MechLab scratchbuilding
#181
Posted 21 December 2011 - 02:26 PM
#182
Posted 21 December 2011 - 02:29 PM
Tweaks, on 21 December 2011 - 02:06 PM, said:
That known, you can refer to what variant A's weak points are and counter them accordingly.
That is in no way arguing against what I said. I agree you will be able to tell the difference between the guns (unless they are upgraded versions, not sure if there would be much of a physical difference between an ER Large Laser and a standard Large Laser), therefore your below quote won't change with customization.
//To me, learning all the different 'Mechs and learning how to recognize the variants by looking at its guns was a thrill.//
Tweaks, on 21 December 2011 - 02:06 PM, said:
Don't be a dick, you stated you enjoyed recognizing variants by looking at their guns and discerning their capabilities. So what the hell are you arguing about? If all PPC's will look the same, if all AC/10's will look the same, if all Large Lasers will look the same, then I don't think it would be too much of a problem to get a reasonable idea on a mech's capabilities even if you hadn't seen nor heard anything about the variant/customized/ mech.
Regardless of weapons changes that may change the look of the arms on a mech or even slight changes to the chassis to fit different guns, it will still come up on your HUD as an Atlas-(whatever variant name), Catapult-(whatever variant name). Just like it has done in prior MW games, unlike those, I'm hoping that we'll see actual phyical changes to the mechs when fitted with different weapons.
#183
Posted 21 December 2011 - 02:37 PM
I just want to have certain expectations visually and performance-wise met in-game.
If mechs could be customized visually from the mechlab to reflect their new armament then I'd be totally down.
But I do not expect that to be included. (I HOPE if variants were in then they would have a unique appearance though)
Canon variants are an easier way to bridge that gap between full tear-down customizing without visual changes and being stuck with one stock loadout and no variables.
Sorry, I am sure this has all been said repeatedly in countless threads but just giving my piece too.
/Damo
#184
Posted 21 December 2011 - 02:43 PM
#185
Posted 21 December 2011 - 02:44 PM
Nairdowell
#186
Posted 21 December 2011 - 02:50 PM
Damocles, on 21 December 2011 - 02:37 PM, said:
I just want to have certain expectations visually and performance-wise met in-game.
If mechs could be customized visually from the mechlab to reflect their new armament then I'd be totally down.
But I do not expect that to be included. (I HOPE if variants were in then they would have a unique appearance though)
Canon variants are an easier way to bridge that gap between full tear-down customizing without visual changes and being stuck with one stock loadout and no variables.
Sorry, I am sure this has all been said repeatedly in countless threads but just giving my piece too.
/Damo
I agree, whilst I'm all for full customization, it's only under the condition that we will see actual visual changes in-game. Besides the inherent time/cost of doing such a thing.
I hope the whole MechLab is done better than prior mech games, I would expect bigger costs and time to factor in in some way, but it appears they won't be introducing it to begin with, which is probably a good idea.
#187
Posted 21 December 2011 - 02:56 PM
Damocles, on 21 December 2011 - 02:37 PM, said:
I just want to have certain expectations visually and performance-wise met in-game.
If mechs could be customized visually from the mechlab to reflect their new armament then I'd be totally down.
But I do not expect that to be included. (I HOPE if variants were in then they would have a unique appearance though)
Canon variants are an easier way to bridge that gap between full tear-down customizing without visual changes and being stuck with one stock loadout and no variables.
Sorry, I am sure this has all been said repeatedly in countless threads but just giving my piece too.
/Damo
Actually..MWLL is currently working on making all customizations of the Mech alter it's physical appearance, I believe they want that working fully before they allow the players to customize the Mechs. And from what they've done so far, it looks really good. MekTek I think did do that with their AT1 game..a MW2 remake I think. So there's no game engine limitation that PGI has to deal with, it's just a matter of them doing it. We'll have to wait and see on that, but I agree with you, THAT would be awesome and it would make customs really REALLY nice.
Nik.., looking at the BTech Mechs..I can think of a few Assaults who could handle that 50 to the center torso and not be cored..like..all of em? And most Heavys..and even a few Meds. True, on the Heavies and Meds, you'd be into the internal structure, MIGHT get a crit and core em, but purely damage wise..nope, they'll still be up and running.
Time and costs for customization..yeah, ALL for it..in a FULL ON MMOSIM game, which we ain't getting just yet. Full cost, yes, time..no..cause what the hell do YOU expect the players, including yourself, to do while you wait for those repairs or customizations to be done? You won't be playing the game, cause outside of combat, there IS no game. So..you want to sit in the chat lobby for a few hours, days, weeks while waiting to play? Hurrah! You've just killed MWO! See you folks in another decade when someone else feels like wasting millions on a game that's had 3 failures in a row!
#188
Posted 21 December 2011 - 03:00 PM
Kristov Kerensky, on 21 December 2011 - 02:56 PM, said:
I was personally expecting they'd reveal Lone Wolf play as a way to play(read:grind) matches for C-bills that have no impact on the metagame. Thus if you were waiting on a repair or refit then you could still play and still advance but it would slow down the changeover of planets etc in the meta.
Doesn't appear to be going that way now though
#189
Posted 21 December 2011 - 03:09 PM
#190
Posted 21 December 2011 - 03:48 PM
#191
Posted 21 December 2011 - 04:56 PM
Damocles, on 21 December 2011 - 03:00 PM, said:
Doesn't appear to be going that way now though
And what would you be using for that grinding if your Mech is in the shop? Your other Mech? Ok. you do 1 drop, it loses an arm and..now what? Your first Mech won't be done for 2 more weeks and you just found out it'll be 72 hours to replace the arm and weapons lost on your backup. Add another backup..fine..1 fight, again, hours of time for repairs. How many backups do you have?
Plus..this is really important too, Mech parts aren't just something you run down to a shop and grab. Replacement parts may or may not be on stock with your unit, be it a House or Merc unit, odds are..it won't be though. So you'll have to order it from whatever plant made it and wait for it to be sent to you. Space travel times in BTech are done in weeks and months, it's not quick, and it's got a 30 light year limit per Jump, with 6-9 days per jump for recharge. Plus a few weeks of burn time between Jumpship and planet in a Dropship, getting around the IS takes time..lots of it. There are red ball expresses set up by the various Powers That Be..but since you ain't a Lord of a House, don't expect you'll be using em, cause sending you that replacement arm for your Jenner is NOT a high priority I knows me some BTech, and while I'm all for using time as well as c-bills for repairs/customization, I also know the audience, and guess what..you will NOT get your player base to agree to sitting around for literally months JUST for spare parts, and that's IF you give them a ton of things to do outside of combat, which MWO won't have when it releases. It'll have combat, some more combat, and waiting in chat for the next combat. And that's it. Spending half an hour waiting on my customization or repairs..ok..I personally can deal with that..question is..how many people out there are also ok with that? Odds are..not enough to make it something PGI should do if they want to have the game be a success. This isn't TT, where those months of waiting for that replacement arm were the week between gaming sessions..or the time it took you smoke a bowl, get another bourbon, or just go hit the head. Lets face it, NONE of us actually spent that time required in TT as real time, it was a few minutes, a week or two at most, and boom, 2 and half years of research and development and testing and redesigning and BAM! I got my new totally custom from the ground up Mech, only cost me billions of c-bills, but look at my new 100 ton remake of a Battlemaster! Yeah..that actually took us long enough for the gm to hit the head while I got another bourbon, LONG two and a half years, let me tell you.
#192
Posted 21 December 2011 - 05:04 PM
Welcome to the company store!
Mechs in the shop?
Single Pilot Contract : 8m Cbills.
Mech Rental: 4m Cbills
Total Contract: 4M Cbills
Oh no you failed.
You owe the Rental company 4m Cbills. You have be reassigned.
#193
Posted 21 December 2011 - 05:09 PM
On your first point-I totally forgot the part where I meant to add that (that form of) Lone Wolves would endure no-cost in those unranked/non-metagame matches. No dmg No repair theyre just basically instant action drops that would net you some C-Bills. (Potentially you'd gain more per match in a ranked match)
Also I don't personally think repair time is a good idea either.
#194
Posted 21 December 2011 - 05:40 PM
Damocles..they actually mention in some of the interviews and Q&A today that Lone Wolf is something that they'll be giving more options to after launch, like a bounty system. No details on that, but it tells us something..the LW won't just be waiting around for someone to invite them to fill an empty slot..and that PGI WANTS people to be a Lone Wolf, not just a House or Merc unit.
And I can't get behind grabbing a Mech you don't pay for and getting paid, there needs to be a cost involved, which leads to the problem I touched on above
#195
Posted 21 December 2011 - 05:42 PM
#196
Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:20 PM
Just saying, the time frames aren't all that big if the parts are available.
#197
Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:25 PM
Wolvers, on 21 December 2011 - 02:29 PM, said:
That is in no way arguing against what I said. I agree you will be able to tell the difference between the guns (unless they are upgraded versions, not sure if there would be much of a physical difference between an ER Large Laser and a standard Large Laser), therefore your below quote won't change with customization.
//To me, learning all the different 'Mechs and learning how to recognize the variants by looking at its guns was a thrill.//
Don't be a dick, you stated you enjoyed recognizing variants by looking at their guns and discerning their capabilities. So what the hell are you arguing about? If all PPC's will look the same, if all AC/10's will look the same, if all Large Lasers will look the same, then I don't think it would be too much of a problem to get a reasonable idea on a mech's capabilities even if you hadn't seen nor heard anything about the variant/customized/ mech.
Regardless of weapons changes that may change the look of the arms on a mech or even slight changes to the chassis to fit different guns, it will still come up on your HUD as an Atlas-(whatever variant name), Catapult-(whatever variant name). Just like it has done in prior MW games, unlike those, I'm hoping that we'll see actual phyical changes to the mechs when fitted with different weapons.
Please stop being so defensive, I'm not trying to get into a fight with you, and the "I'll draw a picture" thing was not an insult, I meant that seriously (as I'm clearly having trouble to explain what I mean with words). I'm not trying to insult your intelligence...
You're still not getting what I mean though. I'm talking about knowing how to recognize predefined variants as a whole by recognizing some of the weapons on a 'Mech. By being able to easily identify a whole variant by a few key points, it means you don't have to look at all the other weapons, since you know what the variant's specs. You know it can't be something else.
With fully customizable weapons, internals and other parts, you can't know for sure what's inside your opponent's 'Mech because it's not a stock variant anymore.
One of the fun of having stock variants and nothing else, is that the community eventually starts defining tactics to best counter x and y variant. For example, a certain 'Mech variant might be prone to overheating because it has too few heat sinks for the energy weapons it has, and you know that shooting a specific location on it will have good chances to burst its coolant tank...
With unpredictable variants (non-stock), you can't have that anymore and tactics only become centered around the weapons themselves, and not the 'Mechs.
A good analogy to that would be how today's fighter pilots are able to quickly identify a enemy fighter just by its shape (silhouette), paint color, condensation trail and such... They then know the range capabilities of that fighter, possible armament, flight specifications and performance statistics, and its weaknesses as well as it's strengths. This immediately dictates what tactic the pilot will need to employ.
That's what I don't like with full customization. not only it's counter to canon, but it becomes free-for-all, and I don't want that in this game. If that's what it ends up to be, I'll still play, but I'll be very disappointed.
Edited by Tweaks, 21 December 2011 - 06:28 PM.
#198
Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:47 PM
Isnt it more fun to differentiate between the people and the possibilties you might encounter then "Oh another Zeu-Something, ill do x and win"
And predictibility is a weakness, as example, everyone knows i will come with flak/hardenen/tac/g11 in blops, when i take something else and differ my movement my usual foes cannot counter me easy anymore, in 40k i am known to blow up my hq's, whenever i do an odd switch to another tactic, it confuses
I personally find it more fun to adapt to a situation then to already know what to exactly expect and react in a predefined set of "best option"
#199
Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:55 PM
"That's what I don't like with full customization, not only it's counter to canon.."
It's not counter to canon, it's canon from the basic Battledroids up through ALL revisions of the BTech game. The rules on customizing a Mech in TT are pretty simple, clear and easy to follow. And they allow for literally ANYTHING you want to do, from changing out the old PPC on that Panther to a new ERPPC to building a NEW chassis from the ground up and filling it out with everything from the life support systems to armor. It IS canon, no matter how much you may dislike it for whatever reasons. Hell, where do you think the Variants listed in the TROs come from? Customization of the base Mechs by the designers AND players who sent in their designs or they showed off at a convention somewhere.
Wolvers..IF you happen to have the parts sitting around, yeah, it's hours to fix up a Mech from combat damage..but again, that's hours, not instant, not a few minutes. And again, doesn't matter, in TT time doesn't exist. In a video game, it's an important thing because most of us will be using our so called 'Free Time' to play the game..that's time we're not spending with our whatevers. And for a lot of people, it's maybe a few hours a week total. So, they jump in, get into combat, get their Mech torn up, have to replace that engine. That's 6 hours of waiting..for someone who's just spent 30 minutes of the ONLY two hours they'll get to spend in the game for the next week...uh uh...especially not in a F2P game, ain't gonna happen, customers will be beating a path away from your door, not to it. This is one of those places where the TT fans, like myself, have to step back and go 'no, don't do this part of TT, it won't appeal to any but the very hardcore and that will kill the future of the game'.
#200
Posted 21 December 2011 - 07:07 PM
Kristov Kerensky, on 21 December 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:
It's not counter to canon, it's canon from the basic Battledroids up through ALL revisions of the BTech game. The rules on customizing a Mech in TT are pretty simple, clear and easy to follow. And they allow for literally ANYTHING you want to do, from changing out the old PPC on that Panther to a new ERPPC to building a NEW chassis from the ground up and filling it out with everything from the life support systems to armor. It IS canon, no matter how much you may dislike it for whatever reasons. Hell, where do you think the Variants listed in the TROs come from? Customization of the base Mechs by the designers AND players who sent in their designs or they showed off at a convention somewhere.
[...]
To some degree, sure. But if you ever actually tried to incorporate the offical MW RPG (no, P&P, not the computer games ) into your BT gameplay, you'd have gotten an idea how unlikely aka forbiddingly expensive it would be for anyone, and yes, that includes most house units, to get a "personal modification" done. And don't throw Yen-lo-wang at me, that particular wang is an exception on many layers, not the least its pilot being part of the ruling nobility.
So while agreeing with you on the point of the duration of repairs basically, I tend to favour a more strict approach as far as customization is concerned. Sure, make some room for it, but still keep a close lid on what is possible and what not. Fhe former incanations of the MW games (well, excluding MW1) showed all to well where that leads to.
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