425 replies to this topic

[justcallme A S H]

KingCobra, on 07 June 2017 - 07:08 AM, said:

It really boils down to a few thousand players one way or the other based off the steam charts leader boards ETC.

I do play MWO 5 days a week for 2-5 hours a night solo/groups you like all others on this forum can choose to believe what you like in topics and posts and reply to them the way you perceive the game to be attacking me personally will not stop my choice to voice my opinions on MWO and FP or any other topic people place here.

15,000 is not "a few".

You claim you play so much FP yet are never on the leaderboard. Therefore, you do not play FP at the level you claim. Again that is just the fact staring everyone in the face.

The issue with your opinion if you give it as fact when, it's not. It's totally inaccurate and lacks any credible evidence every, single, time.

[James Argent]

Here's what I'm reading:

"PUGs need to GTFO of FW."

"But FW pop already sucks. How do we get more people to play?"

"We don't need more people to play. I just want a circle-jerk of a couple of teams per server zone and we can run the mode into the ground till it's a ghost town."

"O...kay. Moving on. PUGs won't play if all they can do is get farmed...let's do something about that."

"No, you can't separate the PUGs from the premades, because muh one-time warning popup says they should separate themselves from us."

"But you can't attract new or potentially returning players to a mode where they get stomped so hard and so quickly that there's no way for them to learn how to improve."

"They need to face adversity. I hate farming PUGs, but I'll gladly be their adversity to face. It's their fault for swimming in this end of the pool."

"You can't just wave a magic wand and bestow FPS talent upon someone. They need to be able to improve themselves, and that takes practice...practice where they get to see what leads to success, not just what lets them last a precious few more seconds in a stomp. Otherwise they'll feel like nothing they do can matter, and that leads to them not playing as a team, listening to calls, focusing fire, and all those goodies you keep saying they should do to improve."

"That's what QP is for. This mode was originally meant to be for highly organized teams."
"But you don't have enough highly organized teams."

"We did at one point."

"But you no longer have them. You need to face the reality of the situation, and to have this mode continue, it needs to adapt to the population it has available."

"Brawndo's got what plants crave."

"So here's an idea that's almost exactly the same as the original 'PUGs GTFO' request, except that it allows PUGs to play FW separate from the premades so they can improve and eventually meet your standard of play. To you guys and your drops it's the same thing in effect as keeping them out."

"NOOOO! I hate farming PUGs and they shouldn't be in my matches, but you can't take the ability to farm PUGs away from us. Did I mention that I hate farming PUGs?"

"Why do you insist on being able to do something you say you hate?"

"It's a burden I take upon myself to maintain the sanctity of the mode. My tears flow unchecked with every warhorn's blast."

"Okay, but how do you propose the PUGs get better if all they can do is get farmed by top-tier teams?"

"We put in the work and improved, they can do it too."

To which my answer is: But you were able to put in this work in the absence of a PUG farming regime. Everybody was learning and improving at the same time. Those days no longer exist and you can't stubbornly refuse to allow your behavior to be modified by changing the mode to account for an entrenched minority effectively ruining the mode for what should be the majority.

Today's event includes FW, and it's just a one-day challenge. Shortly after the event opened it took me 20 minutes to get matched on a team for each FW match. To meet the requirements of the 'challenge' you don't have to win or even score a single point of damage...you just have to participate twice. Yet still, hardly anybody was queueing for FW when it should've been hopping. People simply aren't playing it the way it is.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

KingCobra, on 07 June 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:

A matchmaker in FP is a total waist of time what would work is allow just 2man groups to drop with pugs/solo/casual players as it is now.

Then take any group larger than a 2man and put them in that bucket to drop together 4man-12man as it is now and call it good.I would assume after a few months the population of FP would start to gain some ground I personally think this idea would be the best suggestion to fix FP for good.

Then if PGI ever get around to building a new social lobby system like the old MSN gamming zone was for player to use and units to recruit from this game might just be at a turning point to rebound from the last 5 years of marketing and new player retention failures.

Aside from the fact that it takes a match maker to accomplish what you are talking about, how does split queues work for the current 'point' of FW which is Tagging planets. If you put the big bad groups together and one group is winning every match for their side, but you have all the pugs on their side losing faster than they can win, will they not claim a planet? Will there then be two tug of war bars for each queue? And then what? Each queue gets to tag its own planets? What is to stop units from pairing up in twos and sync dropping all day long?

The purpose of FP as PGI designed it is for groups of players to work together to lay claim to planets. The last time they split the queues, they made the freelance/untagged solo queue have no effect on the outcome of FP. If they did split the queues again, do you think PGI would allow the solo queue to have an effect on the overall conflict?

[General Solo]

Jaybles, on 07 June 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

Aside from the fact that it takes a match maker to accomplish what you are talking about, how does split queues work for the current 'point' of FW which is Tagging planets.

My idea:

FW Group Queue = Front line Troops
FW Solo Queue = Garrison Troops (If there a FW solo que)

Fluff: Elite Front line troops take planets which the garrison troops hold

Only the FW Group Que can tag planets, if this is not satisfactory, get Elite and join a unit.

A FW Solo que can be a non threatening way to introduce folks to FW and when they are ready, be a source of pilots for the FW Group Que.

And the Groups get their own que wid no dire pugs to spoil the shenangans. Maybe all groups won't be happy about dat.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 07 June 2017 - 10:50 AM.

[KingCobra]

Jaybles, on 07 June 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

Aside from the fact that it takes a match maker to accomplish what you are talking about, how does split queues work for the current 'point' of FW which is Tagging planets. If you put the big bad groups together and one group is winning every match for their side, but you have all the pugs on their side losing faster than they can win, will they not claim a planet? Will there then be two tug of war bars for each queue? And then what? Each queue gets to tag its own planets? What is to stop units from pairing up in twos and sync dropping all day long?

The purpose of FP as PGI designed it is for groups of players to work together to lay claim to planets. The last time they split the queues, they made the freelance/untagged solo queue have no effect on the outcome of FP. If they did split the queues again, do you think PGI would allow the solo queue to have an effect on the overall conflict?

I would have the 2man group + PUGS/solo/casuals play for Planet rewards not planet capture like C-bills -mech bays etc. just like a merc does now you could give the mercs a bar that only relates to a total of 10% per planet or less if needed for emersion into FP.

All 4man-12 man groups get to play for planet capture and there rewards as loyalists with there Clan or IS faction.

A 2man group even if there tier1 meta players would only have a small chance to sway a game why? Because there is a 2man group max on ether side of the battle.

Edited by KingCobra, 07 June 2017 - 10:13 AM.

[General Solo]

I think Solo only and group only cause due to no matchmaker the two man groups could be Tier one vs Tier 5 two man.
A good Tier 1 two man could carry pretty darn hard against pugs, thus defeating the purpose of the queue split.

I mean the Quick play queues are working pretty good, so this is like dat but for Faction Warfare,
FW Solo and FW Group.

After which people can stop talking about seal clubbing and the FW game mode can be judged on its merits/demerits

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 07 June 2017 - 10:38 AM.

[Cato Zilks]

James Argent, on 07 June 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

Here's what I'm reading:

"PUGs need to GTFO of FW."

The point is not to just kick people out. Most people arguing in this thread think that Pugs should come to FW. BUT, they need to be prepared to struggle. This is a tougher environment than QP and players need to know that they should have good builds if they want to succeed. Being decent at QP does not translate into success in Faction play. You can't come into this mode and complain about losing to good players and demand change.

The solo sniper is such a good example of this. Its those dadgum Shadowcat or Raven snipers that stay alive for 3 waves feeling that they are doing great only to be farmed at the end. In QP, those guys get to pick apart broken mechs at the end of the match and are rewarded for the tactic. In FP more waves come in and the snipers team is frequently out gunned and out armored. FP vets understand how to work together and how to build decks that good for team play.

James Argent, on 07 June 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

To which my answer is: But you were able to put in this work in the absence of a PUG farming regime. Everybody was learning and improving at the same time.

Again, this is not true. Many players started at the steam launch and played on through the current "pug farming regime." I am one such player. I started playing this game in Jan 2016, and to be clear, they have made it much easier on pugs from when I started: there are QP maps, they struck down OP mechs (do you remember the days when battlemasters had 15% and 25% energy range buffs? Boreal was a ***** against those quirks), combined the cues to cut wait times and virtually eliminate ghost drops, they added the Scouting cue to give people a less intense FP, heck they even worked on getting rid of bot players.

James Argent, on 07 June 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

Those days no longer exist and you can't stubbornly refuse to allow your behavior to be modified by changing the mode to account for an entrenched minority effectively ruining the mode for what should be the majority.

The entrenchment goes the other way. This game has an absurd number of players that hate "meta-cheese builds." They literally mock people for using smart and effective strategies. They won't use teamspeak because it is glitchy or out-dated, but then complain when they face a 12 man. They dont do FP because they are "comp" and only pilot light and medium mechs (yes, I have been told that by 2 separate players). I am sorry, but the stubborn group is the QP crowd.

Most of the players you are berating in here are open to changes, but skeptical of most ideas that are put forth.

James Argent, on 07 June 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

Today's event includes FW, and it's just a one-day challenge. Shortly after the event opened it took me 20 minutes to get matched on a team for each FW match. To meet the requirements of the 'challenge' you don't have to win or even score a single point of damage...you just have to participate twice. Yet still, hardly anybody was queueing for FW when it should've been hopping. People simply aren't playing it the way it is.

Ummmmm, ok. I solo dropped 3 FP matches between 5pm and 7pm (the first two hours the event was live) and I had instadrops all three times. People seemed to be cuing up just fine.

[General Solo]

I mean there gonna be sync dropping sure but it the lesser evil compared to what we got now with seals and clubs and all.

[Cato Zilks]

OZHomerOZ, on 07 June 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

My idea:

FW Group Queue = Front line Troops
FW Solo Queue = Garrison Troops (If there a FW solo que)

Fluff: Elite Front line troops take planets which the garrison troops hold

Only the FW Group Que can tag planets, if this is not satisfactory, get Elite and join a unit.

A FW Solo que can be a non threatening way to introduce folks to FW and when they are ready, be a source of pilots for the FW Group Que.

And the Groups get their own que wid no dire pugs to spoil the shenangans. Maybe all groups won't be happy about dat.

God, why do people keep posting this stupid crap. Read the forum, a bunch of people have already pitched split cues and matchmakers. The response is not going to change. If you split the cues in any hard manner it will add significant wait times and players will seek to get around the hard barrier to get matches. Any solution that promotes a hard barrier is a bad solution.

[DarklightCA]

KingCobra, on 06 June 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

I play MWO 4-5 days a week solo and FP in groups and FP solo drops so I really don't know where you get your stats?
IN my personal experience it is what I stated keeping a journal of matches played for almost 5 years on this account and my main and what im stating is my experiences in MWO and FP in general.

There are other players I assume that have had the same conclusions as I as to why FP and MWO has lost 90% of its player base in 5 years lets work to fix MWO and FP for everyone not just PUGS/casuals/solo/new players but units as well you must admit that the current FP battle system is a failure and needs reworked.

Faction Play lost majority of it's population in the first few weeks by players who waited years to play it and only got a lackluster pile of crap for that wait. The only reason it remained playable by the rest was because of the LP rewards. You can state that a lot of the lost population are solo players tired of being smashed by groups.

However all I've been seeing all these years is the solo population remaining about the same while there has been less and less units actively playing it. A split queue would solve no issues for this game mode except being a final nail in it's coffin by getting rid of the remaining groups and making the wait times for the solo population too ridiculous to consistantly play.

The only way out of this hole is to turn Faction Play into something people actually want to play without having to actually incentivize them to do it. Which also includes trying to bring back many of the units to play it because they are by no means a small portion of this games population and the only thing that would make them stay is by adding a bigger competitive element to it and adding stakes to winning/losing.

Also using the population to it's correct purpose. Being Units are the only ones who can conquer planets and make use of planetary rewards. They should be the core population in games. If you make units care about planetary defense as they do about conquest, they would form both the offense and defense capabilities meaning anytime a unit wants to take a planet they have to actually fight a coordinated group to do so.

Using the solo players as actual fillers to groups initiating a attack or defense. Meaning anytime a solo player drops a game they are dropping in a game with a already coordinated group to help coordinate them or carry them against other groups. This will interest units by giving them actual groups to play against and help solo players by giving them a actual coordinated team to play with and coordinate them.

A game mode about units conquering planets in groups where planets don't matter because there is no purpose to either conquering them or defending them because of the planetary rewards cap. Where majority of the teams formed are formed by solo players which offers both no competition or reason for existing due to them not being able to capture a planet.

In a no matchmaking environment where the groups that do exist have to constantly fight these solo player teams in order to conquer planets which don't matter to them. Where new players can enter at will with no knowledge of the games mechanics and get slaughterd by this environment. This is why this game mode has been dieing since it's release, there are many other reasons but to me that is the core reason.

[50 50]

OZHomerOZ, on 07 June 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

My idea:

FW Group Queue = Front line Troops
FW Solo Queue = Garrison Troops (If there a FW solo que)

Fluff: Elite Front line troops take planets which the garrison troops hold

Only the FW Group Que can tag planets, if this is not satisfactory, get Elite and join a unit.

A FW Solo que can be a non threatening way to introduce folks to FW and when they are ready, be a source of pilots for the FW Group Que.

And the Groups get their own que wid no dire pugs to spoil the shenangans. Maybe all groups won't be happy about dat.

If I'm reading that correctly this specifically would place solos as the defenders against the teams.

[James Argent]

Well, it is specified that this is the 'fluff' explanation for the separate queues, so in game terms it's just a reason for the premades to reassure themselves that they're not in any danger of a solo random-tag player beating out an 8-12 man premade to tag a planet. PUGs would still play against PUGs, but it would be 'garrison fights' with raiding forces of other PUGs on the offense, not anything where a planet would change hands.

[Pat Kell]

James Argent, on 07 June 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

To which my answer is: But you were able to put in this work in the absence of a PUG farming regime. Everybody was learning and improving at the same time. Those days no longer exist and you can't stubbornly refuse to allow your behavior to be modified by changing the mode to account for an entrenched minority effectively ruining the mode for what should be the majority.

Today's event includes FW, and it's just a one-day challenge. Shortly after the event opened it took me 20 minutes to get matched on a team for each FW match. To meet the requirements of the 'challenge' you don't have to win or even score a single point of damage...you just have to participate twice. Yet still, hardly anybody was queueing for FW when it should've been hopping. People simply aren't playing it the way it is.

I was going to comment on most of you're comments above but decided it just wasn't worth my time. All you are doing is twisting people's words and putting them in a context that suits your narrative and any one who doesn't see through your rhetorical nonsense isn't going to understand my explanation anyway. So I will just point out that your entire premise right from the start is wrong. Pugs were farmed right at the beginning. I know this because I dropped both as a KCOM team member and farmed pugs and also dropped solo and was farmed by MS and other teams RIGHT FROM THE START OF CW.

Second, I can absolutely refuse to allow my behavior to be modified if I so chose. To say any different is to claim that you somehow own me and my behavior. You do not.

Third, we are not refusing to have the game mode changed in any way to try to make it better, we are simply pointing out potential pitfalls in some of the ideas that were put forth. If you had spent more time trying to understand our posts instead of coming up with what you felt were witty or snarky commentary to mask your contempt for us, you could have avoided all of this from the start. You want the ques split, lets try it. You want to ban lower tier people from CW, let's try it. Let's try every single idea that's out there until we find one that works but while we're waiting for the coding and patching to come along, lets take the time to talk about potential pitfalls so that we can start with the idea that seems the most likely to work. Don't care what it is but what we are not doing is saying that we should absolutely not do it no matter what because Brawndo's got what plants crave (yea, I get it, you were calling us idiots...). All I am asking is that people stop closing their minds off to ideas simply because they didn't like getting stomped, therefore split the ques and if you disagree, you're an idiot or a pug farmer or are ruining the game for everyone. Which leads me to #

4. We are not ruining this game for anyone. Neither my team or any other team is responsible for ruining CW. Two things have put us in the situation we are in now, PGI's programming decisions (probably most at fault here to be honest) and people deciding to quit. Do not blame me when someone quits because they got stomped over and over and over again. How is that my fault? It is not. It is the fault of the individual who continues to let it happen and refused to figure out a way to make it stop. Trust me, it's possible and many teams and solo players have figured it out. Just because some people decided they didn't like and decided to quit does not make me responsible for it.

And lastly, most people are clans right now so your wait times are going to be longer no matter what. I am hearing that IS are getting insta drops so we may be heading that way soon.

So, in short, please rethink you're entire post as the pretend conversation was twisted and out of context and nearly every point you try to make in you "answer" is either factual incorrect (1&2), full of false allegations(3), assigning blame to the wrong group of people (4) or just flat out unwilling to understand the situation as it currently is, thus leading to false ideas of the cause of said situation.

Edited by Pat Kell, 07 June 2017 - 04:26 PM.

[TWIAFU]

[

James Argent, on 07 June 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

Well, it is specified that this is the 'fluff' explanation for the separate queues, so in game terms it's just a reason for the premades to reassure themselves that they're not in any danger of a solo random-tag player beating out an 8-12 man premade to tag a planet. PUGs would still play against PUGs, but it would be 'garrison fights' with raiding forces of other PUGs on the offense, not anything where a planet would change hands.

But the whole point to CW is to take planets. Unit Vs Unit, Group vs Group for control of the Inner Sphere. Getting the tag is what we are fighting for.

Be easier to just put CW maps in QP for pugs to play with.

You playing CW for the fight for the Inner Sphere or for mech bays as an example?

Your answer dictates how your CW experiences will be. I mean, if your playing CW as a means to an end, mech bays again for example, and your having a horrible time you don't change the game as it were, change how you play it.

[General Solo]

50 50, on 07 June 2017 - 02:09 PM, said:

If I'm reading that correctly this specifically would place solos as the defenders against the teams.

No not at all, that stuff is the fluff explaining why solo's can't tag planets.
No my idea is groups fight only groups, and solo's fight only solo's.
When a solo ask's why I can't tag planets, its coz they iz garrision troops

Cato Zilks, on 07 June 2017 - 11:03 AM, said:

God, why do people keep posting this stupid crap. Read the forum, a bunch of people have already pitched split cues and matchmakers. The response is not going to change. If you split the cues in any hard manner it will add significant wait times and players will seek to get around the hard barrier to get matches. Any solution that promotes a hard barrier is a bad solution.

I ain't got time to read 12 pages of whining.
I skimmed it
Good luck with your dieing Game mode.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 07 June 2017 - 07:07 PM.

[50 50]

TWIAFU, on 07 June 2017 - 04:36 PM, said:

But the whole point to CW is to take planets. Unit Vs Unit, Group vs Group for control of the Inner Sphere. Getting the tag is what we are fighting for.

I reckon that statement right there is one of the problems.
Not the unit v unit/group v group bit, the getting the tag (hahahahahaha, yay.) and the whole only point is to capture planets.

Maybe we need an additional option to Scouting and Invasion. 8 v 8 raids?
However I'm really against the idea of further breaking up the mode into different queues and further dividing player participation when it could all be done under the one 'Invasion' banner.

Faction Play needs solo players to participate in addition to just getting more regular unit participation simply to increase the numbers.
We need to allow solo players to mix with the units so they can have the opportunity to learn, improve and even get invited to those units. Someone mentioned ages ago about how the mingling of players was a great way to identify potential unit members. Think it was prior to the attempted queue split. Anyway....
There will always be the potential to have players just want to play the mode 'casually' and not worry so much about the overall scheme of galactic conquest and the conflict we see in the player base is because these players do not have an avenue to enjoy the mode without either getting stomped or handicapping the team they might end up with. That is not to say all PUGs or even teams are so casual. The mode simply does not allow for it and it is such a knife edge that small mistakes can be punished harshly. This is why it is considered an elitist/competitive mode.

OZHomerOZ, on 07 June 2017 - 07:05 PM, said:

No not at all, that stuff is the fluff explaining why solo's can't tag planets.
No my idea is groups fight only groups, and solo's fight only solo's.
When a solo ask's why I can't tag planets, its coz they iz garrision troops

Ah, right.
Got it.

[KingCobra]

50 50, on 07 June 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

I reckon that statement right there is one of the problems.
Not the unit v unit/group v group bit, the getting the tag (hahahahahaha, yay.) and the whole only point is to capture planets.

Maybe we need an additional option to Scouting and Invasion. 8 v 8 raids?
However I'm really against the idea of further breaking up the mode into different queues and further dividing player participation when it could all be done under the one 'Invasion' banner.

Faction Play needs solo players to participate in addition to just getting more regular unit participation simply to increase the numbers.
We need to allow solo players to mix with the units so they can have the opportunity to learn, improve and even get invited to those units. Someone mentioned ages ago about how the mingling of players was a great way to identify potential unit members. Think it was prior to the attempted queue split. Anyway....
There will always be the potential to have players just want to play the mode 'casually' and not worry so much about the overall scheme of galactic conquest and the conflict we see in the player base is because these players do not have an avenue to enjoy the mode without either getting stomped or handicapping the team they might end up with. That is not to say all PUGs or even teams are so casual. The mode simply does not allow for it and it is such a knife edge that small mistakes can be punished harshly. This is why it is considered an elitist/competitive mode.


Ah, right.
Got it.

I agree with you on most of your post but here is the one thing that is killing FP the most its the wait time for pug/solo/casual players to join matches its up to 30+ min wait.

Then there is the problem that a majority of MWO players do not want to be in units or groups if this was not the case FP would be thriving.

That's why I proposed a split FP queue system so the majority of MWO players that want to play FP can get quick games in like QP queues and eventfully migrate into units and groups if that is what the choose.

But the units/groups want FP dead they want the excitement of seal clubbing the last PUG/solo/new player until the game mode is removed they say owe that's not what we want but in truth they just want easy wins to collect there rewards.

they can prove me wrong by telling RUSS hey FP needs to be changed to a split queue system like I and many have proposed.

[Mi Ro Ki]

James Argent, on 07 June 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

Yet still, hardly anybody was queueing for FW when it should've been hopping. People simply aren't playing it the way it is.

To be fair the modes are garbage for any competitive faction play game. Introducing QP modes to FP was a huge error on PGI behalf. Lazy devs. I'm not surprised by this at all that no one was queing up.


Overall with this threads topic you're kidding yourself if you think the FP would survive without pugs or non seasoned. They already went through this in CW phase 2-3, seperating the ques. So that topic is pretty much null and void right now.

[KingCobra]

DarklightCA, on 07 June 2017 - 08:10 PM, said:

[redacted]

Personal attacks will get you nowhere sport.

And yes a 30 min wait to just play FP is totally ridicules for non group players.

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 12 June 2017 - 10:44 AM.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

KingCobra, on 07 June 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

Personal attacks will get you nowhere sport.

And yes a 30 min wait to just play FP is totally ridicules for non group players.

30 min wait time is ridiculous for any player, grouped or not. That is the whole point people are trying to make, Splitting the queue once more will only increase that wait time for both solo and grouped players. Which is exactly what happened the last time they split the queues and added a solo queue, the solo queue was so empty that solos began creating their own one man units just so they could drop in the unit/group queue. (you can argue about event and scouting and rewards etc. as reasons why... but it doesn't change what happened and that the solo queue was a ghost town).