73 replies to this topic

[maxdest]

NOTE: Edited 09/06 to clarify the proposition in better words.

We all know fp split queues cannot normally be split into groups and pug, due to low population.

To counter this, add a filtered queue based on population e.g.

• When a 12 man premade queues the matchmaker tries to place it against another 12 man.
  
• If no 12 man premade then they are placed against a 12 man made of smaller groups with maybe some solo fillers.
  
• As a last resort the 12 man premade is placed against solos.

The whole process would be throttled to add only a small amount to wait times in high population periods.

This would mean more groups play vs groups and more pug vs pug , which is a better match for all.

The hope would be with a the next fp event, enough players would participate to allow the system to work well, and therefore help pug stick around and keep the pop higher. As those pug learn they migrate towards groups.

Too low pop issues:
The MM is throttled , so that at worst in high pop times only a short period is added to searching time before restrictions are released. In low pop times the MM would be like now, in high pop times much better.

Sych Drops issues:
To combat synch drops then in events the unit ladders would be split into small and large group rewards, with the main 'unit' rewards requiring larger groups. Possibly this could also be rolled out to normal play, with merc tier points / match earnings having an increased rate when a large group drops against a large group.

Edited by maxdest, 08 June 2017 - 03:55 PM.

[Emeraudes]

maxdest, on 29 May 2017 - 03:41 AM, said:

We all know fp split queues cannot normally be split into groups and pug, due to low population.

To counter this, add a new split queue split to split into two pots based on population:
- pug and small groups
- large groups

E.g less than 240 people would be as now ( no split )
240+ would begin to split queues with smaller groups filling the pug queue

The hope would be with a the next fp event, enough players would participate to allow the system to work, and therefore help pug stick around and keep the pop higher. At the same time, because of the throttling at low pop times fp matches would still run.

Hmmm what would be your response if players synch dropped on the same planet? Cause I can see that happening if the large group queue is less populated than they can accept. Or if the competition is basically between 2 sets of groups.

[TWIAFU]

maxdest, on 29 May 2017 - 03:41 AM, said:

We all know fp split queues cannot normally be split into groups and pug, due to low population.

To counter this, add a new split queue split to split into two pots based on population:
- pug and small groups
- large groups

E.g less than 240 people would be as now ( no split )
240+ would begin to split queues with smaller groups filling the pug queue

The hope would be with a the next fp event, enough players would participate to allow the system to work, and therefore help pug stick around and keep the pop higher. At the same time, because of the throttling at low pop times fp matches would still run.

FW already does that, mostly.

First is 12man vs 12man. If no opposing 12man, then it is on to small groups and cannon fodder to fill. If no small groups then they face all cannon fodder. Since our last PGI provided metric shows 12man premade is less than 1% of the whole group population, 99 out of 100 your facing small groups or cannon fodder. Make a 12man and work as a team to win.

The team that plays as a team wins over the side that plays QP with respwan.

[DarklightCA]

What you are suggesting is literally what everybody is playing currently. There are only a select few units capable of forming actual 12 man's to play Faction Play. The majority of the groups are minimal at best.

What you will get is an empty "large group queue" because nobody really will be capable of filling it with everybody else filling the pug and small group queue and the large groups splitting into smaller groups to get games.

[Agent1190]

They tried the split queues and it failed HORRIBLY. All the smart players started one-man units so they could group up with established units and drop with them, because they wanted to WIN.

Here's the solutions to dropping solo - FIND A GROUP OF PLAYERS DROPPING FW AND GROUP UP WITH THEM. You all keep making these threads with stupid fixes and stupid ideas when the easiest fix is right in front of your face.

[Commander A9]

This is already being done...when the lobby creation system finds 12 people, regardless of wherever they come from, you have yourself a match.

What you're ACTUALLY hinting towards is unit-tagged players able to cue up and only fight only unit-tagged players, and non-tagged will fight non-tagged.

They tried this once before-it was rolled back in 24 hours, if not less.

Still, let's say they do implement yourself...and a group of 10 or 12 will ONLY get a lobby if there's another group of 10 or 12 ready to play.

Which means your wait times skyrocket when the system tries to separate people and pick and choose who fights where instead of having people literally line up in order of ready-status.

No thank you.

[maxdest]

I have played FP as a PUG since the first phase.Personally I enjoy FP, whomever I play against/with. On the other hand don't like waiting 10+ minutes of searching.

FP has a huge population problem , and doesn't seem able to retain players even after events that strongly promote the mode (recent Tuk 3 was probably the best event rewards ever!). We can talk gameplay changes and other things, but as a PUG you know what I heard most during the event?

Constant whining about the MM placing groups against PUGs, and it wasn't uncommon for one or more players to DC when they saw a large unit on the other side.

I don't know how the MM works, but during the event it most definatly was dropping full PUG against 9+ sized organised groups... possibly due to an imbalance of number of large groups playing at the same time on different sides. To increase and sustain players the matchmaker needs to change in some way (groups or maybe W/L ratio matching).

[maxdest]

Commander A9, on 29 May 2017 - 11:22 AM, said:

What you're ACTUALLY hinting towards is unit-tagged players able to cue up and only fight only unit-tagged players, and non-tagged will fight non-tagged.

They tried this once before-it was rolled back in 24 hours, if not less.

/snip

Yes, I know , I played this and it was pants. No one wants longer waits, and the unit tag thing was just odd anyhow (I considered making a one man unit).

That is why the idea throttles the queue split (just like in QP the MM throttles the checks on teir based on population). What you do is impliment some sort of matchmaking , so that when pop is high (in event) it actually results in:

• Better matches for the groups (less skittles)
  
• Better matches for the pug (less spawn camps).

In turn this hopfully means more player retention outside of events and lower waits for all.

Edited by maxdest, 29 May 2017 - 11:38 AM.

[maxdest]

Emeraudes, on 29 May 2017 - 04:12 AM, said:

Hmmm what would be your response if players synch dropped on the same planet? Cause I can see that happening if the large group queue is less populated than they can accept. Or if the competition is basically between 2 sets of groups.

Well I think there should be a better way for mercs to change contracts to prevent imbalances, but at the end of the day you cant stop synch dropping. You could definately count victories in the 'small group' queue in any events seperatly than the large group queue with different rewards / ladders.

[50 50]

For the big events where there is a huge influx of players, this is a good idea.

However, the unit tagged queue and not tagged queue was a weird approach.
Just make it the same as quick play with group or solo.
The players in units will likely group with their unit members and therefore drop in group queue anyway.
But if no-one else in your unit is on, why restrict the players from dropping solo?

This unit tag/non-tagged approach was tried but just seemed a strange way to approach it when we have already proved in quick play that solo queue and group queue works pretty well and there is nothing stopping any player from doing the LFG thing or jumping on teamspeak and finding some groups to join.

[Kalleballe]

The previous attempt at splitting queues was flawed and could never have worked, so not a valid argument.
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5763695

There might be a matchmaker, unfortunately pup vs pug matching is last priority.

How about a checkbox "solo only, might result in longer wait times."

Sync dropping can be avoided by not allowing the same ppl to be matched together more than once.

[Emeraudes]

maxdest, on 29 May 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

Well I think there should be a better way for mercs to change contracts to prevent imbalances, but at the end of the day you cant stop synch dropping. You could definately count victories in the 'small group' queue in any events seperatly than the large group queue with different rewards / ladders.

So I only picked out the potential issue originally cause I didn't read your full post carefully but your original intention is: "The hope would be with a the next fp event, enough players would participate to allow the system to work, and therefore help pug stick around and keep the pop higher. At the same time, because of the throttling at low pop times fp matches would still run."

Firstly, enough players participated. We got instant drops all the time as IS. PUGs stuck around regardless of the butt kicking they got from us because IS had a lot of PUGs dropping as well. They all played because of the rewards. The main issue with the previous event was in the leaderboard scoring system, which was a separate issue from what you're attempting to address.

Weekdays usually see the lowest active population on FW that I've experienced. if you pick the right side to back, you shouldn't really experience wait times either. I was still coming up against mish-mash'd groups of players yesterday evening too.

Why propose the idea of splitting the queues more then? I don't see your highlighted issue being valid and your proposal only makes the situation you're trying to address worse.

Edited by Emeraudes, 29 May 2017 - 10:56 PM.

[maxdest]

Emeraudes, on 29 May 2017 - 10:55 PM, said:

/snip
Firstly, enough players participated. We got instant drops all the time as IS. PUGs stuck around regardless of the butt kicking they got from us because IS had a lot of PUGs dropping as well. They all played because of the rewards. The main issue with the previous event was in the leaderboard scoring system, which was a separate issue from what you're attempting to address.

Weekdays usually see the lowest active population on FW that I've experienced. if you pick the right side to back, you shouldn't really experience wait times either. I was still coming up against mish-mash'd groups of players yesterday evening too.

Why propose the idea of splitting the queues more then? I don't see your highlighted issue being valid and your proposal only makes the situation you're trying to address worse.

The idea is about player retention in FP mode following a popular event.

Yes, there were insta drops in the event... but as explained above there was constant moaning in the PUG queue about facing groups, and when one turned up it was common that PUG's DC'd. Those PUG may have stuck it out for the event, but as soon as the rewards are gone, so are the new players.

If we took thier feedback (about playing vs groups) and made the next event stop this happening as much as possible, then more players might stick around after the event... which is good for the health of the FP game mode.

At a rough guess there are about 150-200 players on concurrently during the times I play (euro primetime) which means that under the idea, the throttle would be off most days, and FP MM would be as it is now. If population doubled (i.e. games in 5 mins or less) then some attempt at MM would take place, and if a full on event happened (i.e. insta drops) then PUG should hardly ever play against large groups.

Edited by maxdest, 30 May 2017 - 11:48 AM.

[Willard Phule]

maxdest, on 29 May 2017 - 03:41 AM, said:

We all know fp split queues cannot normally be split into groups and pug, due to low population.

To counter this, add a new split queue split to split into two pots based on population (i.e. like teir is throttled in QP MM):
- pug and small groups
- large groups

E.g less than 240 people would be as now ( no split )
240+ would begin to split queues with smaller groups filling the pug queue

The hope would be with a the next fp event, enough players would participate to allow the system to work, and therefore help pug stick around and keep the pop higher. At the same time, because of the throttling at low pop times fp matches would still run.

If I understand how the matchmaker works (and I doubt anyone truly does, especially PGI), they should be able to set it up with a "priority" fill. Say, anything with a unit tag first and then people without them.

This will NOT guarantee that groups will be put with each other first as there are many 1 man units out there, but if you're still getting stomped, it's on you. Get rid of the tag and you'll get tossed with the other pugs.

[Scyther]

We already have a PSR system to separate players by tier. Unit tags, size of groups, etc. unnecessary.

All the tier 5-3 players go in one queue. All the tier 2-1 players in the other. Any group drops are matched with their highest tier players. While PSR isn't perfect, anyone at tier 1-2 at least knows their way around the game.

All the win-farmers saying 'if you split queues, our group drops will never get a match' are basically proving the point that FP has low pop (and has always had) because groups are using it to farm wins off pugs.

If the FP experience isn't friendly to lower ranked players, they will never play it enough to become higher ranked. You don't get 'big leagues' without having the 'little leagues' to train and familiarize them.

Edit: I suppose to make MM faster, you could put tier 4-5 in one queue, tier 1-2 in the other, and use tier 3s to fill either queue. Yes, the MM will be slower to start off with, possibly for some months, but PGI sank that boat long ago. The only way to fix it is to implement a system that will slowly increase FP populations, run a few events to show people that 'FP isn't horrible any more', and wait for populations to increase. And ignore the screaming win-farmers in the meantime.

Edited by MadBadger, 01 June 2017 - 05:12 AM.

[Zolaz]

You mean if you make a team focused mode and then run off all the teams, the queue will have long wait times?

[Cato Zilks]

Others mentioned this before:

Add a button for groups to click that is for tougher matches. Essentially, group leader clicks the hard mode button and it adds, tops, 30 seconds to your match search and pairs you with any groups on the other side who also have the box checked. If it can fill two 12 mans in that time, it will. Otherwise, it pairs as many toggled players together as it can, and gives them priority in the cue. THIS DOES NOT SEPARATE THE CUES. It merely adds a very short additional wait time (1-30 seconds) that increases the chances that 1) you will have better teammates and 2) better opponents.

Yes, a top team with this box checked can still face tier 5 puggles if nobody on the other side has their boxes checked. Yes, top tier teams can leave it unchecked to hunt puggles. This is not made to create a safe space. Instead it increases the odds of decent teams facing each other without adding crippling waiting times for anybody.

[Emeraudes]

maxdest, on 30 May 2017 - 11:35 AM, said:

At a rough guess there are about 150-200 players on concurrently during the times I play (euro primetime) which means that under the idea, the throttle would be off most days, and FP MM would be as it is now. If population doubled (i.e. games in 5 mins or less) then some attempt at MM would take place, and if a full on event happened (i.e. insta drops) then PUG should hardly ever play against large groups.

This concept assumes that people are interested in playing primarily this game during their free time. However, I have rarely seen people devote most of their hobby time to a single video game that they aren't good at. Events push more people to play because of the prizes they offer that are not obtainable otherwise. So the metrics are there for most games, events mean a spike in player-base. No events and the player-base drops to the regular levels.

Also splitting the queues was mentioned in many other posts, my opinion on the matter is still that it won't work.

My prediction of what will happen if queues are split again is:
1: PGI splits the queues, groups who queue to smash pugs, split to solo synch and smash pugs
2: Group queue loses a portion(not all) of their large groups, only small unevenly filled groups remain with some large groups.
3: Group queue cannot field 12 man teams effectively as some factions have potentially 6, 5 and 3 man groups queuing.
4: Those groups see that other players are solo synch dropping and do the same.
5: Some units synch drop with associated units(my unit has at least 4 other friendly units) all on the Same Faction Alignment.
6: Status quo.

PUGs still get smashed, sometimes groups who synch dropped fight each other. The groups aren't as large as 12man but it doesn't matter. If you're not in a team that has these groups, you still get smashed.

In QP, it synch dropping doesn't see as great an effect cause you can end up on the enemy team. In FW, you're always on the same side, it's just a matter of whether you're on the same team as some other people.

[Scyther]

Unless you split queues based on PSR and not unit tags, size of group, or whatever. Gets a bit harder to 'synch drop to smash pugs' when all those pugs are people of your tier.

[Emeraudes]

MadBadger, on 01 June 2017 - 09:43 AM, said:

Unless you split queues based on PSR and not unit tags, size of group, or whatever. Gets a bit harder to 'synch drop to smash pugs' when all those pugs are people of your tier.

Yeah except I'm getting matched with tier 4 people frequently. So PGI has to fix this, PSR system and balance QP and FW populations.

I really don't see this happening in the foreseeable future.