128 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

HGAK47, on 26 July 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

Cool run has the added benefit of improving stealth armour in a way, if you run that at all. I have found without max coolrun the engine can generate a bit of heat alone while in stealth. (Not that I really rate stealth armour all that much... just saying)

This is true, cool run impacts your heat efficiency when other sources of heat are involved like Flamers/Stealth Armor/JJs etc while heat gen doesn't.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 July 2017 - 09:45 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Honestly you can do both and only give up 2 structure and 1 armor nodes in survival (right side) still get all heat gen in Firepower and the best goodies in Aux.

Ops tree heat and, to a degree, even hill climb are sting choices for any heat sensitive mech.

[process]

As I understand it:

A = heat generated
B = heat dissipation rate

t = A/B, where t is the time it takes to fully dissipate heat generated.

The comparison between heat gen and cool run, strictly for weapon heat, is:

t_{heat gen} = (0.895)A/B
t_{cool run} = A/(1.1)B

Comparing the two times, A and B cancel out, leaving us with:

t_{heat gen} = 0.895
t_{cool run} = 1/1.1 = 0.909 > 0.895

Thus, investing in every heat gen node will always produce a better dissipation time than with every cool run node, for any weapon heat load A or any heat dissipation rate B.

As others have said, heat gen (probably) only affects weapons, so cool run benefits mechs running equipment like jumpjets and stealth armor. Cool run also has a lower node investment (17 vs 28), although you have to evaluate the other nodes you pick up along the way. I typically find greater value in a heavier investment in the firepower tree than the mech ops tree.

[Davegt27]

I always go heat containment 3 reasons
1) definition = increases the maximum heat threshold before a Mech shuts down
or keeps you fighting longer
2) the bigger the number next to a percent sign go for that number in the case of heat containment its 3%
or your new shut down mark is 115% (if you get all the nodes)
3) you don't have to drill down as far to reach the 15%

the next thing I shoot for is heat Gen at -.75% for a max of -10.5% for (weapons listed)
you have to drill down pretty far to get all the nodes but this is a heat game so that's what I do

next on the list is cool run
is says increases heat dissipation by 2% per node (does not say dissipation rate)
most of the time I don't get all of these

edit: you would think having all this extra capability (mastered Mech)
it would show up with greater combat effectiveness but I really don't see it
which is why I was against the ST
but hey I am playing along

Edited by Davegt27, 26 July 2017 - 08:04 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Davegt27, on 26 July 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

I always go heat containment 3 reasons
1) definition = increases the maximum heat threshold before a Mech shuts down

Keep in mind heat gen does the same thing. By reducing how much heat is generated by weapons it effectively acts like cool run AND heat containment.

[Davegt27]

your right but keep in mind

Quote

3) you don't have to drill down as far to reach the 15%

[Methanoid]

My hellbringer only rocks 4x C-ER MED and 2x C-ER LRG lasers, has 9x C-DBL HEAT SINKS, i have 6x Heat Gen nodes, 5x Cool Run Nodes, 4x Heat Containment Nodes, and i still instantly overheat/shutdown after 3 measly volleys of fire, it takes AGES to cool back down, esp when under fire, I pretty much have to just sit there holding my.... self, doing lots of nothing while i get torn to bits, if i even try to fire off 1 volley while above 1/2 way, its instant overheat/shutdown again.

Tbh, i feel like all of those nodes do such tiny/insignificant amounts of "help" that it really doesnt matter wth you fit or pick node wise, a lot of my mechs feel exactly the same, some ive gone ball sout DBL heat sinks, then changed to 1 or 2 and felt no difference whatsoever, in the case of my HBR only the survival nodes feel of some help.

Heres my current HBR setup if someone wants to rightfully critisize it: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fc3403ff8965c16

For some reason smurfy's aint showing the armor values right, my "free" tonnage is spent on more armor.

[Khobai]

Quote

As others have said, heat gen (probably) only affects weapons, so cool run benefits mechs running equipment like jumpjets and stealth armor. Cool run also has a lower node investment (17 vs 28), although you have to evaluate the other nodes you pick up along the way. I typically find greater value in a heavier investment in the firepower tree than the mech ops tree.

the value of heat gen decreases as your mech gains heat though

if youre at 99% heat, heat gen isnt helping you anymore, because you cant fire your weapons. and heat gen only has value if you can fire your weapons, because it reduces weapon heat.

only cool run is helping you then. cool run is what pushes the heat down when its at the top. not heat gen.

if you find yourself in situations where your heat is always maxed out, then maxing out coolrun is worth it. because more heat gen wont help you in those situations. even if you have 14 points in it, its not helping you one bit.

heatgen and coolrun definitely dont do the same thing.

Edited by Khobai, 26 July 2017 - 02:35 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 26 July 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

only cool run is helping you then. cool run is what pushes the heat down when its at the top. not heat gen.

Except because your weapons are generating less heat per shot, your dissipation rates don't need to be as high to compensate. In other words you can fire at a different percentage than you would without it.

For example, to fire 2 cERLL I would need to dissipate 20 heat when I'm at 100% (for the purpose of this exercise, let's say I don't shutdown). I have a dissipation rate of 4/s, but I get a bonus 10% from cool run, so it is actually 4.4/s. It takes me 4.545454s before I can fire those 2 cERLL with 10% cool run.
Now let's look at 2 cERLL with heat gen nodes. Instead of generating 20 heat, they only generate 18 heat (for simplicity we are just going to round heat gen to 10%). I still have the dissipation rate of 4/s. Guess how long it takes before I can fire again? 4.5s

In other words 10% heat gen actually helps me fire sooner than with 10% cool run (albeit an unnoticeable amount). You just aren't looking at it correctly, heat gen behaves as BOTH cool run AND heat containment.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 July 2017 - 02:42 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Except because your weapons are generating less heat per shot, your dissipation rates don't need to be as high to compensate. In other words you can fire at a different percentage than you would without it. You are looking the wrong way.

no im looking at it from the perspective that my heat is maxed out.

heat gen helps me fire more often before my heat maxes out, thats true, but it doesnt actually help me once my heat is maxed out.

when your heat is maxed out and youre on the verge of overheating, only cool run is helping you lower that heat. heatgen isnt doing jack ****.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 26 July 2017 - 02:38 PM, said:

no im looking at it from the perspective that my heat is maxed out.

heat gen helps me fire more often before my heat maxes out, thats true, but it doesnt actually help me once my heat is maxed out.

when your heat is maxed out and youre on the verge of overheating, only cool run is helping you lower that heat. heatgen isnt doing jack ****.

Look at my post again, I added some stuff to clarify because you are looking at it wrong.

Basically, to match the impact of heat gen with cool run and heat containment you need the following:
Heat containment = Heat Gen%
Cool Run = 1000/(100 - heat gen%)

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 July 2017 - 02:51 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

4 pages without this meme, for shame

[C4NC3R]

tortcat, on 17 May 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

Heat Gen or Cool running. What would be the better choice(s) for an assault mech?

ON an Assault (or Heavy) which do you think is better OR do you feel both are needed?

On assault you go first for:
- Firepower Heat.Gen. Laser duration/Velocity.
- Survivability... as max as you can, cause sutain is your bread and butter.
- Operation... Run Cool/Heat Disp.

Only these three trees you need, rest is for other classes.

Khobai, on 26 July 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

the value of heat gen decreases as your mech gains heat though

if youre at 99% heat, heat gen isnt helping you anymore, because you cant fire your weapons. and heat gen only has value if you can fire your weapons, because it reduces weapon heat.

only cool run is helping you then. cool run is what pushes the heat down when its at the top. not heat gen.

if you find yourself in situations where your heat is always maxed out, then maxing out coolrun is worth it. because more heat gen wont help you in those situations. even if you have 14 points in it, its not helping you one bit.

heatgen and coolrun definitely dont do the same thing.

Actually must have both for the best preformance.

[Khobai]

Quote

In other words 10% heat gen actually helps me fire sooner than with 10% cool run (albeit an unnoticeable amount). You just aren't looking at it correctly, heat gen behaves as BOTH cool run AND heat containment.

but youre also spending way more skill points to get all the heatgens so its not really a fair comparison

coolrun/heatcontainment are worth it if spending skill points efficiently is your goal

sticking all your skill points in weapon tree isnt going to leave you anything for mobility or survivability.

so i dont really see the merit in picking up all the heatgens, I would just get the ones that are convenient for my build

Edited by Khobai, 26 July 2017 - 02:54 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 26 July 2017 - 02:52 PM, said:

but youre also spending way more skill points to get all the heatgens so its not really a fair comparison

coolrun/heatcontainment are worth it if spending skill points efficiently is your goal

14 vs 10, however with the firepower tree, you get more useful things like range and cooldown vs the stuff in operations so spending efficiently is a situational. For things like laser boats for example, heat gen, range, and duration are all useful things that can be gotten through the firepower tree.

Sure if we isolate them, the ops tree is more efficient, but looking at that isolated efficiency is pretty pointless.

Khobai, on 26 July 2017 - 02:52 PM, said:

sticking all your skill points in weapon tree isnt going to leave you anything for mobility or survivability.

You don't need mobility on all mechs, for example it's pretty pointless on a majority if not all assaults. I can max firepower (or close enough), survival, and aux no problem. For some mechs survival isn't that great either so then you can double down and go ops for cool run.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 July 2017 - 02:58 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 July 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

14 vs 10, however with the firepower tree, you get more useful things like range and cooldown vs the stuff in operations so spending efficiently is a situational. For things like laser boats for example, heat gen, range, and duration are all useful things that can be gotten through the firepower tree.

Sure if we isolate them, the ops tree is more efficient, but looking at that isolated efficiency is pretty pointless.


You don't need mobility on all mechs, for example it's pretty pointless on a majority if not all assaults. I can max firepower (or close enough), survival, and aux no problem. For some mechs survival isn't that great either so then you can double down and go ops for cool run.

You can pull 20 out of survival and just give up 1 armor and 2 or 3 structure nodes too. That's enough for OPs. If you've ignored a few range/cooldown nodes in firepower (but grabbed all heat gen and laser duration) you'll have enjoy for left side survival, 20 ops and the good Aux stuff.

[Methanoid]

Khobai, on 26 July 2017 - 02:52 PM, said:

sticking all your skill points in weapon tree isnt going to leave you anything for mobility or survivability.

the nodes are all % based, so adding even a high% worth of nodes into movement or survivability on mechs with low speed/armor/etc bags you insignificant increases.

a 1 million% increase to virtually nothing is still nothing of worth, remember if you wanted a nice speed increase, the nodes only amount to 7.5%, on a mech thats fast, that 7.5% on a pirates bane (153.9kph standard) gets increased to 165.4kph, on a mech thats slow as hell where you would actually want a speed increase like say the dire wolf (48.6kph standard) that same 7.5% speed buff only takes it to 52kph, thats terrible and shows why the skill tree isnt all that great, it only makes areas of your mech that are already decent MUCH better and not allowing you to make up for a mechs weaknesses..

"The Best" nodes to take are not universal they are pretty much 95% locked to the obvious for every mech with a select few unrelated to mech stats being of use like radar derp, ecm, consumable slots etc.

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 July 2017 - 11:11 AM, said:

Keep in mind heat gen does the same thing. By reducing how much heat is generated by weapons it effectively acts like cool run AND heat containment.

This is a super un-intuitive statement (not necessarily wrong, just confusing to read).

Both Heat Gen and Heat Containment do the same thing: they decrease the ratio of heat generated versus heat stored.

What Cool Run does is change the rate heat gets removed, which augments the above by subtracting the removed per second from the heat generated per second. Like those first two, it also raises the limit within which you can safely fire. Once you do reach that limit, however, Heat Containment and Heat Gen no longer do anything for you and dissipation is the most important thing to have.

TL;DR: all three raise your red line, but only Cool Run can improve your output once you've crossed it.

[DrxAbstract]

Generally I go with both, but Heat Gen is far more useful for high heat or rapid-fire DPS applications like PPCs, boating SRMs, Small caliber UACs(2, 5), etc. Cool Run seems better for mid-level heat production builds that spend more time out of the fight than in it, relatively speaking, where you want dissipation rather than a straight reduction.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 July 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

Both Heat Gen and Heat Containment do the same thing: they decrease the ratio of heat generated versus heat stored.

Sure, but because heat gen impacts the heat generated rather than increasing your capacity for heat it means that there is less heat to dissipate which means you can fire more often. I say it behaves like both because to match its effect for weapons, you can't just take heat containment by itself (to change the ratio), you have to take cool run as well.

Yeonne Greene, on 26 July 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

TL;DR: all three raise your red line, but only Cool Run can improve your output once you've crossed it.

Are we talking about crossing past 100% or being heat capped, because if we are talking heat capped, this is false. Both heat gen and cool run impact the time it takes before you can refire (which is what determines your output once you've crossed it) they just do it different ways.

MischiefSC, on 26 July 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

You can pull 20 out of survival and just give up 1 armor and 2 or 3 structure nodes too. That's enough for OPs. If you've ignored a few range/cooldown nodes in firepower (but grabbed all heat gen and laser duration) you'll have enjoy for left side survival, 20 ops and the good Aux stuff.

You want all range modules for laser vomit, even on the clan side, it's not like they are hard to get with heat gen. I would prefer them over the extra containment nodes for example.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 July 2017 - 04:21 PM.