284 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

metallio, on 26 May 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

So...if you all want FP to be group only...

What's the harm in having a QP-style solo queue?

You already can't get games. It's b!tched about constantly here in the forums.

You already have problems with seal clubbing.

You already don't want solos playing in your group queue.

You already don't want new players playing with you.

WTF does it hurt for them to play and learn these game modes and maps in a quick play style mode?

Are you really going to lose group players to that solo queue? How? Your group play population is already on life support and doing so badly that talking about pulling the plug isn't even hypothetical anymore.

Are you worried that there will be seal clubbing in the solo queue? ...ok...? What's different for the new player there or the advanced player? The absolute worst it could possibly be is the current situation in group queue.

Are you worried people will like it better? ...well...good for them? It's not going to shut down the group queue so who cares? You? Are you the reason people can't play even the tiniest bit of advanced mechwarrior that we all wanted solo? Because...why? Because you won't lose anything?

How could your experience in your little corner of the internet change?

Tuk3 was a giant mess of PuGs and was a great example of what it'd look like if we just had a solo queue for FP. People played the cr@p out of it and undisciplined group vs undisciplined group turned out to be pretty good games while the FP snobs were fighting over points in the scouting queue.

...do you really think having more people enjoying FP style combat will result in FEWER people in your group queue?

That's about as asinine a concept as I've heard all year and I've been keeping track of both PGI and POTUS twitters.

Make a solo queue. Make it available to everyone just as easily as QP is. Make it not count towards planet ownership, fine. Let people play the damn game.

Someone wasn't here for synch drop days. Guys, remember those?

You think this is bad?

Wait until you get 3-4 people of the same unit "accidentally" (on purpose, or by genuine accident) show up on the same team in FP QP.

You wanna learn the mode? We've all been repeating the same answer to that demand since day 1 of CW literally. Hop on TS, ask people for advice in forums, or on TS, and practice. You don't need to be in a unit, you don't need to be in a group to do that, you just need to have the will to go "hey guys, I'm new here. What do I do?"

What, you think we were all born knowing how to play CW? I haven't done a CW drop in a while, but when I dropped solo, on a map I've never been on, I asked people, and followed the group, working with them.

---

As previously mentioned in my longer post: "Solo" isn't referring to someone dropping alone. It refers to a specific mentality and mindset. One that almost everyone holds to be cancerous. The idea of dropping alone, not working with your team, and thus harming their chances of winning the match, thus ruining the game for them.

---

Edited by IraqiWalker, 26 May 2017 - 03:13 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Hamerclone, on 26 May 2017 - 08:27 AM, said:

Losing every day, is an *** kicking regardless of the stats, so your point is moot!

If you think a 4% swing is a donkey kicking, then you have no idea what you are talking about.

If it was 80% Clan to 20% IS - that, is a donkey kicking.

Overall stats show that the hyperbole of "Clan OP" wasn't actually that OP. Most matches we played as IS against teams (and there were many) were excellent, quite well balanced and reasonable close each time.

PFC Carsten, on 26 May 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

How long has this been the excuse for fans of the handle of the seal club? Not saying you're one, but still. I dare say that FaP stomping experience, warning sings or no, has driven more new players away - maybe from the game as a whole - than waiting times.

FP3 drove the population away, it's never recovered. I know that is quite historical now but the flow on effects of it have been disastrous.

The problem with the splitting is right now in Oceanic and late US/Early EU - a full 10-12hrs of a 24hr period in MWO - It just won't work.

Groups needs solo's to fill them out. Over that 10-12hr period rarely have I dropped with more than a 4-6 man over 5 days a week. The wait / search time can be over 10mins just to get a lobby (waiting for solo's) and then a further 6-10mins to actually get opposition.

That is as IS or Clan, it doesn't matter which side of the fence I'm on.

I mean I am an absolute proponent of "build it and they will come", but in this instance the reaction would be that severe it would damage the mode even further because of even worse wait times for almost half a 24hr cycle. The pain before gain would be too great.

[Burning2nd]

iF THEY where smart they would listen to my suggestions and make a spin off of faction which is nothing more then a map/planet that you can enter and exit at will..

keep spawning..
keep dieing
keep killing

unlimited spawn 3 hour map time

[naterist]

metallio, on 26 May 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

So...if you all want FP to be group only...

What's the harm in having a QP-style solo queue?

You already can't get games. It's b!tched about constantly here in the forums.

You already have problems with seal clubbing.

You already don't want solos playing in your group queue.

You already don't want new players playing with you.

WTF does it hurt for them to play and learn these game modes and maps in a quick play style mode?

Are you really going to lose group players to that solo queue? How? Your group play population is already on life support and doing so badly that talking about pulling the plug isn't even hypothetical anymore.

Are you worried that there will be seal clubbing in the solo queue? ...ok...? What's different for the new player there or the advanced player? The absolute worst it could possibly be is the current situation in group queue.

Are you worried people will like it better? ...well...good for them? It's not going to shut down the group queue so who cares? You? Are you the reason people can't play even the tiniest bit of advanced mechwarrior that we all wanted solo? Because...why? Because you won't lose anything?

How could your experience in your little corner of the internet change?

Tuk3 was a giant mess of PuGs and was a great example of what it'd look like if we just had a solo queue for FP. People played the cr@p out of it and undisciplined group vs undisciplined group turned out to be pretty good games while the FP snobs were fighting over points in the scouting queue.

...do you really think having more people enjoying FP style combat will result in FEWER people in your group queue?

That's about as asinine a concept as I've heard all year and I've been keeping track of both PGI and POTUS twitters.

Make a solo queue. Make it available to everyone just as easily as QP is. Make it not count towards planet ownership, fine. Let people play the damn game.

i feel like you took the words right outta my mouth.

metallio, you are my spirit animal.

[KingCobra]

metallio, on 26 May 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

So...if you all want FP to be group only...

What's the harm in having a QP-style solo queue?

You already can't get games. It's b!tched about constantly here in the forums.

You already have problems with seal clubbing.

You already don't want solos playing in your group queue.

You already don't want new players playing with you.

WTF does it hurt for them to play and learn these game modes and maps in a quick play style mode?

Are you really going to lose group players to that solo queue? How? Your group play population is already on life support and doing so badly that talking about pulling the plug isn't even hypothetical anymore.

Are you worried that there will be seal clubbing in the solo queue? ...ok...? What's different for the new player there or the advanced player? The absolute worst it could possibly be is the current situation in group queue.

Are you worried people will like it better? ...well...good for them? It's not going to shut down the group queue so who cares? You? Are you the reason people can't play even the tiniest bit of advanced mechwarrior that we all wanted solo? Because...why? Because you won't lose anything?

How could your experience in your little corner of the internet change?

Tuk3 was a giant mess of PuGs and was a great example of what it'd look like if we just had a solo queue for FP. People played the cr@p out of it and undisciplined group vs undisciplined group turned out to be pretty good games while the FP snobs were fighting over points in the scouting queue.

...do you really think having more people enjoying FP style combat will result in FEWER people in your group queue?

That's about as asinine a concept as I've heard all year and I've been keeping track of both PGI and POTUS twitters.

Make a solo queue. Make it available to everyone just as easily as QP is. Make it not count towards planet ownership, fine. Let people play the damn game.

I CAN TELL YOU THIS GUY SAID IT BEST SO FAR IN THIS THREAD congrats.

If they do make a solo queue in FP that's where I will be when im not playing in a unit or have a unit of my own I would gladly give up solo mm battles except when im feeling the need to play PUGBALL.

[Carl Vickers]

Good players will dominate/carry a match whether solo or in a group, splitting the queues is NOT the answer, getting gud is.

Group up, get on the TS hubs, join a unit, learn to play better is the only way this mode works.

[Commander A9]

We've been telling them this for years, Carl. People would rather scream to PGI for some kind of artificial relief than take ownership of their actions when they lose.

It's a classic deflection of responsibility. It can't possibly be that the individual pilot sucks, it must OBVIOUSLY be that the opposition is cheating, they have no lives, their technology is overpowered at the design level, the maps are terrible, or the mode doesn't benefit them.

They'd rather change the environment to suit their own styles rather than adapt to the environment.

And that is never ever going to happen.

[Carl Vickers]

Commander A9, on 26 May 2017 - 10:53 PM, said:

We've been telling them this for years, Carl. People would rather scream to PGI for some kind of artificial relief than take ownership of their actions when they lose.

It's a classic deflection of responsibility. It can't possibly be that the individual pilot sucks, it must OBVIOUSLY be that the opposition is cheating, they have no lives, their technology is overpowered at the design level, the maps are terrible, or the mode doesn't benefit them.

They'd rather change the environment to suit their own styles rather than adapt to the environment.

And that is never ever going to happen.

QFT

If I can git gud anyone can, if u dont git gud you have no one to blame but yourself.

[TWIAFU]

KingCobra, on 26 May 2017 - 07:55 AM, said:

Back when MWO started us old guard MW1/TT players told PGI it needed a huge social lobby system to help new players communicate and find other players for advice and finding units to play CW in did they listen? HELLL NO!!!!! in there ignorance they have lost 500,000 + players because MWO becomes boring and monotonous day after day with no Social options to break it up.

And now what happens now that they have that lobby? Faction, IS, Clan Chat. Yep, sits there unused. VOIP? Another solution for pugs to combat groups, and totally unused.

So yea, PUGs HAVE the social options now that they been asking for to compete with organized groups. Blame for choosing to not use them only falls onto the pugs.

Same thing with LFG. Not used.

Now that PGI listens and delivered, finally, on these thing that the pugs asked for they are not used yet the complaint on how evil groups are in the group queue persist. Why? The lack of tools were an excuse. It was and is BS.

The very people that demanded these tools for even footing do not use the tools to put them on even footing all the while still complain about unorganized vs organized.

Dont want to use tools available, fine.

Want to play solo, in the group queue AND in the deep end, fine.

Choose to ignore the warning and blame everything else for failing, fine.

Want to get sympathy for making those choices, not going to happen.


I suggest going a different route, allow solo play in THE group only queue, not CW.

Hamerclone, on 26 May 2017 - 08:27 AM, said:

Losing every day, is an *** kicking regardless of the stats, so your point is moot!

Playing solo in the group queue is asking to fail.

Why are you choosing to fail right from the start? Seems pretty dumb to me.

[TWIAFU]

KingCobra, on 26 May 2017 - 04:34 PM, said:

I CAN TELL YOU THIS GUY SAID IT BEST SO FAR IN THIS THREAD congrats.

If they do make a solo queue in FP that's where I will be when im not playing in a unit or have a unit of my own I would gladly give up solo mm battles except when im feeling the need to play PUGBALL.

Going to play without LP, MC? That means no bay farming unless you actually play CW and not qp farming with respawn.

[KingCobra]

TWIAFU, on 27 May 2017 - 03:24 AM, said:

And now what happens now that they have that lobby? Faction, IS, Clan Chat. Yep, sits there unused. VOIP? Another solution for pugs to combat groups, and totally unused.

So yea, PUGs HAVE the social options now that they been asking for to compete with organized groups. Blame for choosing to not use them only falls onto the pugs.

Same thing with LFG. Not used.

Now that PGI listens and delivered, finally, on these thing that the pugs asked for they are not used yet the complaint on how evil groups are in the group queue persist. Why? The lack of tools were an excuse. It was and is BS.

The very people that demanded these tools for even footing do not use the tools to put them on even footing all the while still complain about unorganized vs organized.

Dont want to use tools available, fine.

Want to play solo, in the group queue AND in the deep end, fine.

Choose to ignore the warning and blame everything else for failing, fine.

Want to get sympathy for making those choices, not going to happen.


I suggest going a different route, allow solo play in THE group only queue, not CW.




Playing solo in the group queue is asking to fail.

Why are you choosing to fail right from the start? Seems pretty dumb to me.

Your out of your mind if you think what we have now as a social lobby system is anything great its a joke and nothing like im talking about look below is what's needed in the front of the UI on a tab.


Going to play without LP, MC? That means no bay farming unless you actually play CW and not qp farming with respawn.


In any type of game mode there needs to be rewards or no one will play it.

[Leggin Ho]

Ahhh memories of the old MS Gaming Zone and MW 4.................

[MischiefSC]

We need a ton of tools like a lobby system to help build groups. We need a ton of tools to help grow both the FW and, for that matter, the comp scene. Both work by work of mouth and luck. I'm a huge proponent of better tools for players to group up and coordinate.

A FW pug queue will have the same number of stomps and farming. Still have spawn camping. Those things are a product of reaspawns and the design of the mode. The main difference will be a lack of direction.

No LP rewards, no MC obviously but FW maps/modes in a QP environment? Sure. It'll be the best mode for good players to farm cbills in but if you really want it, yeah. Will be a good place for pugs to learn the map/modes maybe. Just wait for the new rage against "metawhores" and sync droppers and "pugbossing" and anything/everything that other people do that involves more effort than the person complaining is willing to put in.

The real problem will be good players realising that 2 or 3 semi-competent people on one side in that environment will be able to farm 3k+ and roll a 95% win rate. If I don't have to compete with a bunch of KCom guys for damage/kills and the other side is always pugs then 3K isn't a struggle and there's tons of better people than me out there.

What you're talking about is creating a kiddie pool in a shark tank. Sure, all the kiddies are excited to go swimming but just because you don't let the sharks school up first doesn't change who's eating who. You've still got them in the same pool.

[KingCobra]

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2017 - 07:44 AM, said:

We need a ton of tools like a lobby system to help build groups. We need a ton of tools to help grow both the FW and, for that matter, the comp scene. Both work by work of mouth and luck. I'm a huge proponent of better tools for players to group up and coordinate.

A FW pug queue will have the same number of stomps and farming. Still have spawn camping. Those things are a product of reaspawns and the design of the mode. The main difference will be a lack of direction.

No LP rewards, no MC obviously but FW maps/modes in a QP environment? Sure. It'll be the best mode for good players to farm cbills in but if you really want it, yeah. Will be a good place for pugs to learn the map/modes maybe. Just wait for the new rage against "metawhores" and sync droppers and "pugbossing" and anything/everything that other people do that involves more effort than the person complaining is willing to put in.

The real problem will be good players realising that 2 or 3 semi-competent people on one side in that environment will be able to farm 3k+ and roll a 95% win rate. If I don't have to compete with a bunch of KCom guys for damage/kills and the other side is always pugs then 3K isn't a struggle and there's tons of better people than me out there.

What you're talking about is creating a kiddie pool in a shark tank. Sure, all the kiddies are excited to go swimming but just because you don't let the sharks school up first doesn't change who's eating who. You've still got them in the same pool.

First off a solo FP needs to be (no units)(no sync dropping) allowed. Benefits of having a solo FP below.

#1 players are not focus fired upon by 12 organized players.
#2 players can have time to learn the maps and game modes.
#3 players can have time to have fun and enjoy FP battles.
#4 players can learn from better players.
#5 players can learn from better players how to make better builds.
#6 players can learn then be a asset to units when recruited.

And with time the community could rebuild by retaining more new and old returning players with this and a new Social lobby system.

The FP system we have now should be turned into a competitive unit Vs unit only drops with there own reward system no pugs allowed in a 2v2-12v12 format.

P.S a new player FP tutorial should be done so new players understand what FP is and how to use all the functions build drop decks ETC.

Edited by KingCobra, 27 May 2017 - 08:11 AM.

[ccrider]

I can name a dozen solo players who aren't in units, but will jump in TS and group up and play a team game who would utterly dominate a "solo" FP. I'm sure everyone here has dropped with a guy whose name sounds like "tabs on beck". That guy would appear to be playing a different game, using magic against everyone in solo FP. Think getting beat by 12 guys is bad? Wait till one guy rolls up 37 kills and 6k+ damage on his first mech. And learn the maps? Huh? 80% of FP is now quick play maps. If you isolate newcomers from experienced people all you do is ensure they learn the same quick play garbage playstyle, only with 4 mechs now so they can be 4× more selfish and ***** 4× as much about stomps. We all had to learn to play in the deep end. I learned by getting my add kicked daily by NS and NKVA and then for variety, would get rolled by TCAF. This was FP 1 when there were some nasty units. So stop making up crap and maybe tell people the mode is good if you make an effort and use social skills instead of reinforcing the idea that there's a magic safe space where all the opponents are garbage and solid can be gods with no effort. Also, do we then hide the losers in a third mode? And a 4th till we have infinite FP splits? Damn, listening to this **** for years is getting really old.

[MustrumRidcully]

I think fundamentally, you're fighting an unwinnable battle if you want more or less mandatory grouping and a busy Faction War Queue. It will always be that the majority of players prefer to go solo. They don't want to organize a team, they don't want to join a team. They just want to jump in when it strikes their mood, play a few rounds, and log off.

There is always a hardcore crowd that wants all that. Grouping. Well coordinated battle plans. If they goof off, then they do it as a team. A game should build tools to enable their style of play, because while their numbers are small, they tend to be dedicated and be the kind of people that build out-of-game character creators, make tutorials, help test on public test servers, organize tournaments even if the game has no tools for it, and often also spend a ****-ton of money on the game.

But if you want Faction War to be busy, you'll need it to be solo-friendly, too.


I am not sure I have any big answers to it. For me personally - I'd like more smaller team sizes. I know, everyone was super excited when MW:O finally made 12v12 a reality, but for group play fans, getting 12 men together (per side) is actually very difficult. The result is the unhealthy mix of teams dropping against PuGs. Smaller team size would make it easier to have full teams against full teams. In addition, even when groups and solos are mixed, it will only be 8 group members focusing firing on that solo player that "does his own thing", not 12.

[Positive Mental Attitude]

Lots of pointless discussion here over things that will never make it into the game i.e solo ques and smaller groups...

[Grus]

Carl Vickers, on 26 May 2017 - 06:48 PM, said:

Good players will dominate/carry a match whether solo or in a group, splitting the queues is NOT the answer, getting gud is.

Group up, get on the TS hubs, join a unit, learn to play better is the only way this mode works.

CARL'S Back lady's and gentleman!

[MischiefSC]

KingCobra, on 27 May 2017 - 08:06 AM, said:

First off a solo FP needs to be (no units)(no sync dropping) allowed. Benefits of having a solo FP below.

#1 players are not focus fired upon by 12 organized players.
#2 players can have time to learn the maps and game modes.
#3 players can have time to have fun and enjoy FP battles.
#4 players can learn from better players.
#5 players can learn from better players how to make better builds.
#6 players can learn then be a asset to units when recruited.

And with time the community could rebuild by retaining more new and old returning players with this and a new Social lobby system.

The FP system we have now should be turned into a competitive unit Vs unit only drops with there own reward system no pugs allowed in a 2v2-12v12 format.

P.S a new player FP tutorial should be done so new players understand what FP is and how to use all the functions build drop decks ETC.

All of that happens already. Most units rarely call targets - people shoot the red doritos. It's why I have a great win/loss in QP. Lock a target, open up a torso and don't kill him. Your teammates will charge the easy kill, getting your cowardly puggles to push. Lower KDR but I've got a 1.77 w/l in my Roughnecks in QP (only mech I play seriously in QP, all others are tests for FW builds, Roughneck is my own fun) doing that. If I had reaspawns I would lead a puggle spawn camp 3 out of 4 matches.

None of the rest of your points require pug matches. You're trying to associate the presence of groups in FW with any/all of that. It's just not true. Pug only FW will be teams unwilling to open the gate, spawn camps, worthless teammates, the worst of the game every match. The difference will he that the good players wont have friends around to keep them working toward the team success. It'll just be a few good playerd dominating and using everyone else as armor.

[Kubernetes]

TWIAFU, on 27 May 2017 - 03:24 AM, said:

And now what happens now that they have that lobby? Faction, IS, Clan Chat. Yep, sits there unused. VOIP? Another solution for pugs to combat groups, and totally unused.

So yea, PUGs HAVE the social options now that they been asking for to compete with organized groups. Blame for choosing to not use them only falls onto the pugs.

Same thing with LFG. Not used.

Now that PGI listens and delivered, finally, on these thing that the pugs asked for they are not used yet the complaint on how evil groups are in the group queue persist. Why? The lack of tools were an excuse. It was and is BS.

It's a type of natural selection; there are people who use those tools and they get better at the game at a very fast rate. We will pull in relative noobs to our groups from LFG, and you can see that the ones who keep coming back get better and better. The ones who really want to improve come to our TS and ask questions about builds and whatnot. If you're unwilling to do that, your game experience is totally at the mercy of those who are.