425 replies to this topic

[naterist]

MischiefSC, on 09 June 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

Yet again.

Put the FP content, maps/modes, in QP. Already a MM and queue split there. People who just want to play the content and derp can and then rage about how it's always someone elses fault when they lose can play it there. A forum like this is not an environment where you're going to teach self-respect, personal accountability and the desire to achieve to anyone. It's a game, for some people any amount of 'effort' isn't fun. Participation trophies didn't get created on a lark, they exist to fill a need for a significant segment of the human population.

The whole issue around 'teams are so mean' isn't something anyone here is going to fix. The real question is how do you make FW compelling at an energy/effort/investment level PGI would be willing to take a shot at. Some form of concrete faction identity, be that loyalist or merc. Something to 'be invested in'. Some form of faction level logistics - not so that players have to spend a crap ton of time out of match doing accounting but having fights that really matter winning or losing and that give those 'factions' tools (ideally slightly individually unique tools) to drive their populations and other populations to shift to win the fights that matter or recover from losing the ones that matter.

That would get units back. It would go a long way toward making FW more like what was promised years ago that got everyone excited about the idea originally.

all of that is cool and interesting stuff, but until we get people who go into faction play to, and i quote from the pgi written steam description, "assume the role of an elite MechWarrior, fighting for supremacy over the galaxy," until we get people coming to the game for that to stop feeling like npc lvl 1 rats in runescape, then fw will not grow. mischief, you need people interested enough in the game and the mode to be there in order to do any of those things.

[DarklightCA]

naterist, on 09 June 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

all of that is cool and interesting stuff, but until we get people who go into faction play to, and i quote from the pgi written steam description, "assume the role of an elite MechWarrior, fighting for supremacy over the galaxy," until we get people coming to the game for that to stop feeling like npc lvl 1 rats in runescape, then fw will not grow. mischief, you need people interested enough in the game and the mode to be there in order to do any of those things.

Taking away the fact that there already is a game mode dedicated towards the players that "feel like npc lvl 1 rats in runescape" Let's consider for a second that most people don't feel that way. Let's consider that perhaps there are other reasons why people don't want to play Faction Play.

Something like the fact it's a poorly designed game mode that offers no playability that's any different than what quick play already provides with poorly designed maps. Perhaps if there was things that could add more depth to the game mode, the factions, loyalists and mercs that PGI would actually be willing to add to make it more interesting and help differentiate it from quick play then perhaps some people would be willing to come back and play it.

[Insanity09]

@ Deathlike.

Perhaps I should have explained better what I was doing. I was summarizing the more significant suggestions I had seen in this thread and elsewhere, including the objections (as rebuttals) to those suggestions. I find that to be a useful tool when a thread gets to a certain size (reading the entire thing over again gets onerous). So, I skim the thread to glean what seem to be common/major themes and condense it into one, hopefully simplified post.

So, the "solution?" items are ideas I've seen people put forth to improve FW pop. The rebuttals I put in are, without exception, not mine. They are all comments/responses/counters that other people have put forth. I do admit that I agree with some of the objections, specifically those against the tier split.

Perhaps I did a poor job of summing things up, perhaps I paraphrased badly.
However, I also think you are entirely correct, many of the objections are strawmen. They do try and restate or reframe the suggested solution in such a way as to make it easy to shoot down. A lamentably common practice on the web.

On to the meat...
Manipulating or training solos IS terrifically hard. This is one of the reasons that PUGs do so badly in FW, even when somebody is doing a good job of calling . If even 2 out of 12 people don't listen and work together as a team, that is a disadvantage for everyone, and a loss, a bad one, is far more likely. However, that would not prevent a skilled person from recognizing those who were making a decent effort to be a team player and promoting them, if you will. That's pretty much how I got started in FW.

Yes, uneven population and long wait times are an issue. Many folks seem to suspect that is a part of what has driven the FW population down. In the short term, I don't think a group/solo FW queue split would help that situation in any way. In the long term, on the other hand... well, it might be worth a try.


As far as showering rewards being a bad motivator, the entire video game industry is founded on the idea of virtual rewards for doing virtual stuff. More risk/difficulty and complexity are commonly accepted as deserving of greater rewards. By that simple logic, FW in MWO does need a higher reward scheme (as it is considered more challenging, and certainly is a bit more complicated, with the inclusion of the drop deck mechanic alone).
Ideally, yes, no further rewards beyond those implemented now (reputation ranks) should be needed. Unfortunately, we do not live in that ideal world, and clearly the current reward scheme is not sufficient motivation.
I suspect that the reputation system (the main "improved" reward method) is too grindy and a little too theoretical (once past the first few ranks) to seem rewarding for most people. So, for most people FW does not seem more rewarding, and thus isn't worth the extra trouble.

Yet, events with FW goals do often show a spike in FW pop. So, giving more immediate results and more direct goals does seem to be enough to interest people, at least temporarily. Get enough people interested on a regular basis, and the habit might just become even more regular than the events, particularly if they unit, or at least group, up to do it. Pure Pavlov.

Regretfully, though I think FW needs some significant changes, I don't think there is enough population to justify any major effort in that area. For now, I think we need to be content with potentially small changes, easily coded, to the existing FW system that might, might, allow the population to increase to a point where such changes are realistic. (at which point, PGI hopefully rolls out such major changes gradually, rather than traumatically, all at once. Sigh.)

[Leggin Ho]

PFC Carsten, on 09 June 2017 - 07:43 AM, said:

So, what are you going to lose? Afraid that there are no more seals to club? Why the hell should FaP NOT be available to everyone to each's own ability?


I regularly face people from various units in Solo queue. No problem with that. No QQ, no insults, give and receive a beating. Don't know what you talk about. No one looses, except tryhards who might miss their seals...


Good, I prefer decent battles as well, in QP as well as FaP. I, on the other hand, do not wish to exlcude anyone from the game, who just wants to have fun in it.

You have alot of idea for someone that has not even played enough FP drops to show on the leader board i believe that means 10 victories, but I could be incorrect, it may be less....

[Kubernetes]

PFC Carsten, on 09 June 2017 - 04:08 AM, said:

At least some kind of thinking, i.e. making the (two?) brain cells communicate. First step to a better world as opposed as copy-and-pasting the same nonsense phrases in a forum over and over again.

It's potato-thinking. Getting focused down in two seconds is not an issue with FW, it's an issue of potato-piloting into a massed firing line. Same happens in solo and group QP.

FWIW, plenty of good pilots drop solo in FW and do very well. They do well because they're good pilots who understand the modes and maps and they don't get hosed down in two seconds.

And stop with the seal-clubbing nonsense. Don't you get it? It's not about you. We're not looking to drop against seals, much less club them. We drop in groups because there is no other game experience in MWO that can compare to two quality 12-mans duking it out for four rounds. People talk all this crap because they've never had a higher-level experience on MWO. You guys think a bunch of solo strangers wandering haplessly around a QP map is what MWO is all about. It's not even close. We're having fun on a level you can't understand.

Edited by Kubernetes, 09 June 2017 - 08:48 PM.

[Deathlike]

Insanity09, on 09 June 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

Yes, uneven population and long wait times are an issue. Many folks seem to suspect that is a part of what has driven the FW population down. In the short term, I don't think a group/solo FW queue split would help that situation in any way. In the long term, on the other hand... well, it might be worth a try.

You can try it, but it'll fall flat on its face. It won't be sustainable even if Day 1 results come looking positive.

The thing about sustainability is that you know it's working if it holds more or less since its debut. Even the flawed version PGI put together for Phase 3 was only sustainable for a day.. which means that the inherent fundamental issues were NOT resolved (basically, you solved a minor issue but not the actual problem).

Quote

As far as showering rewards being a bad motivator, the entire video game industry is founded on the idea of virtual rewards for doing virtual stuff. More risk/difficulty and complexity are commonly accepted as deserving of greater rewards. By that simple logic, FW in MWO does need a higher reward scheme (as it is considered more challenging, and certainly is a bit more complicated, with the inclusion of the drop deck mechanic alone).
Ideally, yes, no further rewards beyond those implemented now (reputation ranks) should be needed. Unfortunately, we do not live in that ideal world, and clearly the current reward scheme is not sufficient motivation.
I suspect that the reputation system (the main "improved" reward method) is too grindy and a little too theoretical (once past the first few ranks) to seem rewarding for most people. So, for most people FW does not seem more rewarding, and thus isn't worth the extra trouble.

It's less about the grind (getting the rep/loyalty points) but more about the process (committing at most 30 minutes to the process of dropping in FW/CP and the objective/match goals).

Quote

Yet, events with FW goals do often show a spike in FW pop. So, giving more immediate results and more direct goals does seem to be enough to interest people, at least temporarily. Get enough people interested on a regular basis, and the habit might just become even more regular than the events, particularly if they unit, or at least group, up to do it. Pure Pavlov.

The only time I really show up is the bribes. I'm not even trying to hide the reasons.

Quote

Regretfully, though I think FW needs some significant changes, I don't think there is enough population to justify any major effort in that area. For now, I think we need to be content with potentially small changes, easily coded, to the existing FW system that might, might, allow the population to increase to a point where such changes are realistic. (at which point, PGI hopefully rolls out such major changes gradually, rather than traumatically, all at once. Sigh.)

Those small changes won't be enough... because it's more core and fundamental related. That's the problem.

I discuss these things in terms of a new player... because that's who that is most affected by this. I mean there's excuses, but then there are legit issues that happen for a new player (particularly the NPE), and as a consequence it's what makes CW/FP a much greater problem because "any new player" can show up and not learn what needs to be learned. That's why I've responded the way I have.

[PFC Carsten]

Kubernetes, on 09 June 2017 - 08:40 PM, said:

It's potato-thinking. Getting focused down in two seconds is not an issue with FW, it's an issue of potato-piloting into a massed firing line. Same happens in solo and group QP.

Yeah, I saw you there, right in the middle of holy potatoeness.

Kubernetes, on 09 June 2017 - 08:40 PM, said:

FWIW, plenty of good pilots drop solo in FW and do very well. They do well because they're good pilots who understand the modes and maps and they don't get hosed down in two seconds.

And stop with the seal-clubbing nonsense. Don't you get it? It's not about you. We're not looking to drop against seals, much less club them. We drop in groups because there is no other game experience in MWO that can compare to two quality 12-mans duking it out for four rounds. People talk all this crap because they've never had a higher-level experience on MWO. You guys think a bunch of solo strangers wandering haplessly around a QP map is what MWO is all about. It's not even close. We're having fun on a level you can't understand.

Correct, it is NOT about ME. That's what I wrote. Congratz on realizing that.

And yes, I realize that you guys repeatedly write about how elevated your experience is when fighting another 12-man or similar group, yet you cannot stand the thought, that there are no more seals to club in FaP. Think about it this way: If queues are separated, you get that glorious experience ALL THE TIME. Is that not completely wonderful? You should be all for it. Instead...

Leggin Ho, on 09 June 2017 - 06:12 PM, said:

You have alot of idea for someone that has not even played enough FP drops to show on the leader board i believe that means 10 victories, but I could be incorrect, it may be less....

You are correct. Do you realize how and in what timeframe the leader boards are counting? Please come back after you learned that. For starters, it is divided in seasons.

FWIW and to spell it out: I have played the two required FaP matches this month. And you get ranked from 10 matches and up. And if you must know: I am surely not the most seasoned FaP/PUG-vet, but I have had my share of the experience, I even dropped in/with some groups back a year or three.

Edited by PFC Carsten, 10 June 2017 - 01:28 AM.

[Sjorpha]

PFC Carsten, on 10 June 2017 - 01:05 AM, said:

And yes, I realize that you guys repeatedly write about how elevated your experience is when fighting another 12-man or similar group, yet you cannot stand the thought, that there are no more seals to club in FaP. Think about it this way: If queues are separated, you get that glorious experience ALL THE TIME. Is that not completely wonderful? You should be all for it. Instead...

I would definitely be "all for it" if I thought it would work without extreme wait times and a dead solo queue.

However, that is what actually happened when PGI tried a queue split with the launch of phase 3.

I'm worried that the same thing would happen again and that FP would not recover from another failure like that, it almost died in phase 3, which would be a big problem since I actually love playing the mode and would be super sad to see it go away or stop being functional.

If the population grows to a point where solo + group queue can be supported without extreme wait times for either queue, and where the results of either queue doesn't mess up the planetary conquests for the other (supposedly by having two different maps), then I'd support a 2nd attempt at split queues. I think about 500+ average players online playing the mode on non-peak hours might be enough, we're just not there but here's to hope for the future.

[KingCobra]

Sjorpha, on 10 June 2017 - 05:18 AM, said:

I would definitely be "all for it" if I thought it would work without extreme wait times and a dead solo queue.

However, that is what actually happened when PGI tried a queue split with the launch of phase 3.

I'm worried that the same thing would happen again and that FP would not recover from another failure like that, it almost died in phase 3, which would be a big problem since I actually love playing the mode and would be super sad to see it go away or stop being functional.

If the population grows to a point where solo + group queue can be supported without extreme wait times for either queue, and where the results of either queue doesn't mess up the planetary conquests for the other (supposedly by having two different maps), then I'd support a 2nd attempt at split queues. I think about 500+ average players online playing the mode on non-peak hours might be enough, we're just not there but here's to hope for the future.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well the OP of this topic said (Why We Need To Restrict FP To More Seasoned Players Only ) and I agree with him the FP queues need to be split once and for all 1-2man/pugs/casuals/solo on one FP drop system and 4man-12man on the other drop system.

The reason it failed in FP3 was lack of direction by PGI and not having a event to kick it off 90% of MWO players probably never even knew it happened before PGI pulled the game mode then caving in to the units/groups crying like baby's that Russ had pulled there seal farming so they got less rewards as groups.

It would work now because you could split the FP queues or just add a FP game mode to QP.

[PFC Carsten]

Sjorpha, on 10 June 2017 - 05:18 AM, said:

I would definitely be "all for it" if I thought it would work without extreme wait times and a dead solo queue.

However, that is what actually happened when PGI tried a queue split with the launch of phase 3

Which coincided with a four-way split of the queues, because PGI introduced Scouting at the same time. Not saying they blew it on purpose, because PGI, but...

And didn't we have planet-wise attack queues back then for each of the factions? Or was that even before... If only i'd care, maybe i would remember.

Edited by PFC Carsten, 10 June 2017 - 07:19 AM.

[Ssamout]

KingCobra, on 10 June 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The reason it failed in FP3 was lack of direction by PGI and not having a event to kick it off 90% of MWO players probably never even knew it happened before PGI pulled the game mode then caving in to the units/groups crying like baby's that Russ had pulled there seal farming so they got less rewards as groups.

Actually, all the groups / units I played with during the no-unit tag queue and the unit tag queue split liked the split for a few days because worst of the steering wheel players with trial mechs were mostly absent from the unit queue. Matches were a bit better for a while, until no-tag-solo's made their single man units and joined the unit queue (also called group queue by some who dont understand what they are speaking about) and diluted the average skill level again. The groups that liked this for a while are also the same groups many blame to be the 'seal clubbers'.

So the seal clubbing queue was better without so many seals in it. Who would have thought?! I was fun to drop as a solo into the matches (to the unit/"group"-queue) where usually all players knew what we are supposed to do, without someone holding their hand.

I'd love to try out the split to solo/group queue in faption wars IF there is an option to join the group queue as a solo.
Solo queue for farming noobs (and doing those sweet sweet 3-5k (or more??) matches with 20+ kills) and a serious queue for those who actually like to play as a team.

[naterist]

Kubernetes, on 09 June 2017 - 08:40 PM, said:

And stop with the seal-clubbing nonsense. Don't you get it? It's not about you. We're not looking to drop against seals, much less club them. We drop in groups because there is no other game experience in MWO that can compare to two quality 12-mans duking it out for four rounds. People talk all this crap because they've never had a higher-level experience on MWO. You guys think a bunch of solo strangers wandering haplessly around a QP map is what MWO is all about. It's not even close. We're having fun on a level you can't understand.

if your not in it for seal clubbing, then why wouldnt you support a split que which is suggested specifically to defend against seal clubbing?its asinins and makes people think you like the seal clubbing, if your in it for good games only theres gp.

like you said, its not about you.

[Kubernetes]

naterist, on 10 June 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

if your not in it for seal clubbing, then why wouldnt you support a split que which is suggested specifically to defend against seal clubbing?its asinins and makes people think you like the seal clubbing, if your in it for good games only theres gp.

like you said, its not about you.

I'm down with it if they can do it without creating massive queue times. My fear is that we've passed the point of no return on this issue because the FW playing population is pretty low. You can say "they need to attract more people," but this game itself isn't attracting new people above replacement level (at best). I'm pretty agnostic about who goes where and who can play what; just don't crush FW any further. Split queues were tried before when we had more pop and that didn't work. Will they work better with a different implementation? Dunno.

[naterist]

Kubernetes, on 10 June 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

I'm down with it if they can do it without creating massive queue times. My fear is that we've passed the point of no return on this issue because the FW playing population is pretty low. You can say "they need to attract more people," but this game itself isn't attracting new people above replacement level (at best). I'm pretty agnostic about who goes where and who can play what; just don't crush FW any further. Split queues were tried before when we had more pop and that didn't work. Will they work better with a different implementation? Dunno.

if they kept everything the same, but added another slider for solos that had its own effect, and rewards, and they dont go above 2 sliders, and scouting stays as is, it SHOULD be fine,

but to double down on that ive also advocated for a solo que to be released alongside a massive event, similar in scope to tukkayidd. on top of all of that, a solo que could also be brought down to the realm of 8v8 or so to help quell any fears of it not queing.

now, is there a chance that at certain times it will be empty, yes. apparently not many oceanic guys are down with the battletech and they prefer gundam or whatever it is thats hot over there atm. thats fine. european and NA times still need some love.

Edited by naterist, 10 June 2017 - 09:59 AM.

[Insanity09]

Is it that most people are not aware the earlier FW queue split was unit vs. non-unit, or do people just believe there is no difference between that and a solo vs group queue (the way it works in non-faction play)?

It seems to me, especially with the descriptions of the one man units formed at the time, that there is a marked difference, functionally and effectively.

Trying a different method can reasonably be expected to yield different results, especially if the change is publicized ahead of time, and made more attractive initially with an event of some sort, as many have suggested (naterist just above, myself and others elsewhere). Assessment of the true effectiveness of the split could be data mined over a few weeks, starting after the event finishes.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

Insanity09, on 10 June 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

Is it that most people are not aware the earlier FW queue split was unit vs. non-unit, or do people just believe there is no difference between that and a solo vs group queue (the way it works in non-faction play)?

It seems to me, especially with the descriptions of the one man units formed at the time, that there is a marked difference, functionally and effectively.

Trying a different method can reasonably be expected to yield different results, especially if the change is publicized ahead of time, and made more attractive initially with an event of some sort, as many have suggested (naterist just above, myself and others elsewhere). Assessment of the true effectiveness of the split could be data mined over a few weeks, starting after the event finishes.

People are aware of the difference. People are pointing out that when PGI tried to split the queues, there were many many untagged players. Many of those players chose to tag and drop in the same queue as the groups rather than remain untagged and drop in the solo queue. Keep in mind, you could be a solo non unit member loyalist and still drop in the Solo queue.

I think though that you are grossly mis-representing the position of many on here. We're not against a split queue per se. We just feel that it is going to fail as it did before and would prefer to see PGI invest development time into making FP have more depth and substance and creating new game modes designed for respawns instead of trying to cookie cutter things.

Or to summarize, I would rather PGI do things in development that would bring back the veteran and competitive populations to their stated endgame mode rather than making the mode more new player friendly.

If you somehow convince PGI to split the queues again, please still let solos drop with the groups, because I for one would still rather solo drop against groups than solo in the potato fields.

Edited by Jaybles, 10 June 2017 - 11:40 AM.

[James Argent]

The major difference is that while a solo player could just tag themselves and solo in the tagged queue, a solo can't 'unsolo' himself without doing what the group queue would be designed to make you do...group up.

[MischiefSC]

The queue split had a few issue. At the time you had to choose attack/defend and puggles feared the attack. Since unit members would only go to such a queue to farm bads there was no sane reason to drop tags to go do so. A pug/premade split will mostly just get all the pugs who like playing with groups to quit. I know I would have back when I pugged FW. I can not imagine a worse hell than FW with a team full of solo pugs.

The changes to group queue did NOT draw in tons of small group casuals - it just pushed out big units. I'm concerned that this change wouldn't bring in a ton of pugs - just reduce the total pugs playing.

[DarklightCA]

naterist, on 10 June 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

if your not in it for seal clubbing, then why wouldnt you support a split que which is suggested specifically to defend against seal clubbing?its asinins and makes people think you like the seal clubbing, if your in it for good games only theres gp.

like you said, its not about you.

You sound like one of those politically correct guys that call you a racist if you don't agree with all their concepts of poltical correctness.

There are more than one reason somebody would disagree with a split queue. Like the fact splitting a already limited population in half that is already struggling to find games in a timely manner would be a bit concerning.

All for a select few solo players struggling with the reality of the environment they CHOSE to enter.

[James Argent]

Umm...which is it, a split in half or a select few?

If it's half the population, they have just as much say in the matter as you do. If it's just a select few, how could you possibly miss them if they were split from your queue?