61 replies to this topic

[Arugela]

ERPPC currently is setup where any reasonable(Edit: max) PPC setup on an assault mech uses 4 PPCs... But by reducing the base damage to 10 instead of 15 makes it so you cannot effectively confront enemy mechs. Assaults on clan need to be able to have a chance to take down enemies of equal size let alone lesser sizes. This means 100 tone mechs.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4b0f2dbdaa704d1
Edit: SNV-3Improved <-Same thing better laser combo.

Edit: https://tarogato-mwo...4c-2518aee41690

This would be an ideal average PPC build... The limiter is time and the opposite is closing distance... To have versatility the mech needs to have a chance to take down enemies in decent time. That usually means 2 full shots(one instant and one after the CD) and some followups... this is because Clan have slow weapons and general bad maneuverability for high powered mechs.

Under the current system.4 PPC's do 40 damage... This means 3 shots to take down an enemy CT and apply proper structure damage. This means in a single heat bar you can only do 80 damage and spread. so only 80 toners or ST draining.(This is not viable for clan assaults. They cannot play like IS for strategic reasons) The 22 damage is for getting a good amount of structure.

For clan that means it takes 7 seconds to take down an assault or even a heavy. this is an entire mech category below it's own. This is insane for a clan mech of this type. It cannot defend itself and has no versatility which it is designed to have for this type of build. This means the only single proper long range laser weapon, which is what clan must have as a counter, is usless for TTK... The only thing clan have going for them to survive in the proper long range category. Clan allowing IS to pop back and forth is suicide. This has consequences to the game overall strategy. This is why clan lasers can get in positions with no long range counter to remove them.

Because Clan have high heat builds they need to be able to take down enemies in a short time then hide and gain steam back. This means this thing can only take down Heavies and lower in single short range engagements. And that means faster smaller heavies can close in much faster and kill it to easily. This is bad for longer battles like CW where this will matter more because it allows proper heat to damage ratios.

If it were 15, this proper build, would be able to do 60 damage. Instead of 7 seconds it fires the first off and can then fire again 3.5 seconds later and anywhere inbetween fire some lasers at the structure. This is how the clan survive and function. and their main weapon is nerfed. The clan to fight must thin numbers to compensate for heat. The natural counter to this is the heat cycle between shots. It's vital you kill not maim. You must be more accurate and get the kill. Sloppiness is not an option for clan mechs.

at 3.5 he can actually core the 120 armor and get up to 1/3 chance to kill. This means Clan cannot take on incoming large amounts of units reasonably(literally can never win against superior or even numbers) because their main long range weapon is doa. This means these mechs become unviable and Long range LOS support is gimped as well. This kills versatility in strategy and helps stagnate the game.

This is why everyone keeps setting up IS setups on Clan PPC mechs instead of Clan PPC builds... this would allow PPC on clan to fight like PPC on IS and have some ability to actualy brawl and fight back(Although at much higher heat and smaller margines for error). This is needed because this is how clan fight both short and long range. If they cannot brawl they do not have heat to take on incoming enemies and thus literally loose effectiveness in all categories(it disupts the cycle) and can never fight in a reasonable manner. hence they get swarmed easily or killed at range in a stalemate situation. You need to be able to act in all situations to some degree. And with hard energy limits and slower fire this is important.

7 seconds is an eternity to take down another assault mech. And killing heavies like they were equals is stupid and destructive to all potential strategy in the game. Especially on a vehicle designed around heat management as it's whole strategy. Spread does not work in this game and is hurting it wether people realize it or not. There would be much more play ability if this weapon did proper damage. And as clan has more limited weapons this sadly is more significant both to clan and general gameplay.. In fact it is part of the reason certain laser spamming has been an issue. This is no proper counter to IS Laser spam because this is the counter(Especially vs IS heavies/assaults). And this is not working as it should to balance it out. Because hiding behind hill would have to cede to grouping up and using more advanced tactics. When you are clan there are limited options and you can't gimp the few you have. It has more impact. In this case negative. Making This weapon alone do 15 damage would resolve the entire IS/Clan laser issue. Because there would be a proper counter to the lazy tactics this has allowed to occur. The game would be better for it if this were put back to it's proper value and people have to learn to work around it. Clan builds are properly all about damage to armor and TTK ratios. This gimps all clan PPC. The only proper clan counter to lasers. This has nullified most of the proper clan builds from doing what they should. This game plays like WoT now because of this..

Note: I bet most IS Laser vomit is Heavy based. This is working in the way it is because of the lack of the ability for clan to retaliate. This is the main reason for laser vomit. If this wasn't an issue hill popping would be more dangerous and you would have to rely on aggression and group dynamics more. Clan is designed around these weapons because unlike the IS they don't have weapon versatility/options, speed, and maneuver. The clan mechs that can move well are significantly weaker in build potential. This is on purpose. So they must play more straightforward. This is part of their balance. And gimping their one proper long range weapon is very damaging for real strategy.

Clans weakness is always supposed to be messing up shots/tighter margins for error.. IS is based around killing and slowly weakening enemies(ST/Arms). Clan is meant to take down CT and back and maybe legs. because there is less reiteration of shots. So it must go for kills more than not and be efficient in the TTK department. Is also have faster weapons attacks. These combos are why clan need strong attacks. And why they are based on getting faster kills. If they mess up the difference allows IS to rip them up. It seems tough but it's a good dynamic. This also is what forces IS out of solo mode so they have to do more than hide behind hills. Which because of mech sizes and the nature of hills is a solo task. Clans only counter, again, is killing then quicker and being accurate. This weapon not being able to achieve this in normal builds mean no counters and no options. Just sit and die. This is why these mechs are not in CW. They would be otherwise. and the game would get much more interesting. Clan must be accurate. IS has room for error and more area to fire on and more recovery from mistakes. And if IS can close in without Clan having proper fire power or hitting accuracy they win. This weapon damage removes even the possibility for proper category to category play. Hence no clan upper mechs in play.

To put it in a different light. Clan cannot retreat. When they engage they must win. IS can retreat and repeat more easily. Two different play styles. But with clan having less weapons it cannot have it's main long range weapon counter not working as it is designed to. It must be able to kill a 120 armored CT in one heat bar! It cannot wait 10 seconds to finish it off(Clan must have faster potential TTK than IS at all times). They are not built around the same weapon diversity and maneuverability as IS. So it works out more simply. Kill CT. Kill structure with remaining smaller heat weapons. But do so with much less room for error and bigger consequences if you mess up. The above build should be totally viable. And should be a mainstay in larger Clan Mech designs. Without this issue the game would be much more balanced.

Edited by Arugela, 31 May 2017 - 07:08 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

What about No

Pitty you for your wall of text but your logic is either fubar or you are an alt account of gyrok

[Jep Jorgensson]

As I understand it, in the lore, they are supposed to do 15 damage, no splash, and low crit chance. So why not do that?

[Arugela]

That is what I hope they will change it too.

I'm wondering though. Was the 10/2.5/2.5 introduced when the mechs all had lower armor? I know there was an armor increase at one point. Was the max assault armor for a 100tonner at one point only 80armor? That might explain it. Maybe they never carried it over or were avoiding bigger damage because of the IS XL issue at some point also...

Either way it should be 15 damage. If it has high crit I say make it low, like you said, or take away it's crit chance altogether... The pinpoint damage is vital to the weapons use. It's very important part for clan. That is the part that needs to be static.

Edited by Arugela, 30 May 2017 - 04:34 PM.

[Nightbird]

Let's see what happens when IS heavy PPC comes out, though that is 10 tons versus clan 6.

Edited by NlGHTBlRD, 31 May 2017 - 03:20 PM.

[Jep Jorgensson]

NlGHTBlRD, on 30 May 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

Let's see what happens when IS heavy gauss comes out, though that is 10 tons versus clan 6.

But still extremely devastating.

[Karl Streiger]

NlGHTBlRD, on 30 May 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

Let's see what happens when IS heavy gauss comes out, though that is 10 tons versus clan 6.

HPPC

Lore also says Clan pilots are genetical enhanced - and not Timmy and hia brother
Lore says also that clans be used to single combat not hiding somewhere and spam LRMs

You can't quote Lore (and we are not talking about lore only its representation in TT) when it underline your argument and ignore it other wise like it was done so often already.

[Arugela]

To be fair this lack of damage literally limits their ability to brawl in the above setup. So it could be why that can't happen. with a small bit more damage they might be able to do that more easily. 8)

In that mech setup you can either Fire three times in 7 seconds to hit 120. That is max heat. No follow up attacks. so ERPPC can't act properly as an armor striper. You can either fire two shots for 80 damage and then fire once with 22 damage and maybe get a small or medium laser off again. This means it can only act as backup.

This also means you need 3 mechs in general to quickly strip another assaults armor for incoming large assault swarms. Where as if you had to only use 2 you would have the veratility to spread them out without needing extra 90 tons mechs. It would help group composition tremendously.

If it were 15 damage you would do two 60 volleys and have the chance to strip the armor then fire either fire a fast 22-3 at pure structure or have to wait longer for 60. That is your heat max. This limits your options.

So Clan clan warfare has to overcommit to get useful PPC builds. This is why they are not in CW. At least not in the way they should be. Especially on a 90tonner... But as it's damage that we are talking about it scales to everything else.

The reason you need 3 is because of the time to fire(you can only get up to 4 off quickly.) and how that affects how many mechs you can hit in a given time. That combined with a 90 ton mech using JJ's this matters alot. This will scale with other mechs in several ways. Less on the agility side but more in the ability to help the group and need to overcommit inividual mechs to get a given affect(more important with clan mechs and strategy). This invalidates the weapon meaning your longest range weapon is not usable for what it is needed for. And low and behold their is a constant problem with countering long ranged lasers.... Go figure. this being 15 Damage would force the enemy to stop using simple strats and consider group composition and strategy more and make the game evolve. Until you hit the next issue.(That being IS xl, C-LPL, or similar. Maybe the new movements if they don't line up right.)

Ironically, if this type of change occurred LRM would not be mocked so much. It would regain or gain it's place as a useful weapon as you would want to use it. This is what should exist. This lead to then needing scouts more. These little adjustments should all make it more likely to occurs then lead to more experience and the evolution of those skills/strats being used. And it would slowly develop over time. BTW, once you have scouting you then have more knowledge on enemy movements. Which then leads to the issue with radar not mattering as much. And the natural cycle of interconnectedness in this game design should play out more and become more commonplace.

Edited by Arugela, 30 May 2017 - 11:11 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

4 ERPPCs on the Warhawk are totally fine - and of course you should not be effective in brawl with a long range weapons - otherwise you killing the AC20 and SRMs again.

[Arugela]

They aren't supposed to. UAC20's and SRMS do not counter PPC. LRM. teamwork, and other long ranged lasers do. This never got to occur because this weapon never had it's damage.

Clan damage is set. If you want to counter clan use teamwork. This type of mech is also designed around frontal assaults. most mechs carrying this weapon setup on clan also have this design. You have to understand the consequences of geometry. This and every mech like it get their arms ripped off fast. This removes their damage heavily. It is countered naturally. It just needs enemies not all getting in the direct front. This is the reason clan has limited individual chassis. Where as IS has many. It doesn't take much to start affecting this type of design but you have to think it out.

Any sort of angling, in increases in severity as you close in, makes it exponentially hard for a cone mech to fend off damage. It then looses arms(Which are more likely to gain damage, and it dies. That is the dynamic. It's just less obvious to most people from what I've seen. This mechs has to maintain distance or it dies. The brawling only works on one one. What a clan mech is good at. IS is good at teamwork. And cone mechs are weak to non frontal damage. this is because the shaking stops spreading the damage and it starts to concentrate more. That is the trick to countering these mechs.

Case in point. This is why a cone mech needs to kill fast. It then has to kill to reduce angles. and get the enemy in front. This is literally what is designed to happen. I do this constantly on my direwolf. anything that does not know this dies. Because I counter their advantage. It's just move people don't realize or understand this dynamic in game. So it needs the 120 damage. The brawling I'm refering to is not brawling in the way you are thinking. It is just the ability to TTK the CT in a certain timeframe and heat index.

BTW, you will see this cone dynamic in the IS cone mechs too. they always have more damage potential. Case in point the Annihilator. It's 2A version is 6 ballistics and 4 energy. The rest are energy or energy missile. Just like the supernova. This is related. It will have much higher damage setups and/or much more heat efficient with good damage. And it is designed to only take things on in front of it. But with good effect. It will relatively have to take out targets to maintain a lack of side angled damage also. So it has the means to do this. Although it being IS will have a different angle to their teamwork associated with it because of the different CD/Duration that make IS strategy different. This will give a slightly different feel. A little more forgiving but fun. If you know how to tank and keep stuff in front of you and how to compensate that is.

I don't think the warhawk is designed for 4 PPC. It' can't hold them conveniently and max out DHS.(Although i can't use the rest of the tonnage...)
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4dd34bac7832439 / http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d93db2eb2cae853
I'm under the impression, regardless of popular opinion, that these convenient builds are supposed to be optimal... At least strategically. But the stuff not right in the game is not making them line up. so everyone is constantly compensating. This would simplify the game and make it more based on the strategy side that never happens in the game currently. You notice this as what I've said already potentially points out part of why LRM is not common and integral in a hard strategic sense. And the lack of accompanying utility.

Edited by Arugela, 30 May 2017 - 11:56 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

First of all when you show a Quad ERPPC build - and somebody refering to lore - make your heatsinks so that they could carry the burden of 4 ERPPCs:
SNV-3

the second thing I have problems in understanding your statement of cone mechs and team play.

I think this proposal goes hand in hand with 8 vs 12 or 10vs12 suggestions - making ClanTech better.

This would not work with the game we have - asymmetrical combat size can only work when you also have asymetrical combat style - for example consider kill shots that are no solo kills, and every assist that is not a KMDD as a violation of the code of combat for Clans and tax them with negative C-Bills.

In this case you have team play on one side and imba mechs on the other.

[Arugela]

I think the problem is it was designed to have Asymmetric numbers.. The original balance may have oriented as this, combined with limiting the game with hardpoints, ties it intimately to one on one combat and other dynamics each mech have. I think they ended up compensating for this and things like IS xl and it makes too many holes in the strategy. But, yea, that could easily be the case. The game should flow as to the use of all the different weapons they did let us have. I think that is the original intent of the hard point discussion and things like it.

I keep putting up stuff about dropping boxes or NPC mechs that don't do anything on clan side an making 8 vs 12 QP. I think they said The problem was the engine. But does the engine only stop them from making asymmetric max values as opposed to using symmetric values and fording usable players like in that idea. If they had to they could make fake accounts and make them drop and sit there and be automated to do nothing to fill space.

My design can carry 4ppcs. Those extra are uneeded unless I'm calculating it wrong.

NVM, I see the problem. My build is assuming max heat skills from the tree! 8) 10.5% heat reduction to weapons, 12% or so CD, 15% heat cap, and 10% dissipation value.

https://tarogato-mwo...4c-2518aee41690

Edited by Arugela, 31 May 2017 - 12:09 AM.

[Kaptain]

OP TLDR. "I don't know if you have been keeping up with current events but (IS) just got their asses kicked pal" Clans do not need a buff.

NlGHTBlRD, on 30 May 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

Let's see what happens when IS heavy gauss comes out, though that is 10 tons versus clan 6.

Heavy Guass is 18 tons and 11 slots... (so only standard engines can mount it and only is a ST)

Perhaps you meant to say "Heavy PPC"? Yeah that is still 10 tons and and 4 slots so twice as big and nearly double the weight.

I think the clan ERPPC is just fine.

Edited by Kaptain, 31 May 2017 - 12:12 AM.

[Kaptain]

Jep Jorgensson, on 30 May 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

As I understand it, in the lore, they are supposed to do 15 damage, no splash, and low crit chance. So why not do that?

Because it weighs 6 tons and takes up 2 slots and unlike in "Lore" 2D6 are not determining hit location.

[Arugela]

And I was wrong in my calculations. You can fire only two volleys before max heat... So you can never get past 80 damage so other assaults are off limits. It's worse than I'm describing.

It does not nor can it have the option of waiting to do a third volley after 3 seconds.

So, Clan PPC can at max(without crazy builds) pop two volleys of 40. this means it's pointless to use a 90 tone mech with JJ to help in a realistic way. It absolutely needs the 15 damage.

Current sequence:

1. JJ do 40 damage 50 heat. 0 seconds
2. JJ do 40 damage 50 heat. 3.571 seconds 80 damage. (max heat) <- Note: Not the 120 of another potential assault.
3. wait another 10 seconds!!! attack for 40 to finally strip armor then wait longer to push other damage in which will take similar time.

15+ seconds easily to kill another of it's own category at best case scenario!

This is completely unbalanced.

Proper sequence:

1. JJ do 60 damage 50 heat. 0 seconds
2. JJ do 60 damage 50 heat. 3.571 seconds 120 damage. (max heat) <- Note: The 120 of another potential assault.
3. wait 2 seconds to start taking down structure. or have an ally help. <- This is reasonable for solo and teamwork.

This is 5-7+ seconds to have a chance. That 5 damage difference halves the best possible outcome. This does not take into account misses or inaccuracies.

The mech must have the ability to take on the max target. Particularly for range weapon because of the strategic role it plays. Clan is designed solely on this principle.

This is why lasers rule. Because Clan don't have their PPC/long range counters. It is completely unbalanced. An assault should never be equal damage wise to a category below it. Not on clan side at this heat category. This is is absurd!

With game setup and even max potential because of crit slot limits, but especially because of set hardpoints Clan setups like this absolutely have important strategic significance. This is why there are less Clan mechs overall to choose from. It's to control the potential. And this is a needed combo. Max LOS long range counter at Assault level CT level damage. And no other clan mech can provide an equivalent alternative because the weapon damage determines this. The game has been playing out without major weapon categories functioning properly... The Is counter is maneuverability and other aspects of their mechs. They can disengage or pull of other things. The clan are straightforward. They are reliant on their damage like this.

Lasers cannot even make up for this as they are required to stay on target. It's important to have this sort of weapon available. think of the difference to team work in CW. YOu need to core the enemy to stop a rush. But you also have resources split up. Think of the max potential with the two weapon differences and what options it leaves open or takes away.

Clan only have this combo on big slow mechs for a reason. And ones generally with frontal nose tanking. This helps leave strats for IS to take them on. Again, why the mechs are limited and controlled Clan side. The 120 damage potential already has its counters. Unless the lack of XL is that important to the issue.

Normally this sort of build forces Clan to attack CT. Because you cannot afford in a real push to waist time with ST. Unlike IS that can and does outmaneuver and lots of other strategies. Clan must play a straightforward strategy culling their enemies and taking them on fairly directly and very efficiently. The XL engine could be an issue because it stop certain higher damage setups from existing or being to fragile on IS side... Maybe this is part of the reason. But that leaves this can of worms open to the clan. And, I think, is why the entire current problems exist. Anti clan issues are related to the effects of each individual hit. IS can spam more or repeat their strats.. They aren't as effected. Though ST kills against IS might matter If they need XL setups to bring appropriate Damge for thier Damage/heat/CD. But lthat eaves the whole 12 Assaults in CW an issue and with no counter(notice what people do and have done since the start of CW.). so the reducing damage was not the correct answer. They needed to keep damage as it's vital to the potential of Clan strategy and tactics and fix the other issues. Like reducing the odds of ST killing an IS mech with XL...

It may be fine as far as 12v12. although it may not. But fixing that sort of thing is needed or the game will never play out the way it was designed to originally. The temp fixes in the game now are stopping the game from being what it should be. And I think it can with relatively few changes...

I don't think any other weapon setup has a negative heat to damage ration. And this being clan this is the entirety of balance. But not even reducing heat would work in this case. As the TTK/Damage is not enough for dealing with enemy movements or rushes... Because it would again force too many mechs in one space(no matter the weight category) to be assembled to deal with incoming attacks. The only way to balance this is 15 damage. And exactly 15 Damage. No less. Even at 15 Damage it still needs to rely on an ally or wait to gain heat... PPC's must be able to Core at the max of their category for a clan mech like this because, at minimum, CW allows 12 100 tonners to charge. The rest of the issues go with this damage amount and are needed for the mechs individual performance. I've used this setup alot. I can tell you it does not have the ability to perform with PPC's properly even though it's designed for it and needs to be able to. Especially when you throw in the JJ's considerations.

Edited by Arugela, 31 May 2017 - 01:08 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

4 cERPPCs can do 40 pinpoint front loaded damage at 810m for 24 tons, please point me to an IS weapons combo which is equal or superior PPFLD at 810m, then we can talk about the cERPPC needing improvement.

I agree, 7 seconds is a long time to take down an assault, if you want to do it faster take a fast Light Mech with lasers and machne guns, get behind the target and kill it in 3-7 seconds depending on how lucky you get with crits, or take the JR7-IIC with 6 SRM6 and rip them apart with 72 point alphas to the back. no heavy or assualt Mech firing against front armor has any buissiness killing an assualt in less than 10 seconds, especialy not while safe at 800m, the Light getting behind Mechs with no significant rear armor is taking a huge risk why should a fire support Mech taking little or no risk get the same rewards?

[Karl Streiger]

Ever tried to disengage in an Atlas? No? Thought so.
You disengage with speed not twist and turn ratings - and speed is the Clan Thing too.

You point something out however - the lacking heat system. Usually the tons of heatsinks (20tons for the SVN) don't have the impact of the 10 you got for free.
So saving tonnage for speed is a good option - the reason for the good ERPPC Cicadas in the past. No heatsinks but excellent speed.

Rogue Jedi, on 31 May 2017 - 12:47 AM, said:

4 cERPPCs can do 40 pinpoint front loaded damage at 810m for 24 tons, please point me to an IS weapons combo which is equal or superior PPFLD at 810m, then we can talk about the cERPPC needing improvement.

923m - although you can have 923m with IS ERPPCs too maybe more with skills.... but the issue with IsERPPCs is heat. Its hard to stuff more then 10 heatsinks in any IS Mech. (its possible that there is a range skill point missing)

but with 30dhs and maxed out cool run skills you dissipate heat at a superb rate.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 31 May 2017 - 12:51 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

Karl Streiger, on 31 May 2017 - 12:50 AM, said:

923m - although you can have 923m with IS ERPPCs too maybe more with skills.... but the issue with IsERPPCs is heat. Its hard to stuff more then 10 heatsinks in any IS Mech. (its possible that there is a range skill point missing)

but with 30dhs and maxed out cool run skills you dissipate heat at a superb rate.

yes, IS ERPPCs can do the same damage at the same range, slightly cooler (for the same number of DHS), but at the cost of another 4 tons, I should have, and (incorrectly) thaught I had, also asked for same tonage.
sorry

[Karl Streiger]

Rogue Jedi, on 31 May 2017 - 12:54 AM, said:

yes, IS ERPPCs can do the same damage at the same range, slightly cooler (for the same number of DHS), but at the cost of another 4 tons, I should have, and (incorrectly) thaught I had, also asked for same tonage.
sorry

np

I never even considered to run 4 ERPPCs on any IS mech.....time to ckeck some math don't you think?
This might be the best option that does not die from ST Death:
BNC-3M

Because of the 4t more weight I did take the Banshee - with good quirks.

The SNV is clearly the better build (more heat sinks, and better field of fire)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 31 May 2017 - 01:02 AM.

[Arugela]

Rogue Jedi, on 31 May 2017 - 12:47 AM, said:

4 cERPPCs can do 40 pinpoint front loaded damage at 810m for 24 tons, please point me to an IS weapons combo which is equal or superior PPFLD at 810m, then we can talk about the cERPPC needing improvement.

I agree, 7 seconds is a long time to take down an assault, if you want to do it faster take a fast Light Mech with lasers and machne guns, get behind the target and kill it in 3-7 seconds depending on how lucky you get with crits, or take the JR7-IIC with 6 SRM6 and rip them apart with 72 point alphas to the back. no heavy or assualt Mech firing against front armor has any buissiness killing an assualt in less than 10 seconds, especialy not while safe at 800m, the Light getting behind Mechs with no significant rear armor is taking a huge risk why should a fire support Mech taking little or no risk get the same rewards?

That is the problem. It's 15+ seconds currently. It needs to be 7 seconds to be viable. It would be 7+ seconds minimum if it were 15 damage.

And clan is more about the limits of confined volleys than other things. It natrually matters it can only two volleys per jj, can do two of those before overheating, and this is the correct damage amount. the damage amount is currently missing. If you put this setup on an assault it needs to take down bigger targets with pure PPC combos. This stops all potential of incoming attacks without unreasonable time because of waint 10 seconds to get more attacks(and using the small lasers does not change this.) this affects all aspects of the mechs use. It cannot help take down incoming groups or even potentially. It makes a literal waist of tonnage for the mech. And on a strategically important asset.

And you should be able to do this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...56164f3a6d8fdcc
But I'm assuming it's not built for it idealing in other ways.

This is on the other hand: (30.5% off PPC heat cost! 20.5% off other lasers or pulse lasers.)


AWS-8Q
AWS-8Q / 2
https://tarogato-mwo...4c-2111e8840452
https://tarogato-mwo...4c-31cd4a2cf6b9

(Swap out PPC for ERPPC. Although not recommended. Maybe..)

Note: The second mech with PL's can fire exactly 60 damage in 3.57 seconds with ERPPC's. This is half of the clan.This is normally the case from what I've seen. Or if you keep the normal PPC's, which fit the build better, you can do 3 volleys of PPC for 120 damage in 7 seconds. Same damage takes longer. and in this case lower range... Although, you may need a buddy to help take down structure. This is why I was thinking Clan could do 3 volleys. I was working on this build. Clan should be doing 2 volleys in 7 seconds with 120 to match this. IS simply has more varied combos. Although, the IS XL's should probably not have the weaknesses they do on IS side. This could be one of the issues.

BTW, with the quirks those LPL+MPL's can fire for days.

Edit: I think the IS's key is in weapon combos with PPC. Because that is where they shine! Besides other advantages.

As it appears they gave the IS equal damage to what I proposed but in PPC form instead of ERPPC. this means IS must use team work to close the gap or some other strategy. But they have the damage well in hand. It is only fair Clan also have this option. It was supposed to to start with.

Separately, I think one reason the 12v12 might not be an issue with an increased 15 damage for C-ERPPC is that this quirk system may naturally cover it on IS side. If they naturally already balanced enough from what actually is taken from rulebooks. It might be that simple. But, yea it would probably balance out better if it's asymmetric!

Comparison:(Each against 100 tone with 120 CT and 62 structure. AKA no bonuses.) (All values assume perfect accuracy!)

SNV-3: At 15 damage https://tarogato-mwo...4c-2518aee41690
1. 60 damage 50 heat. 0 seconds
2. 60 damage 50 heat. 3.571 seconds 120 damage. (max heat)
3. Build up heat to take down Structure or get a buddy to help. 13.575 heatTakes 2.9 seconds for each 22 damage.

(first value is cored, second first crit chance, third 0 HP)
TTK: 3.571-6.471-12.217 seconds! (Solo and close range!)
TTK: 3.571-8.99-17.121 seconds! (ranged)

Edit: SNV-3Improved : At 15 damage https://tarogato-mwo...4c-2518aee41690 <-Same thing better laser combo.
1. 60 damage 50 heat. 0 seconds
2. 60 damage 50 heat. 3.571 seconds 120 damage. (max heat)
3. Build up heat to take down Structure or get a buddy to help. 10.86 heat takes 2.323 seconds for each 20 damage.

(first value is cored, second first crit chance, third 0 HP)
TTK: 3.571-5.895-12.864 seconds! (Solo and close range!)
TTK: 3.571-8.99-17.121 seconds! (ranged)

AWS-8Q/ 2: https://tarogato-mwo...4c-2111e8840452: https://tarogato-mwo...4c-31cd4a2cf6b9
1. 40 damage 29.12 heat. 0 seconds
2. 40 damage 29.12 heat. 3.571 seconds 80 damage.
3. 40 damage 29.12 heat. 7.142 seconds 120 damage. (max heat)
4. Build up heat to take down Structure or get a buddy to help. 12.45 heat takes 3.83 seconds for each 23 damage.

(first value is cored, second first crit chance, third 0 HP)
TTK: 7.142-10.972-18.63 seconds! (Solo and close range!)
TTK: 7.142-11.706-23.386 seconds! (ranged)

These two examples are comparable.

IS takes longer, but the reality is that the clan mech will be more affected by ST and other strategies. The IS mechs damage can be made to go farther. It will be more versatile. Especially when considering group dynamics.

Current damage:

SNV-3: At 10 damage https://tarogato-mwo...4c-2518aee41690
1. 40 damage 50 heat. 0 seconds
2. 40 damage 50 heat. 3.571 seconds 80 damage. (max heat)
3. Take 10.84 seconds to get heat.
4. 40 Damage 50 heat. 14.411 seconds 120 damage
53. Build up heat to take down Structure or get a buddy to help. 13.575 heat takes 2.9 seconds for each 22 damage.

(first value is cored, second first crit chance, third 0 HP)
TTK: 14.411-17.311-23.11 seconds! (Solo and close range!)
TTK: 14.411-19.83-27.96 seconds! (ranged)

Edit: SNV-3Improved : At 15 damage https://tarogato-mwo...4c-2518aee41690 <-Same thing better laser combo.
1. 40 damage 50 heat. 0 seconds
2. 40 damage 50 heat. 3.571 seconds 80 damage. (max heat)
3. Take 10.84 seconds to get heat.
4. 40 Damage 50 heat. 14.411 seconds 120 damage
3. Build up heat to take down Structure or get a buddy to help. 10.86 heat takes 2.323 seconds for each 20 damage.

(first value is cored, second first crit chance, third 0 HP)
TTK: 14.411-16.734-23.703 seconds! (Solo and close range!)
TTK: 14.411-19.83-27.96 seconds! (ranged)

This is rediculous for Clan. It makes it useless practically.

Anything short of 15 damage puts the mech back into the situation of having to wait 10 seconds. So 15 is the minimal viable damage for Clan ERPPC. Not to mention an attrocious 14 seconds to core. Twice that of IS.

I think the issue is the waiting on heat and the group TTK time. which is the cored time basically. This would assume the SNV has to JJ to reduce Core in a timely manner for the next guy to attack. That is another 62 damage afterwords. Plus how many mechs you must concentrate to accomplish a task among other issues.

Edited by Arugela, 31 May 2017 - 09:32 PM.