128 replies to this topic

[Old-dirty B]

Prosperity Park, on 17 May 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

Cool run gets you more heat management per node if you only count those particular nodes. Generating 0.75% less heat is not as good as dissipating 2% more heat, in my opinion.

This is a false statement.

You cant just compare these two basic / raw numbers, first you have to bring both on the same scale, heat per sec. Heat gen reduces positve heat per sec (heat gain) while coolrun improves negative heat per sec (heat loss).
In general / most builds produce about 2 to 3 times more heat then they loose per sec. On a build that has 2.666 times more heat gain then loss you break even.

In general less heat efficient builds (+/- 37% cooling efficiency) gain more from heat gen nodes then coolrun nodes.

Edited by B3R3ND, 17 May 2017 - 03:49 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Foxwalker, on 17 May 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

I am having a hard time deciding between Operations vs Weapon Skill tree for heat management.

For Operations, you have to take a bunch of silly stuff to get to the Heat Containment and Cool Run,
On the other hand, the Heat Gen while less per node is nicely inter-spaced between needed stuff like Cool down, Velocity and Range modifiers.

I am torn. I guess I am going to waste a lot of XP and C-Bills till the number cruncher guys come up with the best meta for this stuff.

What silly stuff are you taking about in Operations?

Reduced Shutdown. I don't know about you but even really good player will occasionally push themselves into Overheating and shutdown. Being able to recover 35% faster in that situation is huge.

Improved Gyros. 70% reduction in shake when being hammered by UACs or Missiles can be pretty darn useful.

Hill Climb. Ok not great but not bad either. 15% reduction in speed loss when climbing hills can actually be pretty huge. This could mean the difference between being able to being able to get up to the next level in Canyon Networks or getting stuck down in a trench, at least for non-JJ mechs so really not bad to have at all.

And this is with a 22 point investment.

With Weapons, I am investing a minimum of 28 point to get all the Heat Gen skills, and the only side benefit I am getting is 5% to weapons range, 1/2 longer Gauss Charge hold time, -2.5% missile spread, -5% LBX spread and -3.75% weapons cool down.

I guess if your planning a very heavy investment into Weapons then it makes sense but when your talking about a minimum point investment, Ops clearly gives you more useful skills with a smaller investment.

[Deathlike]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 May 2017 - 11:38 AM, said:

Cool run unless you plan on heavily investing into firepower. It takes more than 10 heat gen nodes to overcome cool run.

How many heat gen nodes would actually be equivalent to a coolrun node though?

That is more important to know.

Mind you, coolrun becomes more effective when you have more DHS (HS) to work with, but I'm kinda assuming the case of the bare min of 10 (Lights and many other builds) vs something DHS heavy like Battlemasters (18-19 IS DHS) or stupidly hot Clan Mech builds (~24+ DHS).

Viktor Drake, on 17 May 2017 - 03:40 PM, said:

Reduced Shutdown. I don't know about you but even really good player will occasionally push themselves into Overheating and shutdown. Being able to recover 35% faster in that situation is huge.

Unless you overheat behind a hill, overheating in the open reduces your own TTK, and no bonus value/buff to that specific skill is going to magically improve your TTK.

[Nightmare1]

I think Cool Run over Weapon Heat Generation. If I recall correctly, you don't have to invest as many nodes to get Cool Run.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Deathlike, on 17 May 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:

How many heat gen nodes would actually be equivalent to a coolrun node though?

That is more important to know.

Mind you, coolrun becomes more effective when you have more DHS (HS) to work with, but I'm kinda assuming the case of the bare min of 10 (Lights and many other builds) vs something DHS heavy like Battlemasters (18-19 IS DHS) or stupidly hot Clan Mech builds (~24+ DHS).



Unless you overheat behind a hill, overheating in the open reduces your own TTK, and no bonus value/buff to that specific skill is going to magically improve your TTK.

Not sure where your coming up with this. I don't know the exact figure but lets say a normal shutdown without skills take 10 seconds to recover from so with skills that goes down to 6.5 seconds. That is 3.5 seconds less time I am helpless and 3.5 seconds more time that I am active and firing. That 3.5 seconds is most definitely going to reduce my TTK and also increase my alive and shooting capability as well.

[Deathlike]

Viktor Drake, on 17 May 2017 - 04:13 PM, said:

Not sure where your coming up with this. I don't know the exact figure but lets say a normal shutdown without skills take 10 seconds to recover from so with skills that goes down to 6.5 seconds. That is 3.5 seconds less time I am helpless and 3.5 seconds more time that I am active and firing. That 3.5 seconds is most definitely going to reduce my TTK and also increase my alive and shooting capability as well.

When you're shut down in the middle of focus fire, you're pretty much dead.

I don't know how many games you've played in where focus fire was a thing, but when mistakes are made, mechs get punished.

[Vxheous]

You also have to keep in mind the gating to get to max cool run and max heat containment, vs pretty much every single pt in the weapon tree being useful, even if each individual heat gen node is less % than cool run and heat containment. Also, is heat containment still only affecting base heat cap (30 cap) or does heat containment now increase total heat cap? I ask this because 15% heat containment = 4.5 extra on heat cap if it's based on the 30 base cap number, but 15% on total cap (usually around 60 once double heatsinks are counted) would be like an additional 9 on heat cap.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 17 May 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:

How many heat gen nodes would actually be equivalent to a coolrun node though?

Seems like roughly 13. Which puts it at equivalent to 5 cool run and 3 heat containment.

[Chris Lowrey]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 17 May 2017 - 04:30 PM, said:

Also, is heat containment still only affecting base heat cap (30 cap) or does heat containment now increase total heat cap? I ask this because 15% heat containment = 4.5 extra on heat cap if it's based on the 30 base cap number, but 15% on total cap (usually around 60 once double heatsinks are counted) would be like an additional 9 on heat cap.

Don't want to get in the way of the discussion, but just want to poke in and say that Heat Containment factors in the total heat threshold of the 'Mech (Base + Value gained through your heatsinks,) and cool run factors in your total heat sink efficiency.

Hope that clears it up. Debate away.

[Vxheous]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 May 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

Seems like roughly 13. Which puts it at equivalent to 5 cool run and 3 heat containment.

It takes 21 pts to get the full cool run and heat containment in operations (including gated pts) while heatgen nodes in the weapons tree aren't gated by useless pts. I feel like I give up too many other good nodes in other trees in order to find 21 pts into operations.

Chris Lowrey, on 17 May 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

Don't want to get in the way of the discussion, but just want to poke in and say that Heat Containment factors in the total heat threshold of the 'Mech (Base + Value gained through you heatsinks,) and cool run factors in your total heat sink efficiency.

Hope that clears it up. Debate away.

Can we get an update about when this is getting fixed? I can't play my Hunchbacks at all because of this bug:

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 17 May 2017 - 05:14 PM.

[Chris Lowrey]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 17 May 2017 - 05:12 PM, said:

Can we get an update about when this is getting fixed? I can't play my Hunchbacks at all because of this bug:

"Soon™" is sadly all I can say on that image. This is a known issue and it is being looked into. That bug is outside of my wheelhouse so I can't comment on anything beyond that.

[GrimRiver]

Coolrun first, as you invest more points heatgen comes 2nd.

If low on points invest in the first 2 heat related nodes in ops tree then the rest in wherever you wish.

If you got enough points then go for coolrun first and then invest for heatgen while you spec firepower tree.

[FupDup]

I would probably grab all three types of heat nodes (cool run, heat cont, heat gen) on a typical energy build because heat is always the primary limiting bottleneck in terms of damage output.

[Damnedtroll]

Heat management value doesn't change so i don't know if something change or not ?

[Deathlike]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 May 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

Seems like roughly 13. Which puts it at equivalent to 5 cool run and 3 heat containment.

Is coolrun and heat containment worth the same though? I suspect coolrun has more of an impact than Heat Containment, but obviously again it's very dependent on build (probably worth less on a mech that runs on the base DHS bonus, than something that is DHS capped to the max).

Edited by Deathlike, 17 May 2017 - 05:27 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 17 May 2017 - 05:12 PM, said:

It takes 21 pts to get the full cool run and heat containment in operations (including gated pts)

It only takes 20.

Deathlike, on 17 May 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

Is coolrun and heat containment worth the same though? I suspect coolrun has more of an impact than Heat Containment, but obviously again it's very dependent on build (probably worth less on a mech that runs on the base DHS bonus, than something that is DHS capped to the max).

Cool run is more important, but at the same time, you can't avoid 3 of the heat containment nodes so you might as well take all of them.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

If you're taking just one of them, generally speaking it's going to be Heat Gen Reduction. Unless you're on a totally hardpoint and tonnage starved mech, you'll be generating way more heat than you would be dissipating. However, that being said, having both of them makes them more effective multiplicatively. Simply because not only are you generating less heat per point of damage you're putting out, you're also dissipating said heat more quickly.

[XX Sulla XX]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 17 May 2017 - 05:12 PM, said:

It takes 21 pts to get the full cool run and heat containment in operations (including gated pts) while heatgen nodes in the weapons tree aren't gated by useless pts. I feel like I give up too many other good nodes in other trees in order to find 21 pts into operations.



Can we get an update about when this is getting fixed? I can't play my Hunchbacks at all because of this bug:

It takes 20.

FupDup, on 17 May 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:

I would probably grab all three types of heat nodes (cool run, heat cont, heat gen) on a typical energy build because heat is always the primary limiting bottleneck in terms of damage output.

Exactly.

[Vxheous]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 May 2017 - 05:42 PM, said:

It only takes 20.


Cool run is more important, but at the same time, you can't avoid 3 of the heat containment nodes so you might as well take all of them.

Yeah, I see it's 20, I accidently put one more pt in when glancing over it.

We just spent the last hour testing near max heat gen from firepower (minus 1 pt of heat gen)and no ops pts at all) vs full cool run full heat containment and 5% heat gen on identical 2LPL/4ERML Timberwolves. While the heat bar on on the OPs mech was ~2-3% lower per alpha vs the Firepower mech, they both hit 0 heat at the same time (this is on two computers in the same room, side by side, fired at the same time). Either the 10% cool run makes virtually no difference, or PGI's coding is off.

Edit: We tested all heat extremes by testing on Frozen City as extreme cold, Canyon Network and Forest Colony as normal, and Tourmaline and Terra Therma as extreme hot. On all maps, the mech dissipation was exactly the same, with or without 10% cool run.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 18 May 2017 - 09:10 AM.

[S p a n i a r d]

Heat Gen nodes are better in mechs wherein you do not use a lot of external heat sinks.
I'm sure of that. Haven't bothered to find out the number of Hsinks wherein Cool Run will be better
since I do not use heavy-Hsink mechs. Hence I consider the Cool Run tree just optional.