284 replies to this topic

[DarklightCA]

KingCobra, on 27 May 2017 - 08:06 AM, said:

First off a solo FP needs to be (no units)(no sync dropping) allowed. Benefits of having a solo FP below.

#1 players are not focus fired upon by 12 organized players.
#2 players can have time to learn the maps and game modes.
#3 players can have time to have fun and enjoy FP battles.
#4 players can learn from better players.
#5 players can learn from better players how to make better builds.
#6 players can learn then be a asset to units when recruited.

And with time the community could rebuild by retaining more new and old returning players with this and a new Social lobby system.

The FP system we have now should be turned into a competitive unit Vs unit only drops with there own reward system no pugs allowed in a 2v2-12v12 format.

P.S a new player FP tutorial should be done so new players understand what FP is and how to use all the functions build drop decks ETC.

Do you mean no groups? because no units would exclude a majority of the population. Also there is nothing capable of stopping players from sync dropping.

#1 There is nothing stopping a team from using the in-game VOIP to call targets and that whole focus fire thing is part of the game.
#2 Players can also learn all the maps by going into testing grounds, not a valid reason.
#3 If players aren't having fun simply because they have to fight groups then perhaps the problem is them playing Faction Play instead of something else like... Quick Play or something. That silly game mode that is already solo friendly.
#4 I doubt it, if you remove groups and all they have to learn from is the LRM Atlas player who sits in the back.
#5 They can already do that, builds are easy to come by and I don't see why you need a solo queue for that.
#6 How when the entire purpose is to exclude those players from the said units and their recruitment.

Also with what population is this new Faction Play going to be using? Group vs group queue sounds awesome to me until the reality sets in and majority of the units struggle to field the 12 players to queue and there is only 1 or a few groups actually playing until one better group repeat stomps the others until they quit.

Then everybody just starts flooding the solo queue just to get games and everything is back to normal. Good players beating up bad players, coordinated teams beating up uncoordinated teams. Maybe if I keep repeating the fact Faction Play doesn't have the population for a split queue it will finally sink in but I doubt it.

[Commander A9]

Carl's sentiments echo my own, and I've been arguing that platform since Winter 2014 when Faction Warfare was first launched.

I actually use Clan and Faction chat to relay intel about what teams are dropping with us, and against us. You might have seen me during Tukayyid III on the Clan side, reminding people about the list of Teamspeaks and Discord channels available for people to find the locations of major teams and drop with them.

Specific Clan chat is typically active. Faction chat is a little more quiet. Still, they're useful.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Can't believe people are serious about wanting a solo-queue again. It was an ok idea to try at the time, but it didn't work. I was there in it (as I wasn't in a unit at the time). It worked fine for a couple of days...but after that I couldn't get matches....at all. Solo's cancel and go back to qp after searching for 5 min. So, we never got to 12 on a side. Would wait 20-30 min and get nothing.. and I was IS.

Is population greater now???? I highly doubt it.. Split queues just made it harder for everyone to get matches. So, be careful what you wish for.

The answer is still what it has always been. Group up (or join a unit), take your lumps, learn from your mistakes (and what good pilots do to you) and just get better from it all. There is no instant fix to being new (and bad) in this mode, no matter how many people wish it so.

[TWIAFU]

KingCobra, on 27 May 2017 - 08:06 AM, said:

First off a solo FP needs to be (no units)(no sync dropping) allowed. Benefits of having a solo FP below.

LOL

And how are you going to prevent solo players from a unit, if more then one, to play? Oh wait, or you mean no unit tags can play? You want to increase wait time for solo to make sure only 1 member of a unit can play?

You want a pure derp queue so you can derp four times as much without any reward, no MC, no planets.

[PFC Carsten]

MischiefSC, on 26 May 2017 - 02:33 PM, said:

So long as it doesn't get LP rewards or MC rewards, sure. Make it new maps/modes for people to play.

You want the better rewards you have to match the better level of play.

All for it. Who cares about the minuscule amounts of MC or that map that gets reset every other day/week/event anyway.

[MischiefSC]

PFC Carsten, on 27 May 2017 - 02:33 PM, said:

All for it. Who cares about the minuscule amounts of MC or that map that gets reset every other day/week/event anyway.

I've asked for that since it started. Would be a good way for new players to get some experience in the maps/modes without mucking up matches that mattered - though matches don't matter now anyway.

[naterist]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 27 May 2017 - 02:09 PM, said:

Can't believe people are serious about wanting a solo-queue again. It was an ok idea to try at the time, but it didn't work. I was there in it (as I wasn't in a unit at the time). It worked fine for a couple of days...but after that I couldn't get matches....at all. Solo's cancel and go back to qp after searching for 5 min. So, we never got to 12 on a side. Would wait 20-30 min and get nothing.. and I was IS.

Is population greater now???? I highly doubt it.. Split queues just made it harder for everyone to get matches. So, be careful what you wish for.

The answer is still what it has always been. Group up (or join a unit), take your lumps, learn from your mistakes (and what good pilots do to you) and just get better from it all. There is no instant fix to being new (and bad) in this mode, no matter how many people wish it so.

wasnt that before there was the slider and there was only 2 (real) factions? with it the way it is now, it might work a heck of a lot better, however then you have the loyalist event ques. my solution would be to make the loyalist event ques with a group cap size of 4 or 3. let solos and small loyalist groups use that que que to get better, and the clan front be for 12 mans and big groups.

[justcallme A S H]

KingCobra, on 27 May 2017 - 08:06 AM, said:

First off a solo FP needs to be (no units)(no sync dropping) allowed. Benefits of having a solo FP below.

That was tried at FP3 launch. It lasted 2 weeks or so and was reverted.

All the solo's made single-man units because there was zero population in the "non unit" queue.

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 29 May 2017 - 01:53 PM.
insults / ad hominem

[Marquis De Lafayette]

naterist, on 27 May 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

wasnt that before there was the slider and there was only 2 (real) factions? with it the way it is now, it might work a heck of a lot better, however then you have the loyalist event ques. my solution would be to make the loyalist event ques with a group cap size of 4 or 3. let solos and small loyalist groups use that que que to get better, and the clan front be for 12 mans and big groups.

Planetary defense was always all factions combined into one side. If we could have gotten 12 we could have gotten a lobby and at least ghosted. However, couldn't get a lobby even with all faction solo's queueing for defense.

[MARCVS CENTVRION GALLVS]

why should you even bother going to FW ? it is boring as hell in there.

(pug, our two man team wont bring anything to bear on a organized 12)

[PFC Carsten]

justcallme A S H, on 27 May 2017 - 05:55 PM, said:

That was tried at FP3 launch. It lasted 2 weeks or so and was reverted.

All the solo's made single-man units because there was zero population in the "non unit" queue.

[Redacted]

Please get your facts complete. It was not only split, but split 4-way at once. And then it was deemed too void of players. no wonder.

Edited by draiocht, 29 May 2017 - 02:05 PM.
Quote Clean-Up

[justcallme A S H]

[Redacted]

PFC Carsten, on 28 May 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

Please get your facts complete. It was not only split, but split 4-way at once. And then it was deemed too void of players. no wonder.

There was no 4-way.

It was unit or no unit split.

FACT,

Edited by draiocht, 29 May 2017 - 02:10 PM.
unconstructive

[DarklightCA]

KingCobra, on 28 May 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

[Redacted]

The constant theme of many topics in the Faction play forums is people complaining about anything. "Clan's OP", "IS OP", "Groups OP", "Units OP", "Communication OP". The majority of the topics asking for a select population to leave has usually been solo players complaining about groups/units despite the fact they are the entire design of the game mode.

I'd personally rather Faction Play be just Units fighting other Units, that's honestly how it should have been done from the start and as such yes a split queue sounds amazing however EVERYBODY has to deal with the reality of the game. MechWarrior Online is a niche game with a smallish population and Faction Play is a heavily underplayed section of this game with a very small population.

The reality being that splitting a queue of a non-existing population is extremely stupid. Both solo players and groups need each other to find/fill games. I stopped playing Faction Play because I got tired of stomping through all the solo player teams, it gets boring really fast and is extremely unenjoyable. My only focus now is tournaments and Quick Play so I have no desire to seal club and I'm still telling you a split queue is stupid.

Perhaps it would have been relevant at the start when it had the population for one but it doesn't now.

Edited by draiocht, 29 May 2017 - 02:15 PM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Crockdaddy]

PFC Carsten, on 28 May 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

Please get your facts complete. It was not only split, but split 4-way at once. And then it was deemed too void of players. no wonder.

Cool lets try this out again. I don't mind seeing it fail twice. Lets let it run for a month. Maybe that will be enough to kill FP off completely .. .its been a farce of a game mode for quite a while now.

[slide]

[Redacted]

@Ash,
Sorry mate but your facts about the solo queue are wrong. It was introduced when we still had inter faction warfare (ie 10 buckets). Introducing the unit/non unit split effectively created 20 buckets, something which was never going to work. PGI kept it in the game for all of 3 days, not including the weekend. It was intended to fail from the very start. PGI never even gave it a chance to build some momentum. I was going to drop my tags as soon as my current contract had expired which at the time was on Saturday (Aus), PGI pulled the split on the Friday. They didn't even give weekend only players a chance to try it or even load the patch.

That being said with only one bucket now a solo only queue might work from a player count perspective, [Redacted].


@everyone else
You are all wrong. The problem in FP is the skill gap, it has always been the skill gap. Groups, great players, solo's or potato's when mixed together will produce the results we see being rehashed time and again like they are in this thread.

"Gitt'n Gud" is a start, but not the answer, as those you are trying to catch up with, are getting better too.
I doubt that a solo queue is the answer either for many reasons.

The only real solution IMO is a properly functional match maker that can create relatively equal matches, by actually being able to match teams of similar skill. However PGI have failed at this at every turn. This continued failure continues to see lopsided matches in all modes. (overall population is an issue too)

I am not sure what the answer is ATM, I do know that the status quo will only lead to further decline in FP (if not the game in general)

Perhaps a better solution would be to introduce a handicap system like they have in GP where the bigger the group the less tonnage you get. I know this will create issues with drop deck creation but to me it seems like the only fair way of encouraging people to play and thus learn the mode.

The problem isn't getting people to try the mode, the events such as Tuk keep proving that. What we have to do is keep people playing once the big rewards go away. The perception (justifiably) that they will get farmed by units every game, is something that needs to change, it keeps a lot of people away from the mode. Sometimes it only takes 1 or 2 matches to keep people out of the mode forever.. The only thing that we can do that is to change the mode in such a way that it gives those of lesser skill the perception that they at least have a chance of winning.

I have dropped solo a lot over the years and I can tell you when a group of pugs sees a 12 man on the other side, it does not inspire them to do better, if they don't outright rage quit on the spot, many will simply try to get the game over with ASAP. This could involve suicide overheats or rambo into the enemy as fast as possible. No matter what, the drop is decided as soon as the team screen is shown before the first drop. That is something we need to change by whatever means works.

Edited by draiocht, 29 May 2017 - 02:35 PM.
off-topic, exploit/griefing reference

[Emeraudes]

slide, on 28 May 2017 - 06:57 PM, said:

The problem in FP is the skill gap, it has always been the skill gap. Groups, great players, solo's or potato's when mixed together will produce the results we see being rehashed time and again like they are in this thread.

"Gitt'n Gud" is a start, but not the answer, as those you are trying to catch up with, are getting better too.
I doubt that a solo queue is the answer either for many reasons.

I disagree, Having players improve to the point where they are good is never the start, it is the ultimate answer. However, the process leading to that is not something anyone can control.

Having a match maker isn't part of the solution either, that is meant to answer a completely separate issue when players have reached their maximum capacity for improvement(or at least their max threshold for effort to improve) and are better off not being matched with players who have significantly higher capacity/thresholds.

The real problem is Faction play is touted as the End-Game of MWO. However, the concept of an End-Game is only relevant to a PVE centric title. PvP is ALWAYS the End-Game for most titles due to players being unpredictable, dynamic and sometimes overwhelming opponents that provide gameplay challenges.

A subset of this issue is also the fact that not only is MWO a pvp-based game, it is also an ability based game where no amount of gear will allow you leverage over any other player because Mechs, Weapons and Skill trees are universal. If anything, the lack of understanding will disadvantage you over any good player because you'd build a mech to less than optimal effectiveness.

This problem will persist for the foreseeable future. The player base is filled with people who are fixed to certain mindsets that will not allow them to perform well in most PvP game balances.

[slide]

Emeraudes, on 28 May 2017 - 08:00 PM, said:

The player base is filled with people who are fixed to certain mindsets that will not allow them to perform well in most PvP game
balances.

Which is a nice way of saying "Git Gud"

No amount of saying, do this, get that build, join TS, join a unit etc is ever going to change the fact that there will ALWAYS be a skill gap, whether it be someone like me whose skills leveled out 3 years ago at decidedly mid tier level, to someone who started the game yesterday, to someone with natural ability to play anything at a high level.

Feeding seals to sharks is a bad idea no matter what the game is, for the simple reason the seals just stop playing and there isn't enough sharks to sustain the game. Every game in the history of games (computer and RL) has had some sort of ranking system. Why is that? To give everyone a fair chance to a)play and b)get better and advance through the ranks.

If you plucked some 10 year old kid out of class and told him to go up against Usain Bolt over 100m, what would the result be? Repeat this experiment 10 times with 10 different kids. Out of that you will get 1 that wants to be like Bolt, you'll get 2 that maybe keep running in a different event (like marathon). 2 will change sports all together and the other 5 will never go near running shoes again.

That is exactly what happens when a group of 12 pugs gets stomped by a team. Especially 12 new pugs. For every 1 you get who will follow the advice of those who know better you get 11 who quit. Those few that try aren't enough to keep the mode alive.

"Git Gud" isn't the answer.
Solo Queue may or may not be the Answer.
If MM isn't an answer then what is.

Because sure as **** stinks, what we have now is not an answer.

[Emeraudes]

slide, on 28 May 2017 - 09:42 PM, said:

Which is a nice way of saying "Git Gud"

No amount of saying, do this, get that build, join TS, join a unit etc is ever going to change the fact that there will ALWAYS be a skill gap, whether it be someone like me whose skills leveled out 3 years ago at decidedly mid tier level, to someone who started the game yesterday, to someone with natural ability to play anything at a high level.

I already said that getting players to improve is not something anyone can control. Why would something I can't control be my solution?

Pointing to the matchmaker and saying "we need better" isn't going to fix anything because the data that it's using to split the queue isn't accurate in the first place. Unless you're saying that the data tabulated, which hasn't been expressed explicitly in your statements, is a part of the problem.

[slide]

Apologies if I misconstrued you words but I am so sick of these threads where a certain elite few think the only solution is to "Git Gud" or GTFO.

I am well aware that a descent MM is a tough ask, both in what ever metrics is uses and because of low population. Not sure what you mean by "tabulated"?

For FP to be functional it needs players, simple as that. As long as the status quo remains the mode will continue to wither until it is completely un-viable. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

A MM cannot balance teams with out a large player base, I understand this. But it can work out the relative worth of 2 teams (using what ever metric works best (W/L, K/D etc) based on that information it can handicap one team or buff the other. There are number of things you could change, tonnage is the obvious one, but it creates issues with viable drop decks. However you could handicap one team by randomly removing one mech from the drop. You could buff one team by giving them free Arty or Air strikes, extend their weapons ranges or magazine sizes, there is a bunch of stuff you could do to give a wildly inferior team, a boost. And it doesn't need to be limited to pug v groups either, a pug group of T1's v T5 would have it too. Heck even a cbill bonus just for showing up would go a long way to helping.

Mostly though it's about giving players a chance as opposed to just being fodder, people don't like being fodder.

I will note though that no matter how much help you give some teams there will still be a high chance of a slaughter.

Here's another idea.

Currently we have 4 planets up for grabs. Our MM gives each team is assembles a rating 1-4 (TR) (based on what ever metric)
Tier 1 planet, TR 1 only. Typical Unit V unit games
Tier 2 planet, TR 2 only. Typical Casual unit, experienced pug teams. TR 1 can play but with 20% tonnage hit
Tier 3 planet, TR 3 only, Small groups, casual pugs. TR1 and TR 2 can play but with additional 20% tonnage hit (TR1 40%)
Tier 4 planet, TR 4 only, typical pug v pug, very casual or new players. Again higher tier teams can play but with a further tonnage hit (up to 50% for TR1, 30% TR2, 10% TR3)

If games are sparse teams can elect to play in a lower ranked match with the corresponding tonnage reduction, this give teams time to adjust drop decks before excepting the terms of the engagement.

I would expect to see more matches in the lower tiers as pugs would play more with more experience players being able to find better teams in the higher tier queues. Whilst still giving higher rated teams the option to come down and play in a reasonable time frame.

As for how to calculate a Team Rating? Difficult but maybe start with the pilots position on the (FP) Leader Board and add them up. Total each players position and weight that accordingly. I am no statistician but there has to be some set of numbers that can work out the relative worth of 2 teams.

[Emeraudes]

slide, on 29 May 2017 - 12:08 AM, said:

*snip*

"tabulated" as in charted data. The information they use to determine PSR amongst other things.

There's a reason I'm not proposing the changes; I'm not sure what the balance objective is for PGI. Everyone has their own opinion on what the state of the game should be but it doesn't matter what anyone thinks is right. The only people who get to determine this are in PGI.

IMO, I can't change players who don't want to change and I am unlikely to change the system that I'm not in-charge of.

So I'm going to focus on myself and my own gameplay, making the best of losses and enjoying my wins. I'm not a noble person, I won't care about the experience of people who are unlikely to care about me so long as I'm not deliberately giving them a negative experience.

I'll just leave my part of our conversation at that.