repairs and such, to allow a flowing sense of game play, but there should still be some time involved. No need to drag it out to the full thing, like you said, taking a few minute break was weeks/months in game. MW4 Mercs allowed you to pass time instantly to repair damaged and crippled mechs, but at the cost of maintenance for all your equipment and people as though you had just waited. Light damage was repaired for you as each mission took a standard cycle to prep for and be completed, the game did not reflect that fact too openly though. Cause in reality, it might take just a week or a few days to patch some light armor damage. I just hope they take the time to make it more of a sim and have those little things like expenses and wait time, just make them reasonable for online gaming.

[Wolvers]

On the TT, it doesn't take that long at all to do mech repairs, replacing a blown off limb, base time 180 minutes, blown off head 200 minutes, armour per location 15 minutes per box, replace the entire engine 360 minutes. Takes 30 minutes to replace an Omnimech Pod.

Just saying, the time frames aren't all that big if the parts are available.

[Tweaks]

Wolvers, on 21 December 2011 - 02:29 PM, said:

That is in no way arguing against what I said. I agree you will be able to tell the difference between the guns (unless they are upgraded versions, not sure if there would be much of a physical difference between an ER Large Laser and a standard Large Laser), therefore your below quote won't change with customization.

//To me, learning all the different 'Mechs and learning how to recognize the variants by looking at its guns was a thrill.//



Don't be a dick, you stated you enjoyed recognizing variants by looking at their guns and discerning their capabilities. So what the hell are you arguing about? If all PPC's will look the same, if all AC/10's will look the same, if all Large Lasers will look the same, then I don't think it would be too much of a problem to get a reasonable idea on a mech's capabilities even if you hadn't seen nor heard anything about the variant/customized/ mech.

Regardless of weapons changes that may change the look of the arms on a mech or even slight changes to the chassis to fit different guns, it will still come up on your HUD as an Atlas-(whatever variant name), Catapult-(whatever variant name). Just like it has done in prior MW games, unlike those, I'm hoping that we'll see actual phyical changes to the mechs when fitted with different weapons.

Please stop being so defensive, I'm not trying to get into a fight with you, and the "I'll draw a picture" thing was not an insult, I meant that seriously (as I'm clearly having trouble to explain what I mean with words). I'm not trying to insult your intelligence...

You're still not getting what I mean though. I'm talking about knowing how to recognize predefined variants as a whole by recognizing some of the weapons on a 'Mech. By being able to easily identify a whole variant by a few key points, it means you don't have to look at all the other weapons, since you know what the variant's specs. You know it can't be something else.

With fully customizable weapons, internals and other parts, you can't know for sure what's inside your opponent's 'Mech because it's not a stock variant anymore.

One of the fun of having stock variants and nothing else, is that the community eventually starts defining tactics to best counter x and y variant. For example, a certain 'Mech variant might be prone to overheating because it has too few heat sinks for the energy weapons it has, and you know that shooting a specific location on it will have good chances to burst its coolant tank...

With unpredictable variants (non-stock), you can't have that anymore and tactics only become centered around the weapons themselves, and not the 'Mechs.

A good analogy to that would be how today's fighter pilots are able to quickly identify a enemy fighter just by its shape (silhouette), paint color, condensation trail and such... They then know the range capabilities of that fighter, possible armament, flight specifications and performance statistics, and its weaknesses as well as it's strengths. This immediately dictates what tactic the pilot will need to employ.

That's what I don't like with full customization. not only it's counter to canon, but it becomes free-for-all, and I don't want that in this game. If that's what it ends up to be, I'll still play, but I'll be very disappointed.

Edited by Tweaks, 21 December 2011 - 06:28 PM.

[Alekto Serenis]

Actually the probaility will come that you can identify the mechs by the pilots... and therefore with experience get to know them, know their reactions and preferences, weapons and movement...

Isnt it more fun to differentiate between the people and the possibilties you might encounter then "Oh another Zeu-Something, ill do x and win"

And predictibility is a weakness, as example, everyone knows i will come with flak/hardenen/tac/g11 in blops, when i take something else and differ my movement my usual foes cannot counter me easy anymore, in 40k i am known to blow up my hq's, whenever i do an odd switch to another tactic, it confuses

I personally find it more fun to adapt to a situation then to already know what to exactly expect and react in a predefined set of "best option"

[Kristov Kerensky]

Sorry Tweaks, I was with you up until you said..

"That's what I don't like with full customization, not only it's counter to canon.."

It's not counter to canon, it's canon from the basic Battledroids up through ALL revisions of the BTech game. The rules on customizing a Mech in TT are pretty simple, clear and easy to follow. And they allow for literally ANYTHING you want to do, from changing out the old PPC on that Panther to a new ERPPC to building a NEW chassis from the ground up and filling it out with everything from the life support systems to armor. It IS canon, no matter how much you may dislike it for whatever reasons. Hell, where do you think the Variants listed in the TROs come from? Customization of the base Mechs by the designers AND players who sent in their designs or they showed off at a convention somewhere.


Wolvers..IF you happen to have the parts sitting around, yeah, it's hours to fix up a Mech from combat damage..but again, that's hours, not instant, not a few minutes. And again, doesn't matter, in TT time doesn't exist. In a video game, it's an important thing because most of us will be using our so called 'Free Time' to play the game..that's time we're not spending with our whatevers. And for a lot of people, it's maybe a few hours a week total. So, they jump in, get into combat, get their Mech torn up, have to replace that engine. That's 6 hours of waiting..for someone who's just spent 30 minutes of the ONLY two hours they'll get to spend in the game for the next week...uh uh...especially not in a F2P game, ain't gonna happen, customers will be beating a path away from your door, not to it. This is one of those places where the TT fans, like myself, have to step back and go 'no, don't do this part of TT, it won't appeal to any but the very hardcore and that will kill the future of the game'.

[Dlardrageth]

Kristov Kerensky, on 21 December 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:

[...]
It's not counter to canon, it's canon from the basic Battledroids up through ALL revisions of the BTech game. The rules on customizing a Mech in TT are pretty simple, clear and easy to follow. And they allow for literally ANYTHING you want to do, from changing out the old PPC on that Panther to a new ERPPC to building a NEW chassis from the ground up and filling it out with everything from the life support systems to armor. It IS canon, no matter how much you may dislike it for whatever reasons. Hell, where do you think the Variants listed in the TROs come from? Customization of the base Mechs by the designers AND players who sent in their designs or they showed off at a convention somewhere.
[...]

To some degree, sure. But if you ever actually tried to incorporate the offical MW RPG (no, P&P, not the computer games ) into your BT gameplay, you'd have gotten an idea how unlikely aka forbiddingly expensive it would be for anyone, and yes, that includes most house units, to get a "personal modification" done. And don't throw Yen-lo-wang at me, that particular wang is an exception on many layers, not the least its pilot being part of the ruling nobility.

So while agreeing with you on the point of the duration of repairs basically, I tend to favour a more strict approach as far as customization is concerned. Sure, make some room for it, but still keep a close lid on what is possible and what not. Fhe former incanations of the MW games (well, excluding MW1) showed all to well where that leads to.