99 replies to this topic

[Ade the Rare]

There's an IS mech that can compete with a TW?! HOW DARE THEY!


Seriouly though, you know the very fact this comparison, and indeed *all the comparisons* are to Clan mechs (particularly the frikkin TW) speaks to which way the "balance" lies.

[Gyrok]

Ade the Rare, on 27 May 2017 - 10:23 AM, said:

There's an IS mech that can compete with a TW?! HOW DARE THEY!


Seriouly though, you know the very fact this comparison, and indeed *all the comparisons* are to Clan mechs (particularly the frikkin TW) speaks to which way the "balance" lies.

Not compete...is outright better WITHOUT ANY AGILITY TREE.

[MechaBattler]

Gyrok, on 27 May 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

Not compete...is outright better WITHOUT ANY AGILITY TREE.

Good. Get a taste of that.

[Ade the Rare]

Gyrok, on 27 May 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

Not compete...is outright better WITHOUT ANY AGILITY TREE.

One variant of one mech, is better than a TW...

Welcome to a tiny fraction of how every IS player felt when the KDK-3 came out.

[Gyrok]

Koniving, on 27 May 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

If we have the duration quirks. Ahem. I mean, uh, "da Skillz"
But assuming we do compared to yours, that's 2.4% better cooldown and 5% shorter duration provided the lack of quirks. Yes it's a bit shorter but that's the trade off for significantly less range and a bit less damage.
Compared to your superior range.
Compared to your lighter equipment.
Compared to your engine.
Etc...

But ironically the real reason you get 2 points extra damage instead of one is pretty simple.
It's a sleeper buff from before the skill tree, because the IS power creeped with the ghost heat allowance and all the god damn quirks.
<.<

In all seriousness though... I'm sure you'll note over the last two years the Clans have had a series of buffs to weapons. AC/UAC shot count. LBX spread. LPL damage buffs, all Clan lasers getting their durations reduced compared to when first released (exception being Clan ER LL). Shorter cooldowns on all Clan missiles across the board. Sure, some necessary engine effects. But for the most part PGI's been trying to combat IS superiority for quite a while.

....except with the significant removal of most quirks, it isn't necessary for the Clans to have so many buffs.
(Keeping the AC shot count buff on the Clan ACs but removing them from the UACs would go a long way to make the ACs viable.)

Except that IS LPL has 0.67 duration to start, CLPL has 1.12 duration to start.

So, the duration is already unbalanced before you apply bigger quirks.

[Oberost]

Gyrok, on 27 May 2017 - 12:04 PM, said:

Except that IS LPL has 0.67 duration to start, CLPL has 1.12 duration to start.

So, the duration is already unbalanced before you apply bigger quirks.

It's not the tech, it's just that IS pilots are better...






I couldn't resist...

Edited by Oberost, 27 May 2017 - 12:44 PM.

[Valhallan]

Wat, did clan mediums and pulses get nerfed already? no? yea i don't see the problem of IS LPL boating blrc. 6cmpl hunch2 is better in terms of offense in the same bracket and only loses out on being softer, on account of only being 50 tons to the fattlemaster's 85+quarks. And that fattlemaster just gets owned by a cheesegyr.

Edited by Valhallan, 27 May 2017 - 12:52 PM.

[LordNothing]

what gets me is the large number of uac jam chance quirks out in the wild. 30%, 40%. you can only get an extra 5% from the tree which is laughable at best (and the uac is bad enough stock that i will always get them if i haven't already switched the build to other guns).

you find the best jam chance quirks on mechs that can only mount a single uac5, like the wolverine, which seems like a fine and dandy way to balance out the single gun carriers. but then you got 25% on the jm6-dd, which can now mount 4 guns just fine with the magazine capacity nodes (before this build had far to little ammo to be viable and most players just ran 3).

i think its more an artifact of the shoddy jam mechanic than anything. what if we bring the base jam chance down to about 12% and add some kind of ghost jam mechanic, add 2% to the jam chance for each additional gun. then take the nodes up to about 7.5% each. this way mechs that mount fewer guns get a buff, we get rid of the quirks and the nodes can be meaningful.

you can also make jam time a function of cooldown, so that cooldown nodes will shorten jams slightly.

Edited by LordNothing, 27 May 2017 - 01:40 PM.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

Another day... another Gyrok Clam crybaby thread!!!!!

[Luminis]

Tarogato, on 27 May 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

Did you even read the patch notes?

I've reformatted the table because PGI's was awful, but go look at it.

All two differences! In cooldown, and laser duration. So much for &quot;larger... across the board.&quot;

I'm pretty sure my MAD-IIC for 3.75% laser duration each, but I'll have to check - not at the computer atm.

On topic... Well, how are IS 'Mechs supposed to go toe to toe with Clan tech otherwise? Nothing had enough range quirks for the IS LPL to match the cLPL in that regard, for example. I'm a Clan player at heart, but this topic is plain stupid.

[Gyrok]

Valhallan, on 27 May 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

Wat, did clan mediums and pulses get nerfed already? no? yea i don't see the problem of IS LPL boating blrc. 6cmpl hunch2 is better in terms of offense in the same bracket and only loses out on being softer, on account of only being 50 tons to the fattlemaster's 85+quarks. And that fattlemaster just gets owned by a cheesegyr.

CMPL has basically NO range...at all...period.

The IS LPL toting BLR can hit a 6 MPL hunchie IIC for 300m before the hunchie can even return fire.

[Valhallan]

Gyrok, on 27 May 2017 - 01:33 PM, said:

CMPL has basically NO range...at all...period.

The IS LPL toting BLR can hit a 6 MPL hunchie IIC for 300m before the hunchie can even return fire.

330/561 * 19 392.7/667.59
365/730 * 15 419.75/839.5

Try again, its 171.91 difference at max range if both actually burn their pts on range, 194.35 if no c-tcomp, and that difference shrinks with every range pt not taken since the LPL benefits more. meanwhile the hunch2 runs faster has JJ's and is one click .85 base burn time with 0 GH and no instadeath XL, at 50 tons. And it still doesn't change that the cheesegyr at 75 will eat the fattlemaster alive.

[Gyrok]

Ade the Rare, on 27 May 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

One variant of one mech, is better than a TW...

Welcome to a tiny fraction of how every IS player felt when the KDK-3 came out.

The Atlas was still good at that point, just not for dakka.

The KDK3 and the AS7 did not really compete on that level...though the MAL was long king of dakka before KDK dropped.

The TW and BLR run similar loadouts...lots of lasers. BLR just does it outright better...and better than the WHK, too.

[Gyrok]

Valhallan, on 27 May 2017 - 02:01 PM, said:

330/561 * 19 392.7/667.59
365/730 * 15 419.75/839.5

Try again, its 171.91 difference at max range if both actually burn their pts on range, 194.35 if no c-tcomp, and that difference shrinks with every range pt not taken since the LPL benefits more. meanwhile the hunch2 runs faster has JJ's and is one click .85 base burn time with 0 GH and no instadeath XL, at 50 tons. And it still doesn't change that the cheesegyr at 75 will eat the fattlemaster alive.

You are assuming that someone would bring a TC1. Many would, but many see that as a waste of a DHS.

Additionally, getting all 15 range nodes requires a lot more FP than many bring on clan mediums since the agility for nearly all of them is worse than base agility on IS assault mechs with a 30 ton advantage.

So, consider 10% range...easy enough to get, and NO TC1.

365/730*1.10 = 401.5/803

330/561*1.10 = 363/617

Oh, look at that...only 200m gap...and IS TCs are coming...so forget about that advantage...it is on short time.

[El Bandito]

Gyrok, on 27 May 2017 - 01:33 PM, said:

CMPL has basically NO range...at all...period.

I guess IS MPL has negative range then?

[Scyther]

Nah, Gyrok just has his head stuffed so far up his "no Clan tech advantage lalalalalalaa" viewpoint that he can't see reality. He sees a '200 metre range gap', at maximum range, where the weapons do virtually no damage anyway. He refuses to see that a Clan MPL at actually effective range (330/360m) has 75% of the damage, 90% of the range, for less heat, and five tons less weight than an IS LPL. Also 1 slot less, but hey what's a slot when you've just ignored a 350% weight differential?

Edited by MadBadger, 27 May 2017 - 05:42 PM.

[Gyrok]

MadBadger, on 27 May 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

Nah, Gyrok just has his head stuffed so far up his "no Clan tech advantage lalalalalalaa" viewpoint that he can't see reality. He sees a '200 metre range gap', at maximum range, where the weapons do virtually no damage anyway. He refuses to see that a Clan MPL at actually effective range (330/360m) has 75% of the damage, 90% of the range, for less heat, and five tons less weight than an IS LPL. Also 1 slot less, but hey what's a slot when you've just ignored a 350% weight differential?

Because you ignore stuff like that when people make stupid comparisons...like you are right now.

[Luminis]

Why are you even comparing Clan MEDIUM Pulse Lasers to IS LARGE Pulse Lasers? Why are you comparing an 85 ton Assault to a 50 ton Medium?

This threat is spiralling down into complete idiocy pretty damn quick...

[Ade the Rare]

Because Clan medium weaponry should be the same as IS large weaponry. You know, for "balance".

Oh, and I found this in another thread. Survey of nearly 500 players from 18th-27th May.



The Best Mechs:

1st - Kodiak - 15.9%
2nd - Timberwolf - 12.8%
3rd - Marauder IIC - 8.7%
4th - Night Gyr - 8.1%

Cry me a statistical river.

Edited by Ade the Rare, 28 May 2017 - 03:08 AM.

[Chados]

Gyrok, on 27 May 2017 - 01:33 PM, said:

CMPL has basically NO range...at all...period.

The IS LPL toting BLR can hit a 6 MPL hunchie IIC for 300m before the hunchie can even return fire.

Let's parse this.

What Gyrok essentially is saying here is that Clan MEDIUM PL ought to equivalent-range IS LARGE PL, and that a Clan second-line, 50-ton MEDIUM mech ought to trade equally with an IS 85-ton, front-line ASSAULT mech.

Say what? That's an apples/oranges comparison if I ever saw one.

Now, if one compares Clan MPL with IS MPL, and using the IS prime MPL carrier, one sees a different dynamic. A Thunderbolt 5SS and the 6MPL HBK IIC are a better comparison. On the TDR-5SS, MPL range is a total +15% allowing for both the 5%MPL and 10% energy range quirk, and another ten from the tree for a total 25. IS MPL range is 220-440 unquirked. You'll get another 55m optimal, 110 max. Optimal range=275, max 540. On the HBK-IIC, they have native 330-561 range. So at optimal the HBK outranges the TDR significantly and at max paint scratching range, the HBK outranges its 15-ton heavier IS opponent by 21 meters. And that is with the HBK without ANY skills, fresh out of the store. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Edited by Chados, 28 May 2017 - 03:35 AM.