62 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

The Sensor skill tree should be completely removed. It serves no real purpose.

Lights shouldnt have to sacrifice skill points to be better at scouting. They should be inherently better at scouting than other weight classes. A lot of the sensor skills, particularly sensor range, should be migrated onto light mechs for free.

And the few valuable skills in the sensor tree like advanced zoom, seismic, radar derp, etc... can simply be moved to the operations tree tree instead. The operations tree has too many useless skills as is and moving the useful skills from the sensor tree to the operations tree would allow for the removal of many useless skills from the operations tree. Combining the best skill nodes from both the operations/sensor tree and removing all the bad skills would eliminate the walling and greatly improve player options.

ECM
ECM should also not be balanced around forcing people to spend additional skill points. ECM shouldnt be overpowered in the first place. ECM stealth should be removed and it should no longer block missile locks. Guardian ECM does neither of those things in Battletech.

What ECM should do is disrupt sensor sharing like it used to do. It should cut people off from being able to share sensor information with teammates. ECM should also have a new mode called Ghost Mode that can create false radar contacts. You could also require skill nodes in the operations tree to unlock those new functions for ECM, thatd be fine too.

Sensor Suites
Instead of the sensor skill tree all mechs should just have basic, intermediate, or advanced sensor suites in their sensors cockpit slot.

basic sensors would be equipped on most heavies/assaults. basic would have a 600m range and no bonus to targeting info.

intermediate sensors would be equipped on most mediums/lights and some heavies/assaults with better than normal sensors like the Cyclops. intermediate would have 800m range and a 25% bonus to target info gathering

advanced sensors would be equipped on mediums/lights that are dedicated scout mechs like the Raven. advanced sensors would have 1000m range and a 50% bonus to target info gathering.

Thats nice and simple and it achieves the goal of lights/mediums having inherently better sensors than heavies/assaults. Which is how it should be.

Expanded Info Warfare
This idea is optional. One of the problems the game has is that sensor locks arnt really all that important. So the idea is to make all weapons do zero damage beyond optimum range unless you have a sensor lock. And also give lights a reward for any damage done beyond optimum range to mechs theyve spotted and locked onto.

That encourages lights to go out and spot enemy mechs. And it makes holding sensor locks an important part of the game because without sensor locks your teammates wont be able to do damage beyond their optimum range. Sensors are suddenly important. And lights by extension are more important because they have the best sensors.


Additionally lights should be given some other tools to conduct information warfare. Like the additional ECM functions that I mentioned above. But there should be new consumables too. Like a probe you can plant into the ground that create fake radar contacts. Or probes that you stick into the ground that have a seismic detection radius.


Lastly we need active/passive radar modes. Instead of ECM granting stealth, which it shouldnt do at all, the most rudimentary form of stealth should come from passive radar mode. And the most advanced forms of stealth would come from the combination of passive radar mode + stealth armor.

active radar mode would essentially the same thing we have now.

passive radar mode would turn off your active sensors off completely, you wouldnt be able to target mechs, get locks, see detailed target info, or share sensor information at all. but it would also reduce the range you could be detected at by 25%. So a mech with intermediate sensors (800m) would now only detect you at 600m.

stealth armor would reduce your detection range by 50% when active. And the combination of passive sensors + stealth armor would reduce the range youre detected at by 75%. So intermediate sensors would only detect you at 200m, which is the same as fully skilled ECM now.

Edited by Khobai, 19 May 2017 - 06:23 AM.

[sycocys]

Pretty much agree with it, just would like to add that additional sensor/auxiliary equipment really needs to have increased base heat cost.

Well there really just needs to be offsetting costs for all buffs, but at least put something in place to make the computers and sensor suites you physically equip have some sort of actual cost to use.

[Baba_Yaga]

The whole skill tree needs to be nuied peroid!

[Acehilator]

Pushing Lights into a scouting role isn't going to work. Most people are just not interested in that kind of gameplay.

[Mawai]

sycocys, on 19 May 2017 - 06:06 AM, said:

Pretty much agree with it, just would like to add that additional sensor/auxiliary equipment really needs to have increased base heat cost.

Well there really just needs to be offsetting costs for all buffs, but at least put something in place to make the computers and sensor suites you physically equip have some sort of actual cost to use.

They take tonnage and critical spots ... whether that is sufficient depends on your perspective ... but in the case of BAP/TAG/NARC/targeting computer/command console ... it seems to be about right.

If they were really that good and useful then everyone would take them but that doesn't happen ... so I'd say that in most cases the tonnage/crit slot requirements are sufficient.

I won't comment on ECM since that has been unbalanced since it was first introduced and PGI still hasn't worked up the courage to redesign it.

[Khobai]

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The whole skill tree needs to be nuied peroid!

unfortunately thats not going to happen

so the best we can do is fix whats wrong with it.

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Pushing Lights into a scouting role isn't going to work. Most people are just not interested in that kind of gameplay.

which is why the sensor skills need to be given to lights for free.

whether they choose to use those skills or not is upto them.

and theyre not being forced into a scouting role. theyre simply being given the option to scout. or not scout and continue playing as they always have.

but right now the option to scout isnt even a thing...

Edited by Khobai, 19 May 2017 - 06:30 AM.

[Dogstar]

Lights, apart from their speed, do not make good scouts because they do not have tonnage to spare for anything but the essentials.

Fast mediums however are a different matter entirely they can just about afford to fit things like ECM+BAP without sacrificing the majority of their firepower.

Frankly the whole concept of roles needs defining without taking weight or class into account - the current tree is a single step in that direction but needs a lot more work on defining and enhancing such roles.

To do that the Sensor tree needs to remain but needs to be much improved.

Edited by Dogstar, 19 May 2017 - 06:31 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Until and unless we get active/passive radar or some other way to not show a giant red dorito of obvious, i will not support the removal of ECM's ability to remove the dorito. Its absolutely not possible to be stealthy in a game where you have a massive red 'shoot it here' sign every time you appear in LOS.

[Mawai]

Hamerclone, on 19 May 2017 - 06:12 AM, said:

The whole skill tree needs to be nuied peroid!

Honestly, that is a matter of opinion. I think the old system was utterly atrocious and useless. Same unlocks for every mech were simply boring, repetitive and became simply a mech performance boost for anyone who had played long enough ... and thus a deterrent to new players since they had so far to go to catch up.

The massive nerf to the original skill tree when they reduced the effectiveness of all the skills was one step.

Replacing the ridiculously bad placeholder was the second.

Refining and fixing the new skill system is the third.

Overall, I think the new version is better than the old but has a needless level of complexity.

Finally, the new system is not intended to replicate the builds from the previous skill tree + modules ... it gives you something different but not necessarily bad. I think what a lot of folks are up in arms about is the across the board nerfs to mech performance due to engine desync, quirk recalibration, new skill tree that will hopefully increase TTK a bit.

Also, maybe being a bit slower and less maneuverable will reduce the peek and poke/trading strategy a bit since it is harder to pop out/shoot and get back to cover without taking significant return fire. Instead, you may have to maneuver and poke/push with team mates to increase your effectiveness ... the changes may affect certain play styles more than others.

[Khobai]

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Lights, apart from their speed, do not make good scouts because they do not have tonnage to spare for anything but the essentials.

which is why you give them free advanced sensor suites that dont cost tonnage... thats kindve the whole point I was making.

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Until and unless we get active/passive radar or some other way to not show a giant red dorito of obvious, i will not support the removal of ECM's ability to remove the dorito. Its absolutely not possible to be stealthy in a game where you have a massive red 'shoot it here' sign every time you appear in LOS.

yeah I get that. thats why I mentioned adding active/passive sensor mode and having it stack with stealth armor. and also ways to use ECM to disrupt sensor networks and create false radar contacts to confuse the enemy. part of information warfare is giving the enemy disinformation too.

Edited by Khobai, 19 May 2017 - 06:37 AM.

[cazidin]

Acehilator, on 19 May 2017 - 06:18 AM, said:

Pushing Lights into a scouting role isn't going to work. Most people are just not interested in that kind of gameplay.

Pushing Lights into a Scouting Role without significant reward will just push most people out of them and into Mediums.

[Khobai]

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Pushing Lights into a Scouting Role without significant reward will just push most people out of them and into Mediums.

How is it pushing lights into a scouting role? theyre getting it for free.

You can play a scout. Or you can play a harasser. Or you can play a support light like a kitfox. You can still play however you want.

All it does is create the option to scout. It doesnt make it compulsory.

Its no different then choosing to play an LRM assault, a brawler assault, or a sniper assault. Your choice of how to play has consequences that you have to deal with. If you choose to not to scout then you better do a lot of damage to make up for it. Just like playing an LRM assault has consequences, youre not on the frontline sharing damage, so you need to LRM extra hard to make up for that.

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without significant reward

And there would be a reward. Lights would get a percentage credit of any damage done to mechs beyond optimum range that they spotted and locked onto.

Edited by Khobai, 19 May 2017 - 06:47 AM.

[sycocys]

Mawai, on 19 May 2017 - 06:24 AM, said:

They take tonnage and critical spots ... whether that is sufficient depends on your perspective ... but in the case of BAP/TAG/NARC/targeting computer/command console ... it seems to be about right.

If they were really that good and useful then everyone would take them but that doesn't happen ... so I'd say that in most cases the tonnage/crit slot requirements are sufficient.

I won't comment on ECM since that has been unbalanced since it was first introduced and PGI still hasn't worked up the courage to redesign it.

Tag and narc need to be adjusted, but bap (especially) also needs to along with ecm also be balanced against weapon systems. Same with the Targeting Computers, anything that uses (now replaces) module slots.

Strikes, uavs and flushes need to have mechanical costs as well. Tag need for strikes, energy(heat) needed for uav (and/or a new piece of 1 ton, 1 slot gear to make it usable), and lost cooling capacity would be the most apparent.

They just need to add more weight to the value of information overall, unfortunately for some players that means that dps, mobility and overall ttk also need to have their weight adjusted.

-- the only other addendum I'd make to the original concept here is that basic sensors should just be basic sensors, then people upgrade them to suit their needs/wants with an offsetting cost. Forced roles isn't a real fun game experience, but neither is a complete lack of balance - choose the way you want to play or specialize (or not specialize) and have it stay pretty balanced across the board.

[RaptorRage]

It seemed that the last PTS version of the skill tree had different values on sensor range and target info gathering based on weight class with 7/5/3/2% bonuses per node for 35/25/15/10% total bonuses ranging from Light to Assault but that wasn't mentioned in the patch notes and I don't think there was any explanation as to why it was removed.

[Mister Blastman]

I see the purpose behind the OP... nuke skill tree, free up nodes, dump nodes into weapons or armor. I see it for what it is!

Sensor skill tree is good for every robit.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 19 May 2017 - 06:44 AM.

[Khobai]

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I see the purpose behind the OP... nuke skill tree, free up nodes, dump nodes into weapons or armor. I see it for what it is!

I already dont put points into sensors. so how does it free up points that I already dont put there? that makes no sense

[RAM]

Khobai, on 19 May 2017 - 05:56 AM, said:

Lights shouldnt have to sacrifice skill points to be better at scouting. They should be inherently better at scouting than other weight classes. A lot of the sensor skills, particularly sensor range, should be migrated onto light mechs for free.

Sensor Suites
Instead of the sensor skill tree all mechs should just have basic, intermediate, or advanced sensor suites in their sensors cockpit slot.

basic sensors would be equipped on most heavies/assaults. basic would have a 600m range and no bonus to targeting info.

intermediate sensors would be equipped on most mediums/lights and some heavies/assaults with better than normal sensors like the Cyclops. intermediate would have 800m range and a 25% bonus to target info gathering

advanced sensors would be equipped on mediums/lights that are dedicated scout mechs like the Raven. advanced sensors would have 1000m range and a 50% bonus to target info gathering.

Weight Class /= Tactical Task (Role)

SCOUT mechs should be better at scouting; Cyclops's Tacticon B-2000 is the definition of an advanced sensor suite.

Otherwise good post.


RAM
ELH

[Khobai]

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Weight Class /= Tactical Task (Role)

i have to disagree

if youre scouting in a cyclops youre doing it wrong

[ScrapIron Prime]

Except that it's NOT pushing lights into a scouting role. You have to CHOOSE the skills to make you a good scout, therefore you're given the option, not being pushed.

And Mediums rock even harder now, which is a good thing. By lore, most mechs are mediums, while in MWO it's been Heavies and Assaults. So I like the pressure to make Mediums more common. IMHO.

[Acehilator]

Khobai, on 19 May 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

How is it pushing lights into a scouting role? theyre getting it for free.

You can play a scout. Or you can play a harasser. Or you can play a support light like a kitfox. You can still play however you want.

Yes, Lights are getting it for free. Everybody else get nerfed sensors in your proposal, so Lights not scouting would hurt your team a lot. Like I already said, it's interesting and all, but in the end it is like the skill tree... WAY to much development time needed for too little gain.