425 replies to this topic

[KingCobra]

Jaybles, on 07 June 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:

30 min wait time is ridiculous for any player, grouped or not. That is the whole point people are trying to make, Splitting the queue once more will only increase that wait time for both solo and grouped players. Which is exactly what happened the last time they split the queues and added a solo queue, the solo queue was so empty that solos began creating their own one man units just so they could drop in the unit/group queue. (you can argue about event and scouting and rewards etc. as reasons why... but it doesn't change what happened and that the solo queue was a ghost town).

Last time PGI messed up it was not a split totally like im talking about all PGI did was split tagged and untagged players.

What im talking about its a total split of solo/casual/new players from group queues in FP except 1- 2 man group on each side so basically you would drop just like you do now in FP 12 Vs 12 except without groups lager than a 2 man group on each side.

4man-12man groups would basically have there own drops in FP separately,

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

KingCobra, on 07 June 2017 - 08:38 PM, said:

Last time PGI messed up it was not a split totally like im talking about all PGI did was split tagged and untagged players.

What im talking about its a total split of solo/casual/new players from group queues in FP except 1- 2 man group on each side so basically you would drop just like you do now in FP 12 Vs 12 except without groups lager than a 2 man group on each side.

4man-12man groups would basically have there own drops in FP separately,

PGI didn't mess it up... PGI implemented exactly what you are asking for minus the 2 man group thing.

The players chose to create their own units in order to keep dropping solo with the groups.

Let me repeat that.... The SOLO PLAYER BASE CHOSE TO TAG THEMSELVES and keep dropping with the groups.

[DarklightCA]

KingCobra, on 07 June 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

Personal attacks will get you nowhere sport.

And yes a 30 min wait to just play FP is totally ridicules for non group players.

Since when was stating something you said was stupid a personal attack? It's not like I am calling you stupid. I also never disagreed that 30 min wait times are ridiculous and that wait time is for everybody.

I was pointing out that taking an already existing problem of long wait times due to low populations and splitting that population in half would only increase wait times.

[SmokedJag]

DarklightCA, on 07 June 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

Faction Play lost majority of it's population in the first few weeks by players who waited years to play it and only got a lackluster pile of crap for that wait. The only reason it remained playable by the rest was because of the LP rewards. You can state that a lot of the lost population are solo players tired of being smashed by groups.

However all I've been seeing all these years is the solo population remaining about the same while there has been less and less units actively playing it. A split queue would solve no issues for this game mode except being a final nail in it's coffin by getting rid of the remaining groups and making the wait times for the solo population too ridiculous to consistantly play.

The only way out of this hole is to turn Faction Play into something people actually want to play without having to actually incentivize them to do it. Which also includes trying to bring back many of the units to play it because they are by no means a small portion of this games population and the only thing that would make them stay is by adding a bigger competitive element to it and adding stakes to winning/losing.

Also using the population to it's correct purpose. Being Units are the only ones who can conquer planets and make use of planetary rewards. They should be the core population in games. If you make units care about planetary defense as they do about conquest, they would form both the offense and defense capabilities meaning anytime a unit wants to take a planet they have to actually fight a coordinated group to do so.

Using the solo players as actual fillers to groups initiating a attack or defense. Meaning anytime a solo player drops a game they are dropping in a game with a already coordinated group to help coordinate them or carry them against other groups. This will interest units by giving them actual groups to play against and help solo players by giving them a actual coordinated team to play with and coordinate them.

A game mode about units conquering planets in groups where planets don't matter because there is no purpose to either conquering them or defending them because of the planetary rewards cap. Where majority of the teams formed are formed by solo players which offers both no competition or reason for existing due to them not being able to capture a planet.

In a no matchmaking environment where the groups that do exist have to constantly fight these solo player teams in order to conquer planets which don't matter to them. Where new players can enter at will with no knowledge of the games mechanics and get slaughterd by this environment. This is why this game mode has been dieing since it's release, there are many other reasons but to me that is the core reason.

All of this comes down to player population. During Tukayyid it was fine, mostly as described here.

The problem is that with small population, the mode does things that drives away even more population. Most of which is the fault of the more organized teams LOLing and making it miserable on PUG teams. Getting instantly killed by three BLG with large pulse and then dropzone farmed does not make people want to try again. There is no reason whatsoever to use tactics like that against PUGs.

The usual solution to jackass powergamers is to, shock, not play with them. Go play comp if you want to act that way.

Edited by SmokedJag, 08 June 2017 - 03:18 AM.

[TWIAFU]

KingCobra, on 07 June 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

Personal attacks will get you nowhere sport.

And yes a 30 min wait to just play FP is totally ridicules for non group players.

Hmmm, easiest solution;

GROUP UP! Not like that is the primary design of the mode. Not like you know being solo in CW will be much harder.

You know what, you get solo to be allowed to drop in group QP and see how that goes before we even think about anything else.

KingCobra, on 07 June 2017 - 08:38 PM, said:

Last time PGI messed up it was not a split totally like im talking about all PGI did was split tagged and untagged players.

What im talking about its a total split of solo/casual/new players from group queues in FP except 1- 2 man group on each side so basically you would drop just like you do now in FP 12 Vs 12 except without groups lager than a 2 man group on each side.

4man-12man groups would basically have there own drops in FP separately,

Well then, that makes sense. You and your buddy in a two man group want to farm potatoes in your solo queues with expections.

You want to farm but not be farmed.

[Scyther]

While some people are taking all this a bit too personally, I think there is a lot of interesting debate and some good ideas flying around here. Unfortunately a lot of people are also stating 'facts' about how and why FP/queues/previous changes worked out the way they did, without actually providing any solid data or reference.

Unfortunately we really need some of the data that only PGI can provide. (More unfortunately of course, PGI doesn't care what we think until we can get a few dozen people to all tweet Russ with support for the same notion.)

Once this event is done I think I will try gathering some numbers on actual, normal, FP population, wait times, and Pug/Group balance. This will take a while since I don't normally play a lot of FP and there are other things going on.

If anyone else has any actual data or references for non-event FP numbers I'd love to see it. (IE., actual data is not your anecdotal recall of your last two matches, but a decent range of non-cherry picked drop results)

On another note, I really wish PGI would use these events that increase FP populations to actually test a few potential changes to FP, instead of showing everyone "it's a kinda wonky mode where you drop to get your event rewards and then get back out again asap".

Edit: The primary question I would like to see addressed is "How do we introduce more people to FP in such a way that they are more likely to stay, to play, to get better, to learn what works in FP and what doesn't, and to eventually join units or groups for more team-oriented play?"

Other question is "What is the actual typical 'new-to-FP player experience' for a player just starting out in FP?"

Edited by MadBadger, 08 June 2017 - 07:28 AM.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

MadBadger, on 08 June 2017 - 06:32 AM, said:

While some people are taking all this a bit too personally, I think there is a lot of interesting debate and some good ideas flying around here. Unfortunately a lot of people are also stating 'facts' about how and why FP/queues/previous changes worked out the way they did, without actually providing any solid data or reference.

Unfortunately we really need some of the data that only PGI can provide. (More unfortunately of course, PGI doesn't care what we think until we can get a few dozen people to all tweet Russ with support for the same notion.)

Once this event is done I think I will try gathering some numbers on actual, normal, FP population, wait times, and Pug/Group balance. This will take a while since I don't normally play a lot of FP and there are other things going on.

If anyone else has any actual data or references for non-event FP numbers I'd love to see it. (IE., actual data is not your anecdotal recall of your last two matches, but a decent range of non-cherry picked drop results)

On another note, I really wish PGI would use these events that increase FP populations to actually test a few potential changes to FP, instead of showing everyone "it's a kinda wonky mode where you drop to get your event rewards and then get back out again asap".

Edit: The primary question I would like to see addressed is "How do we introduce more people to FP in such a way that they are more likely to stay, to play, to get better, to learn what works in FP and what doesn't, and to eventually join units or groups for more team-oriented play?"

Other question is "What is the actual typical 'new-to-FP player experience' for a player just starting out in FP?"

Here is the official statement from PGI regarding the decision to abandon the solo queue.

Regarding the decision to merge of Solo and Unit Queues

Splitting the Faction Play Queue into Solo and Unit Queues was something we had received a lot of requests for since Faction Play was first introduced. The intention behind its release with Phase 3 on April 19th was to provide a more even playing field for players who were not part of an organized Unit.
However, after monitoring the population of the two Queues through the week since its release we are going to be merging the Solo and Unit Faction Play Queues back into a single Queue. While the 4v4 structure of Scouting worked reasonably well in the Solo Queue for certain Factions, there were simply not enough Invasion matches kicking off in Solo.
We are going to continue exploring new features and enhancements for Faction Play to help improve the overall experience for players of all types. For now we feel this represents the best overall option for ensuring players who want to participate in Faction Play can do so reliably, with minimal waiting, and with access to all of its game modes.

linky:

https://mwomercs.com...for-04-28-2016/

[Deathlike]

You can't have contradictory/exclusionary behaviors like "30 minutes waits" and "split queues" as one would be directly affected by the other (you can't have both unless you decided today was day 1 of CW/FP, which is not even the case).

[naterist]

Yall keep calling it a soloque. thats rediculous, it was unit/nonunit. A nonunit and unit split is dumb. A solo/grouped split is less dumb.

The point is not to split the units playground into units and solos. The point is to add a stepping stone, and a place to play when anly 1-3 of your friends are online. Yes, 1-3 people can change a match. Thats ok, because normally those guys are just a match away from getting in a bigger group as more people log in. That isnt an issue. As it stands, when i drop with anything over 8 people its almost insta drops.

What does all that mean? Assuming they split it by group size, they have only one forseeable problem left with ques.

Filler in group que for groups with over 9 people (assuming smallgroup/solo que allows groups of 3 or less as i would reccomend for new to fw player training purposes). Are there solutions to that problem? Ya.

My solution is letting people over rank 15 in their faction be filler for both ques. If theyve been playing long enough, theyll either be fine, or they have no hope anyways, so its same as now, except you max out at 3 of those types of guys, instead of having half a team of em v kcom or ek.

Edited by naterist, 08 June 2017 - 08:24 AM.

[Deathlike]

naterist, on 08 June 2017 - 08:22 AM, said:

Yall keep calling it a soloque. thats rediculous, it was unit/nonunit. A nonunit and unit split is dumb. A solo/grouped split is less dumb.

The point is not to split the units playground into units and solos. The point is to add a stepping stone, and a place to play when anly 1-3 of your friends are online. Yes, 1-3 people can change a match. Thats ok, because normally those guys are just a match away from getting in a bigger group as more people log in. That isnt an issue. As it stands, when i drop with anything over 8 people its almost insta drops.

What does all that mean? Assuming they split it by group size, they have only one forseeable problem left with ques.

Filler in group que for groups with over 9 people (assuming smallgroup/solo que allows groups of 3 or less as i would reccomend for new to fw player training purposes). Are there solutions to that problem? Ya.

My solution is letting people over rank 15 in their faction be filler for both ques. If theyve been playing long enough, theyll either be fine, or they have no hope anyways, so its same as now, except you max out at 3 of those types of guys, instead of having half a team of em v kcom or ek.

I'm not sure if you had been paying attention, but the last major FP/CW change was to consolidate the buckets in order for more people to play.

Doing the opposite by splitting the queues is not going to solve the still continually held problem that the mode faces already.

Also, faction rank is still primarily an XP bar, and not a determination of skill or competence whatsoever.

Your problem is that you're saying "hey, let's give that horse water by giving it a special bucket" when the reality is that "the horse does not want to drink the water". Giving the horse access to water is one thing, but you can't make it drink that water. That is your major error with your understanding of what you're providing as an answer.

Edited by Deathlike, 08 June 2017 - 08:34 AM.

[naterist]

Well you dont spilt scouting and dont put an individual que for each planet and well be fine.

Also, i realize faction rank doesnt mean much, but it takes a while to get to rank 15, especially if your losing, and its the only built in thing besides teir we have.

[Deathlike]

naterist, on 08 June 2017 - 08:34 AM, said:

Well you dont spilt scouting and dont put an individual que for each planet and well be fine.

You're going to address nothing by doing that.

Since you're implying that groups are maxed out at 4, this also means that people that intend to play scouting may or may not get it AND that also made dilute that pool (people will play in modes that they are willing to play, and you can't actually add the voting system because you need 12 people for a 12 player Invasion/Siege drop).

So, it won't work the way you think it would and it would cause unintended consequences.

With regards to planets, the max planets is 4 (1 for each clan). If you're just going to consolidate that behavior (just 1 planet for all Clans to attack, which may be problematic if you're rewarding only one unit - poorly I might add), then as far as Clans are concerned, they are "lumped together' like IS is currently (one "group" faction with a different color (or animal for Clans))... further diluting the point of CW/FP when it comes to being a faction.

Quote

Also, i realize faction rank doesnt mean much, but it takes a while to get to rank 15, especially if your losing, and its the only built in thing besides teir we have.

You realize how LONG it takes to GET to rank 15? It is not trivial.

Edited by Deathlike, 08 June 2017 - 08:41 AM.

[naterist]

Also deathlike, as the only guy in this arguement helping run a unit dedicated to fw, and also biweekly operates training for new players and actively recruits old AND NEW alike, i think i know i bit more about what the damn horse is gonna drink.

[Deathlike]

naterist, on 08 June 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

Also deathlike, as the only guy in this arguement helping run a unit dedicated to fw, and also biweekly operates training for new players and actively recruits old AND NEW alike, i think i know i bit more about what the damn horse is gonna drink.

I've played FW, run in multiple Tukayyids, drop commanded, and won... I'm pretty sure that you're limited understanding of the logistical problems of CW/FP, let alone the fundamental problems of CW/FP is not being solved by your answers.

The complaints I experience/hear is more in line with what units have said time and again that need actual fundamental addressing and what you're suggesting is closer to putting lipstick on a pig.

[naterist]

Your problem is no one plays. Despite all the underlying roots of it, that is your problem.

You have large groups of people who like the idea, every event you see posts here from new players who want to play, but are confused AF because of the disparities between groups, and solos in a que that doesnt differentiate. They then quit. Ive seen it time and again personally, AND seen it here on the forums.

Since you have players who want to play, except for one issue, and your problem is that you need more players, then id say my solution REALLY helps it out. Further specializing fw to cater to units only when only a minority of units consistently play only makes the problems worse.

[Deathlike]

naterist, on 08 June 2017 - 08:51 AM, said:

Your problem is no one plays. Despite all the underlying roots of it, that is your problem.

You have large groups of people who like the idea, every event you see posts here from new players who want to play, but are confused AF because of the disparities between groups, and solos in a que that doesnt differentiate. They then quit. Ive seen it time and again personally, AND seen it here on the forums.

Since you have players who want to play, except for one issue, and your problem is that you need more players, then id say my solution REALLY helps it out. Further specializing fw to cater to units only when only a minority of units consistently play only makes the problems worse.

The problem is the mode itself. Tunnels and funnels in FP/CW maps are a huge problem for Siege/Invasion.

Phase 3's Long Tom pretty much killed the population wholesale.

Phase 2's "Counter Attack" is akin to the current Phase 4's Skirmish, that is... a kill everyone deal (farming is required in this mode to succeed).

In essence, the problem is mode fundamental than what you're suggesting... that and people not willing to work with each other (mostly the "soloist" player that does their own thing to the detriment of the team).


CW is supposed to be built on units AND should be founded on teamwork. When players do not move, shoot, and play in the same direction, it's just asking for a bigger hill to climb. That is why this mode rarely progresses for people... that already has a huge learning curve for many people involved.

Lowering the bar in this instance means lowering expectations and competence... none of which is going to be achieved by mechanics that don't influence actual play.

[DarklightCA]

SmokedJag, on 08 June 2017 - 03:17 AM, said:

All of this comes down to player population. During Tukayyid it was fine, mostly as described here.

The problem is that with small population, the mode does things that drives away even more population. Most of which is the fault of the more organized teams LOLing and making it miserable on PUG teams. Getting instantly killed by three BLG with large pulse and then dropzone farmed does not make people want to try again. There is no reason whatsoever to use tactics like that against PUGs.

The usual solution to jackass powergamers is to, shock, not play with them. Go play comp if you want to act that way.

My problem with what your saying is that it's somehow a organized groups problem they are beating disorganized players. I don't understand how it's their fault for playing the game well and doing it so well that they are capable of putting themselves in a disadvantage by fighting you in your own dropzone under the cover of your dropships firepower.

I've played under hidden rules when fighting pug teams as a organized group. I've waited patiently outside the drop zone and waited and waited. You want to know what happens? Pug teams just camp it the entire time majority of the time. I adapted to just killing the gens hoping they would get the balls to come out to save the objective, nope.

Regardless of what I do as a organized group, no matter what limitations I set for myself. I will always be hated by those players. Regardless if I kill them in their dropzone or wait outside it, they will always ***** at me. You can blame organized groups all you want but if you are going to be camping your dropzone, I am going to go in there and kill you.

[Deathlike]

DarklightCA, on 08 June 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

My problem with what your saying is that it's somehow a organized groups problem they are beating disorganized players. I don't understand how it's their fault for playing the game well and doing it so well that they are capable of putting themselves in a disadvantage by fighting you in your own dropzone under the cover of your dropships firepower.

I've played under hidden rules when fighting pug teams as a organized group. I've waited patiently outside the drop zone and waited and waited. You want to know what happens? Pug teams just camp it the entire time majority of the time. I adapted to just killing the gens hoping they would get the balls to come out to save the objective, nope.

Regardless of what I do as a organized group, no matter what limitations I set for myself. I will always be hated by those players. Regardless if I kill them in their dropzone or wait outside it, they will always ***** at me. You can blame organized groups all you want but if you are going to be camping your dropzone, I am going to go in there and kill you.

The thing about that is that more often than not... anyone that is organized is going to beat on anything disorganized. It works in real life, not just in games.

I mean, I know people commonly talk about carrying, and that's a thing in this game... but when you come to the point where you HAVE to carry for the entire team is where you lose (which is what effectively most "soloish" players do and fail miserably more often than not). When you have everyone having that kind of mentality, you don't really have a chance of winning.

Getting organized is the first step to acknowledging that teamwork is powerful/OP.

[naterist]

Deathlike, on 08 June 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

The thing about that is that more often than not... anyone that is organized is going to beat on anything disorganized. It works in real life, not just in games.

I mean, I know people commonly talk about carrying, and that's a thing in this game... but when you come to the point where you HAVE to carry for the entire team is where you lose (which is what effectively most "soloish" players do and fail miserably more often than not). When you have everyone having that kind of mentality, you don't really have a chance of winning.

Getting organized is the first step to acknowledging that teamwork is powerful/OP.

That sounds like an arguement for splitting ques between big groups and pug/small group que. Have like coordinated teams fight each other.

[Deathlike]

naterist, on 08 June 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

That sounds like an arguement for splitting ques between big groups and pug/small group que. Have like coordinated teams fight each other.

No... if you wanted to play truly solo... there's quick play for that. Zero need for that in FP/CW.