128 replies to this topic

[Palfatreos]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 July 2017 - 04:17 PM, said:

No, they really aren't.

Here's some simple math to prove it:
For a mech with 50% heat efficiency, we get the following:

• 4% Heat gen = 2 dissipation and 3.84 (4 originally) heat generated which translates to 52.08333% heat efficiency
  
• 6% Cool run = 2.12 dissipation (2 originally) and 4 heat generated which translates to 53% heat efficiency
  
• ~1.76% improvement of cool run over heat gen quirks

For a mech with 50% heat efficiency and different dissipation rates, we get the following:

• 4% Heat gen = 4 dissipation and 7.68 (8 originally) heat generated which translates to 52.08333% heat efficiency
  
• 6% Cool run = 4.24 dissipation (4 originally) and 8 heat generated which translates to 53% heat efficiency
  
• ~1.76% improvement of cool run over heat gen quirks

For a mech with 33% heat efficiency, we get the following:

• 4% Heat gen = 2 dissipation and 5.76 (6 originally) heat generated which translates to 34.7222% heat efficiency
  
• 6% Cool run = 2.12 dissipation (2 originally) and 6 heat generated which translates to 35.333% heat efficiency
  
• ~1.76% improvement of cool run over heat gen quirks

The advantages of cool run over heat gen are ambivalent to the heat load (and vice versa, the advantages are ambivalent to how many DHS you run).

i agree on your math by using heat eff to compare heat gen vs cool run and that 10% heat gen always has better heat eff. then 10% cool run. having 1 heatsink or 10000 heatsink will not change this.

My question is how did you get the 1.76% improvement?

Goodluck trying to convince the people who misunderstand the game mechanic though.

I simply take both nodes most time anyway since most my mech are hot mechs (low heat eff.)
But if i had to choose i would take heat gen even though they cost more SP i would have take those other node either way while on he other tree i would never have taken them if cool run wasnt in that tree.

Edited by Palfatreos, 26 July 2017 - 05:13 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Palfatreos, on 26 July 2017 - 05:04 PM, said:

My question is how did you get the 1.76% improvement?

Divided the higher heat efficiency by the lower one, the advantage increases the higher the percentages of heat gen.

[Methanoid]

do people even recognise any noticable difference either way on mechs that run hot, i rarely notice any difference of use?

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 July 2017 - 04:17 PM, said:

Are we talking about crossing past 100% or being heat capped, because if we are talking heat capped, this is false. Both heat gen and cool run impact the time it takes before you can refire (which is what determines your output once you've crossed it) they just do it different ways.

Heat capped, and I know that and I already accounted for that. That's our theoretical "red line". More relative cap means that you don't need as much free cap to fire, but once you are within that space, Cool Run is the only thing that can help you drop to the line faster outside of having more sinks. It's not false, that is just how the system works.

[Wildstreak]

Depends on build.

Heat Gen affects heat made when firing.

Cool Run affects how quick you cool off so lessens the time you spend under cover waiting for the scale to go down. The problem with maxing Cool Run is need to go through so much of its tree to get all the nodes.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Khobai, on 26 July 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

the value of heat gen decreases as your mech gains heat though

if youre at 99% heat, heat gen isnt helping you anymore, because you cant fire your weapons. and heat gen only has value if you can fire your weapons, because it reduces weapon heat.

only cool run is helping you then. cool run is what pushes the heat down when its at the top. not heat gen.

if you find yourself in situations where your heat is always maxed out, then maxing out coolrun is worth it. because more heat gen wont help you in those situations. even if you have 14 points in it, its not helping you one bit.

heatgen and coolrun definitely dont do the same thing.

This is the point I was trying to make earlier. When you reach max heat, you can't fire your weapons period, not without shutting down. No amount of heat gen is going to change this. At this point and lets be honest here, if you are really being active like you should be in a match, you should theoretically always be pushing against your max heat threshold and dissipating that heat quickly becomes essential. I don't think people are factoring this in completely when they do their math.

Also if you do find yourself in a lull in the fighting, the faster you get back to zero heat the better because you never know when your going to be forced into a balls to the wall firefight and will need all the heat you can scrape up. Basically you have to look at practical application and factor that in to your evaluation, not just look at the theoretical numbers.

As for myself, I have determined that unless your running a extremely cool build, this isn't even an either, or type of question because you should get both. My favorite mech currently oddly enough is my Executioner. Originally because of the sheer size of the Executioner, I spec'ed heavily in durability because I knew I was going to get hit more often than quite a few other mechs. However, I have since dropped all nodes in Survival and went full firepower and operations in order to get the most out of my firepower and lets just say I am not even remotely looking back.

[Vxheous]

Wildstreak, on 26 July 2017 - 06:35 PM, said:

Depends on build.

Heat Gen affects heat made when firing.

Cool Run affects how quick you cool off so lessens the time you spend under cover waiting for the scale to go down. The problem with maxing Cool Run is need to go through so much of its tree to get all the nodes.

Sad thing is (and this is tested side by side with identical mechs, different trees) max cool run gets you from 100% to 0% cool ~.75 sec faster than not having any cool run. So yeah, you "cool" faster, but the difference is so small, that it's basically not worth having the pts invested.

[Khobai]

max cool run should probably be 15% instead of only 10%

then it would be more like we have real double heatsinks

[Lily from animove]

Palfatreos, on 26 July 2017 - 05:04 PM, said:

i agree on your math by using heat eff to compare heat gen vs cool run and that 10% heat gen always has better heat eff. then 10% cool run. having 1 heatsink or 10000 heatsink will not change this.

My question is how did you get the 1.76% improvement?

Goodluck trying to convince the people who misunderstand the game mechanic though.

I simply take both nodes most time anyway since most my mech are hot mechs (low heat eff.)
But if i had to choose i would take heat gen even though they cost more SP i would have take those other node either way while on he other tree i would never have taken them if cool run wasnt in that tree.

ther eis still more, heat gen only applies if you shoot wepaons, cool run is omnipresent. cool run also affects masc and other heat up abilities.

Methanoid, on 26 July 2017 - 03:25 PM, said:

the nodes are all % based, so adding even a high% worth of nodes into movement or survivability on mechs with low speed/armor/etc bags you insignificant increases.

a 1 million% increase to virtually nothing is still nothing of worth, remember if you wanted a nice speed increase, the nodes only amount to 7.5%, on a mech thats fast, that 7.5% on a pirates bane (153.9kph standard) gets increased to 165.4kph, on a mech thats slow as hell where you would actually want a speed increase like say the dire wolf (48.6kph standard) that same 7.5% speed buff only takes it to 52kph, thats terrible and shows why the skill tree isnt all that great, it only makes areas of your mech that are already decent MUCH better and not allowing you to make up for a mechs weaknesses..

"The Best" nodes to take are not universal they are pretty much 95% locked to the obvious for every mech with a select few unrelated to mech stats being of use like radar derp, ecm, consumable slots etc.

on assaults that can be quite alot HP
on lights not so much.

Edited by Lily from animove, 26 July 2017 - 11:04 PM.

[Its my first day]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 26 July 2017 - 08:11 PM, said:

Sad thing is (and this is tested side by side with identical mechs, different trees) max cool run gets you from 100% to 0% cool ~.75 sec faster than not having any cool run. So yeah, you "cool" faster, but the difference is so small, that it's basically not worth having the pts invested.

When the public test was running, I tested a TBR laser vomit with max heat sinks, and a LBK with about four heatsinks with and without all the cool run nodes. Difference on both from around 90% heat to zero was, as you say, about a second-one was an average of 20 to 19 seconds, one was 15 to 14 seconds, iirc. I stopped bothering with cool run nodes after that. It also disproved the idea I've seen that cool run has more of an effect with mechs that have more heatsinks.

I think I did see a difference with the heat gen nodes, though, but I didnt test that one very thoroughly.

[DrxAbstract]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 July 2017 - 11:11 AM, said:

Keep in mind heat gen does the same thing. By reducing how much heat is generated by weapons it effectively acts like cool run AND heat containment.

Have to disagree with Heat Gen acting as both, as it is functionally identical to Heat Containment where your heat threshold is modified.

Heat Containment's effect is directly proportional to your Heat Sinks while Heat Gen is based on weapon output, which means packing on more Heat Sinks or Weapons will lean more in favor of one or the other (It is possible to have builds benefit the same amount from either), though Energy builds tend to benefit more from having Heat Containment, and by extension Cool Run, than Heat Gen due to the nature of their effects scaling with Heat Sinks--Strictly if you had to choose between one or the other, taking heat efficiency as the only consideration.

The comparison should always have Heat Containment and Cool Run being opposite of Heat Gen, given you essentially get both while descending the Operations Tree, but Heat Gen definitely doesn't behave like both. Factoring both in tandem rather than separately, against Heat Gen, you'll find in most cases Cool Run and Heat Containment provide a cumulative effect that results in better heat efficiency than Heat Gen.

[Widowmaker1981]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 July 2017 - 05:09 PM, said:

Things about heat gen / cool run

I can see you've done the maths, but can you explain why this is wrong?

Compare a Shadow Cat with 2xERPPC and 13 DHS to a HBK-IIC 2xERPPC with 22 DHS.

They both have the exact same weapons and (ignoring minor quirks) therefore generate heat at exactly the same rate when firing on cooldown. As such they should both get identical benefit from the heat generation nodes, yes?

Cool run however adds a percentage to the mechs dissipation, which has a higher base value for the Hunchback than the Scat due to the hunchback having more heatsinks... therefore the Hunchback gets more benefit than the Shadow Cat from cool run.

Therefore the relationship between the value of heat gen nodes and cool run nodes varies depending on the number of DHS installed, surely?

Can you explain why that is wrong? Logically, not just using %s with heat efficiency, which is a bit too abstract to explain why the above logic is faulty.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 27 July 2017 - 03:41 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Viktor Drake, on 26 July 2017 - 07:54 PM, said:

This is the point I was trying to make earlier. When you reach max heat, you can't fire your weapons period, not without shutting down. No amount of heat gen is going to change this.

Except heat gen changes the point at which you can refire because your weapons generate less heat. Sure you don't cooldown from max heat to 0 as fast, but the damage you can do while you are heat capped is the same because again, weapons generate less heat which raises the percentage at which you can refire. Again, while I get what Yeonne is trying to say about heat gen and containment both affecting thresholds, but it's important to understand that containment ONLY impacts burst damage while heat gen affects BOTH burst and sustained (because you can do damage for less heat).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 July 2017 - 06:52 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DrxAbstract, on 27 July 2017 - 01:41 AM, said:

Factoring both in tandem rather than separately, against Heat Gen, you'll find in most cases Cool Run and Heat Containment provide a cumulative effect that results in better heat efficiency than Heat Gen.

Again, no, for similar performance here is what you need for cool run and heat containment to match heat gen's impact:

So given that, I'll put up an example. Say I have a 20% heat gen quirk, to match that burst and sustained damage potential with cool run/heat containment I need 25% in heat containment and I would need 25% in cool run.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 July 2017 - 06:21 AM.

[Appogee]

Davegt27, on 17 May 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

my opinion is PGI does not want people re-specing there mechs which is the reason for the re-spec costs

You have that completely back to front. PGI introduced re-spec costs to create both CBill and XP sinks.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Widowmaker1981, on 27 July 2017 - 03:41 AM, said:

I can see you've done the maths, but can you explain why this is wrong?

Compare a Shadow Cat with 2xERPPC and 13 DHS to a HBK-IIC 2xERPPC with 22 DHS.

They both have the exact same weapons and (ignoring minor quirks) therefore generate heat at exactly the same rate when firing on cooldown. As such they should both get identical benefit from the heat generation nodes, yes?

Cool run however adds a percentage to the mechs dissipation, which has a higher base value for the Hunchback than the Scat due to the hunchback having more heatsinks... therefore the Hunchback gets more benefit than the Shadow Cat from cool run.

Therefore the relationship between the value of heat gen nodes and cool run nodes varies depending on the number of DHS installed, surely?

Can you explain why that is wrong? Logically, not just using %s with heat efficiency, which is a bit too abstract to explain why the above logic is faulty.

mat3049 had a decent analogy on reddit about this topic:

mat3049 said:

Quote

This is a multivariate problem - it depends on the Heat Per Second of your loadout, the number of heat sinks, and heat dissipation/generation quirks on the mech. Let's assume 10 true doubles and x (working at 0.15 HPS) inserted double heatsinks
To break it down, one heat reduction node gives -0.75% heat reduction and one Cooldown node gives +2% dissipation
Our formula for the effect of picking one node over another would be:
HPS•(100%-0.75%)=(x•.15+10•.2)(100%+2%)
Let's say you have 2 RACs, with HPS of 8 total, one heatgen node gives you a reduction in HPS of 0.06 HPS
To equal or exceed this effect, if my math is correct, 7 inserted doubles are needed.
Of course, if you ran a lower HPS loadout, the effect of the heatgen nodes would be less pronounced, and fewer heatsinks would need to be taken to equal the effect.

Partially correct.
You're forgetting the DPHPS values for weapon systems. In reality, you will see that no matter how many heat sinks (or what kind they are), Cool Run and Heat Gen have the same scaling effect, so there isn't a "break-even" point for the nodes.
Edit: Here's an analogy.
Would you rather have more money, or have lower prices, or some combination therein?

To add to this, remember that having heat gen improves your heat to damage ratio, meaning that the heat dissipated by DHS even though they are less powerful can still buy you more damage than you would otherwise which is why number of heat sinks is irrelevant, because remember, everything is connected in this particular case, you have to remember not just about how much heat is dissipated and such, but what that heat dissipation buys you.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 July 2017 - 07:07 AM.

[Wyald Katt]

So, Heat Containment, did they ever come out and say if it's affecting all of the heatsinks or only the base ones? Last I puzzled out from all the proofs and comments was that it was only bumping up your heat max by 4.5, which can't be "right".

I might be failing at searching, or reading comprehension or something, but it'd be nice to get an official word from someone officially.

Edited by Wyald Katt, 27 July 2017 - 07:16 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wyald Katt, on 27 July 2017 - 07:15 AM, said:

So, Heat Containment, did they ever come out and say if it's affecting all of the heatsinks or only the base ones?

Check like page 2 of this thread.

[Wyald Katt]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 July 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

Check like page 2 of this thread.

Great. And now I have to get my eyes checked for color blindness.

But thanks!

[FupDup]

I still don't see much reason not to get all three at the same time (Heat Gen + Heat Cont + Cool Run) unless you're running a particularly cool build. If you're laser or PPC vomiting then you definitely need all of the heat efficiency you can get.