86 replies to this topic

[Noth]

Grayson Ward, on 24 July 2012 - 04:31 AM, said:

Oh stop. If there is a variant of a mech that needs so much cbills for refit that only real money can hold it and it is superior in firepower,
that IS pay2win.

And that will not be in the game so why worry, why start throwing around pay to win? They have flat out said cbill income will be able to cover your expenses no matter the mech you use. Further such a thing is common sense, which baffles me why you would think otherwise.

Edited by Noth, 24 July 2012 - 04:40 AM.

[Xune]

No. Its there for a reason. If you cant figur it out i pitty you

[Grayson Ward]

Noth, on 24 July 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

And that will not be in the game so why worry, why start throwing around pay to win? They have flat out said cbill income will be able to cover your expenses no matter the mech you use. Further such a thing is common sense, which baffles me why you would think otherwise.

The whole discussion here is about pay cbills for your needed ammo.How much it cost is to be seen.
And they only said your mech will be repaired a bit (around 25%) so you can play further. Not that anyone with only 25% repair will stand long in a match, but you can play.
Could you link the source where they said cbill income will always cover no matter the mech? Never saw anything like this.

[Noth]

Grayson Ward, on 24 July 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

The whole discussion here is about pay cbills for your needed ammo.How much it cost is to be seen.
And they only said your mech will be repaired a bit (around 25%) so you can play further. Not that anyone with only 25% repair will stand long in a match, but you can play.
Could you link the source where they said cbill income will always cover no matter the mech? Never saw anything like this.

Nope don't have the source. I don't book mark everything that devs say. It's common sense to have earning from a match cover basic repairs and ammo refills. There are exception such as if you afk, or team kill. The idea is to not halt the players progress. There's a link in one of the stickies that goes to an episode of "Extra Credit" that outlines their goal with the free to play system.

[Bishop Steiner]

Grayson Ward, on 24 July 2012 - 04:31 AM, said:

Oh stop. If there is a variant of a mech that needs so much cbills for refit that only real money can hold it and it is superior in firepower,
that IS pay2win.

At what point was Pay2Win ever part of the conversation, when the Devs have been specific that there will be NO pay2win here? So unless you consider having to use hard earned C-bills in game as "pay2win" your argument really is moot... unless you think that somehow its wrong for Mechwarriors who fight hard and smart and win to earn more c-bills than ones who plan poorly?

*shakes head*

okey dokey then.

[Bishop Steiner]

Noth, on 24 July 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

Nope don't have the source. I don't book mark everything that devs say. It's common sense to have earning from a match cover basic repairs and ammo refills. There are exception such as if you afk, or team kill. The idea is to not halt the players progress. There's a link in one of the stickies that goes to an episode of "Extra Credit" that outlines their goal with the free to play system.

Even if they were to only "guarantee" a 25% capacity mech.... that is the users fault and problem to overcome... I have certainly never seen it posted anywhere that "hey, you sucked on that last mission and wasted cbills before it like no tomorrow... so since you can't afford to fix your mech, just jot down your credit card # for our shiny new "Fix-a-Mech" pay2win scheme! You thought only the New York Yankees could pay for a totally overboard advantage to compensate for their inability to build success through actual talent?!!?!?!"

Making the whole Pay-2-Win thing moot. OK, so they don't hold your hand if you are a consistently bad player, or dumb with your c-bills. Whose fault would that be? Since whatever the decision is will affect ALL players the same, your argument makes zero sense.

[Xemmi]

darkenderlord, on 22 July 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

we buy the gun and in almost any other mmorpg amo is free why not here and i now world of tanks amo must be bought but thats way diferent = free = pay so post those smiliyes

This is about STRATEGY! Not grinding mobs for l33t t6 gear nub!

[Strikhedonia]

Victor009, on 24 July 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

This is about STRATEGY! Not grinding mobs for l33t t6 gear nub!

Wut u meen ther no epics?!?!!1 HAX!

It hurt my brain to type that.

[Ouster]

peer, on 22 July 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

* Joe Mechwarrior has an enemy mech coming right at him. It's within range of his AC/10, but Joe knows he hasn't got much money left after purchasing his new mech and fears he won't have enough to both repair and restock ammo. He fires his lasers instead.

This isn't the correct decision. The correct decision is uses the AC/10 and the laser as long as you have the heat to spare. The faster you kill your enemy or disable them mean less damage you have to take or absorb. The damage repair costs will be more than likely the dominate factor of you final costs. I don’t think I have ever seen a mech type game charge you more in post game costs from ammunition then for damage repair. If you total your mech that going to cost way more than the ammunition. Also remember the game probably won’t pay you as much if you lose so make sure your team wins above all else.

Edited by Ouster, 25 July 2012 - 11:05 PM.

[belakor502]

To all the people that want unlimited and/or free ammo. Play Metro2033 and then tell us how the ammo policy changed your style of play and gameplay experience. In Metro you have to pay for ammo or find it in dead bodies. However the "money" is actually just some high quality ammo you can find or get, but never earn. If you run around wildly shooting in metro you will soon find yourself fighting with the knife or start again where you had ammo. You will soon learn to aim and shoot in small bursts, and if possible sneak past the enemy. I sneaked trough the whole Frontline mission for about half an hour without shooting once. I defused light bulbs to not get detected by enemys and managed to sneak past over 100 soldiers.

Now you would probably say that is not fun, its more fun to simply berserk trough the enemy lines but dont you think there are already enough games like that?

[Friend Fox]

Come on guys, this is getting messy. Lets keep this civil and have a nice conversation/friendly debate rather than flaming.

I think you guys are blowing this all WAY out of proportion. After a match you will probably pay a minuscule amount of the C-bills you earned that match on ammo along with equipment repairs. I really doubt it is going to be a big deal. You most likely click a button, lose 0.1-1% of your current bank, and you're rearmed for the next game.

I could explain how the system encourages smarter use of ballistic weapons and rewards marksmanship, but you have shown you do not want to hear that. I could also go through how it prevents idiotic behavior, but you don't want to hear that either.

The bottom line is, just like how repairs reward smart defensive play, ammunition expenses reward smart offensive play.

I really don't see what is so hard to recognize about this. It nudges players towards accuracy over spray and pray (which is so prevalent these days in games), and cuts down on the guy running in circles at spawn filling the ground with lead. Sorry if these do not qualify as gameplay improvements, but from what I see I will pleased with it.

Now I also have some ideas about (IMO) really cool things they could do with this feature once community warfare is implemented, but I like to try and keep things short so I'll forgo posting on it for now.

Edited by Highlander IIC, 25 July 2012 - 12:49 PM.

[Steel Talon]

Quote

Wrong, WoT has a great economy. I always earn credits after matches. Whereas my ragebot friend who shoots at everything and ragequits when he's below 50% looses cash all the time... if you want free ammo play CoD.. it's free all day

With T10 its simply not possible
When good play with balistic will earn less than good play with energy, normal matches will turn into flashing lasers & ppcs
Im not for free ammo, but it must pay out its expense when u hit most shots

Major expense should be repairs, that everyone must pay

[Romulus Stahl]

From 'Cool Hand Luke' - " What we have here is a failure to communicate"
Interesting thread, a first time poster generates 4 pages of folks talking past each other.
While both sides definitely agree on subjects, they seemingly can't focus on other points to work them out.

Can we agree that 'world persistence' will add to the longevity of the game? If not there is nothing to discuss.
If the game doesn't have 'world persistence' I personally don't see the game lasting. It will just be death match after death match, when the next f2p game of the month comes out folks will move on.
If you are interested in a longer playing campaign supply lines become a factor, one method of dealing with them could be buying ammo, the other method could be simply not having ammo.

@Peer - how do propose to deal with supply lines?

As to a game for all types of players, at this time we have been told there are 2 types of matches, Deathmatch and Dropship, Dropship may be the 'persistent world' where players do have to plan, they may have to buy ammo, deal with supply lines, etc. Deathmatch may be the easy casual gamer I don't have to deal with it mode of the game. At some point the casual players may want to venture into the 'I have to plan more area', if they don't want to there is no need, it's a matter of preference.

As to Mechs being totally destroyed, and having to buy a new one. Unless a car in the junk yard has be run through the grinder or compressed, they can typically be rebuilt, It is a matter of repairs and laying out the cash. Many a wreak has been pulled from the junk yard and brought back to life, it shouldn't be any different with a Mech, repairs are repairs, salvage is salvage, unless you have nothing left to work from you really should not have a start from scratch.

Edited by Romulus Stahl, 26 July 2012 - 03:53 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Personally, I would like to see both repairs and re-arming be non-automated processes.

That is, if one only has "X" c-bills and it would take more than that amount to fully re-arm and/or repair, I would like to be able to pick-and-choose what (if anything) gets repaired and/or which (if any) weapons get re-armed (e.g. restocking on AC shells rather than LRMs, or vice versa... or actively choosing to not re-arm either).

Also, of potential interest to the discussion are these tidbits from the "After Hours" Q&A (featuring Paul) on July 11:

Quote

[15:15] <EmperorMyrf> Are the prices for mechs/parts 1:1 with the tabletop values? Or is that still being played with?
[15:16] <[PGI]Paul_Inouye> EmperorMyrf: there is no reason to stay with 1:1 pricing with table top.. they will vary

[15:19] <MechaDraco> Paul I dont suppose you could answer my question when it comes to the after battle free repairs, we know that they are supposed to be battle ready, which means they can be used again in another battle, but jsut how
much, is battle ready?
[15:19] <FoxD> Paul's only friend is a bottle of whiskey.
[15:19] <[PGI]Paul_Inouye> MechaDraco: about 25% repaired

[15:21] <Drakeblade> Paul is their somethin that is goingto keep you from joining a game with full of people that didnt repair because we both know that if their is no limit it can and will happen.
[15:21] <Rhiawhyn_Zerinth> Or is it just matchmaking?
[15:22] <[PGI]Paul_Inouye> To All Inquiring: There is no way that you will go too many rounds without money to repair... you will have to see what happens on release... Beta players a bit sooner.

(The Google-fu is strong with me... )

So, we do know that (as of approximately one fortnight ago) the Devs are 1.) considering not necessarily going with the TT's pricing for 'Mechs/weapons/equipment/etc, 2.) planning on a free restoration to up to only 25% functionality for defeated 'Mechs, and 3.) planning on the per-match payout to be such that "there is no way that you will go too many rounds without money to repair".
(Arguably, "re-arm" might be included under "repair" in this context...)

Your thoughts?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 26 July 2012 - 04:51 AM.

[victorvndoom]

would put that option in a test mode or something , unlimited online is a bit cheating ?

[SuomiWarder]

Look at it this way. You get "free" C-bills given to you by the game (as baseHouse pay, per match, or whatever). Thus when you use those C-bills to replenish missiles and ammo fired, it is "free" as the C-Bills were free.

You will not have to spend real money to reload your weapons.

Edited by SuomiWarder, 26 July 2012 - 06:08 PM.

[Saint Valhalla]

i would love to see a "training mode" match option with unlimited ammo. As long as it doesn't affect the meta game.

[Seabear]

I want to see a campaign mode where resources are limited as is resupply over a series of connected battles. such a system would quickly remove those who cannot think ahead or who charge into battle without considering the consequences.

[Deceptor]

I don't think it's about how much it costs, the fact is if you are in an all-out semi-apocalyptic battle to the death that screams past the 5 minute mark, you're gonna be making sure you don't RUN OUT right before you deal that last satisfying death blow, and get to dance around as a decoy for whatever is left of the fight. MAKE THOSE SHOTS COUNT MECHWARRIORS!

[Tribesmen]

As long as there is no gold ammo (WOT) or equivalent for real money to give an advantage. I am ok with c-bills

for basic ammo like AC5 or something.