126 replies to this topic

[Shifty McSwift]

Old dirty B, on 16 June 2017 - 01:51 AM, said:

Oddly, i never encounter those "godmode" ravens, usually they go down pretty quickly (taking out their legs) or they aren't effective and hiding most of the time. Of course, there are a few dedicated Raven pilots that do super specially good. But most of the time, those players that all turn around to shoot the "squirrel" (or raven in this case) are - (lets put this friendly) - not very skilled / dont have good aim / dont have good tracking and obviously don't play as a team but as 8 individuals.
Perhaps lag or better said latency is a factor of importance, but thats situational and occasional at best. If this is a structural problem other mechs (also the big ones) benefit from data loss and so on. In other words, with latency problems, any mech can be influenced and "shielded" like that...

Apart from a few situational and occasional occurances, most common cause of these complaints is a skill gap between the light and other pilot. You can check the data up in this thread...

Man, I still kill a fair share of lights even with lasers and ACs as my main weapons, and there are plenty of good light pilots who kick my *** because they play well, one example, shooting me in the back when I take fire from another direction, or pushing in with teammates, around my legs and getting behind me, there is good usages of light that should be and are rewarded in most cases.

The difference is how the game can play out, rewarding what should be bad play on a lights end. If I get a light jump in right behind my butt, by himself, while I am surrounded by teammates (which happens surprisingly frequently), unless my teammates refuse to respond to the call, or are TERRIBLE at aiming, that light dies. The issue is the fact that any kind of team tactics go out the window in QP, so you see lights getting rewarded for what are essentially terrible plays.

That notion is separate from the ping/hit registry problems though, there are multiple factors that can add up in these regards, and the smaller and faster a mech is, the more prone they seem to be at triggering such issues. That seems like simple fact, you can throw the bad aim argument around all you want, but the hit registry system is not perfect or the same for all mechs, and the cross global server communications too, aren't and probably never can be perfect.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 16 June 2017 - 02:05 AM.

[Aramuside]

Shifty McSwift, on 16 June 2017 - 02:00 AM, said:

Man, I still kill a fair share of lights even with lasers and ACs as my main weapons, and there are plenty of good light pilots who kick my *** because they play well, one example, shooting me in the back when I take fire from another direction, or pushing in with teammates, around my legs and getting behind me, there is good usages of light that should be and are rewarded in most cases.

The difference is how the game can play out, rewarding what should be bad play on a lights end. If I get a light jump in right behind my butt, by himself, while I am surrounded by teammates (which happens surprisingly frequently), unless my teammates refuse to respond to the call, or are TERRIBLE at aiming, that light dies. The issue is the fact that any kind of team tactics go out the window in QP, so you see lights getting rewarded for what are essentially terrible plays.

That notion is separate from the ping/hit registry problems though, there are multiple factors that can add up in these regards, and the smaller and faster a mech is, the more prone they seem to be at triggering such issues. That seems like simple fact, you can throw the bad aim argument around all you want, but the hit registry system is not perfect or the same for all mechs, and the cross global server communications too, aren't and probably never can be perfect.

Except those of us that primarily play in lights and fast mediums don't seem to experience this miracle effect shooting lights when we're in our heavies and assaults. Its almost as if we're used to targeting them.....

I use a BLR-2C and NGR-D but the difference between us is I'm honest enough not to blame other factors when I miss or the light rolls my damage to spread it. I get a decent opening i usually hit. I miss and I'm blaming myself not others....

[Shifty McSwift]

And yes, it is not a case of 50% of the time or probably not even 25% of the time, but when weird stuff happens you can generally tell in mechs/weapons you are experienced in. And you may not have seen it yourself, but I have witnessed on plenty of occasions, particularly with locusts, multiple targets shooting a light including myself, getting visible hit registration on my end and watching many different weapon systems slap into him (body shake from LBX etc), only to have seemingly nothing happen to his frame, or having damage going in weird places in the more rare but eyebrow raising moments.

I was fighting one guy recently, and he kept powering down whenever I went to look at him, so I would put large sections of damage into his CT when he did, it was only after the third time I did this I realised my damage was not registering properly, and this random light managed to tank some 175 damage and seemingly have it go nowhere, granted that was a weird occurrence, and I should have just targeted his leg, but it certainly got me killed in that game nonetheless.

[Shifty McSwift]

Old dirty B, on 16 June 2017 - 01:51 AM, said:

If this is a structural problem other mechs (also the big ones) benefit from data loss and so on. In other words, with latency problems, any mech can be influenced and "shielded" like that...

This is just one of the several issues that I mentioned, they stack up and become more pronounced on the smaller and faster mechs in practice, I don't see why such a concept is at all controversial or hard to accept, the problems can apply across classes, it just becomes more pronounced and much harder to deal with in practice on smaller and faster mechs to which/when it applies.

[Old dirty B]

I'm not denying nor refusing to accept that there are some latency / hit registration issues happening now and then, i'm sure some are experiencing it more then others and perhaps it is more pronounced on the smaller mechs. But in the end this is still just a fraction of all incidents where a light or small mech is causing frustration on the other end... Calling for a rescale to overcome this is actually just a sign of incapability nothing else...

Here's some footage how "godly" a raven is (or actually 2 are):

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Old dirty B, on 16 June 2017 - 02:51 AM, said:

I'm not denying nor refusing to accept that there are some latency / hit registration issues happening now and then, i'm sure some are experiencing it more then others and perhaps it is more pronounced on the smaller mechs. But in the end this is still just a fraction of all incidents where a light or small mech is causing frustration on the other end... Calling for a rescale to overcome this is actually just a sign of incapability nothing else...

Here's some footage how "godly" a raven is (or actually 2 are):

Look, any mech with no lower arm actuators are going to be screwed over by a Locust in a knife fight. There's no ifs or buts about it - in short range combat, a LCT's turns and moves faster than any mech's torso yaw speed. Combine that with the fact that the RVN - particularly anything that isn't a 4X - has the lowest overall agility in both turnrate and torso yaw speed among lights, and that both of these RVNs have what looks like ERLLs instead of close-quarters weapons, and everything comes out as expected. RVNs will get grazing shots on the LCT at most, and the LCT can actually land most of the damage when its SPLs unload all its damage pretty much instantly. What's this video intended to prove, other than what is already known?

That being said, the 'godmode raven' problem is likely people with torso-mounted weapons trying to shoot off a RVN's legs - and failing miserably, because a RVN's walk cycle has a really, really long stride. Instead of shooting at the hip joint, they probably shoot midway up the RVN's legs, and end up whiffing more than half their damage. People need to learn to pick a RVN side torso and damage it as much as possible. RVNs have no lower arm actuator; they need to stare at a target to do damage, which means that they can't actually fire back without exposing their damaged ST.

Edited by Fox With A Shotgun, 16 June 2017 - 03:19 AM.

[Old dirty B]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 16 June 2017 - 03:15 AM, said:

What's this video intended to prove, other than what is already known?

Well apparently we not all know... but this video is to "prove" that not being able to kill a Raven is not because of the Raven. Its mostly incapability (build and skill wise) to aim and hit this mech, or any other small mech. Other then that, nothing to proof with this video. Perhaps some entertainment?

Edited by Old dirty B, 16 June 2017 - 03:23 AM.

[radiv]

Old dirty B, on 16 June 2017 - 02:51 AM, said:

Here's some footage how "godly" a raven is (or actually 2 are):

what is the potato fight suppose to show?

[Shifty McSwift]

Old dirty B, on 16 June 2017 - 02:51 AM, said:

I'm not denying nor refusing to accept that there are some latency / hit registration issues happening now and then, i'm sure some are experiencing it more then others and perhaps it is more pronounced on the smaller mechs. But in the end this is still just a fraction of all incidents where a light or small mech is causing frustration on the other end... Calling for a rescale to overcome this is actually just a sign of incapability nothing else...

Yeah, and I am not calling for a resize specifically, though in some cases I might vote for rather than against.

The point is more that some of these issues cannot be overcome, no matter how competent a dev or set might be, the trick is not to build into them, try to build with that potential in mind etc.

The smallest of the small mechs right now, I am not sure if rescaling is what they need, but they DEFINITELY need the most intensive hitbox and mech shape work considering their in game application, and arguably where a resize may not be needed armor reductions might etc, possibly some greater variation is speeds to mobility rates etc, much like other classes, they shouldn't be able to "do it all". Lights are for good reason IMO, one of the most skill based classes, the hardest to do well and right, the easiest to mess up in and die.

What worries me more, is people complaining about them being to big right now, even these super smalls (in the cases of some of the upscaled and now quite large mechs I might agree). And not only that people seem to be expecting even smaller and faster mechs to make appearances, where we are now is borderline IMO, it doesn't need to get smaller scale at all.

[Old dirty B]

radiv, on 16 June 2017 - 03:22 AM, said:

what is the potato fight suppose to show?

The only reason this video is posted is to show that any inability to kill a Raven (because it was mentioned) is not because of the Raven itself. If you cant kill one, it is of inability because of build limits, pilot skill limits and in a few occasions because of latency / network issues. Too bad these Raven pilots didnt put up a better fight, but it was the only footage i had featuring ravens.

[Shifty McSwift]

It could be a sign of my general experience too, I tend to be a crazyman magnet in my build, I should really record fights more often but I chug badly as it is...

Seriously I see some of the most insane behaviour in my KDK, from stuff like 1 light or medium death charging and face tanking me and 4 other guys in an attempt to open my torso, to 6 or more people, dashing way out of a good position to try and put me down, losing the game in the process.

IDK what it is about these notorious assaults, but they tend to send some people over the edge it seems.

I would guess its about the same feeling for some lights when half a team chases them for hundreds of meters lol.

[Toothless]

Yea well water should slow down mechs, especially lights. Where is your realism now?

[Y E O N N E]

Shifty McSwift, on 16 June 2017 - 02:00 AM, said:

That notion is separate from the ping/hit registry problems though, there are multiple factors that can add up in these regards, and the smaller and faster a mech is, the more prone they seem to be at triggering such issues. That seems like simple fact, you can throw the bad aim argument around all you want, but the hit registry system is not perfect or the same for all mechs, and the cross global server communications too, aren't and probably never can be perfect.

You know, I don't see these hit registration issues. I simply don't. I can't recall a single instance where I put out damage and it failed to register in accordance with what I saw happen. Even the Locust and Commando. In fact, the closest I can think of seeing this issue is when I put PPC rounds directly into a center torso on a larger 'Mech and it flashes several times but never changes color (or simply won't die despite being on the edge), but I normally attribute that to structure quirks or a near miss into a destroyed side.

And even then, let's assume that there is a hit registration issue on the tiny fast 'Mechs. Those 'Mechs are minimally viable in this game, at this time. They are not too good, the rest of the Lights are just worse. But those that are okay are so precisely because they are as fast as they are and can sustain and redirect damage as well as they can, and that includes any potential hit-reg woes. If you make them bigger and/or slower, you will have to add compensation elsewhere in the form of higher agility, better offensive quirks, more hit-points, etc.

TL;DR: the hit-reg isn't a problem because, even assuming it exists, those 'Mechs "abusing" it would require buffs to compensate were it to be fixed somehow, and you'd have zero net change to the game.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 16 June 2017 - 07:03 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 June 2017 - 07:03 AM, said:

You know, I don't see these hit registration issues. I simply don't. I can't recall a single instance where I put out damage and it failed to register in accordance with what I saw happen. Even the Locust and Commando. In fact, the closest I can think of seeing this issue is when I put PPC rounds directly into a center torso on a larger 'Mech and it flashes several times but never changes color (or simply won't die despite being on the edge), but I normally attribute that to structure quirks or a near miss into a destroyed side.

And even then, let's assume that there is a hit registration issue on the tiny fast 'Mechs. Those 'Mechs are minimally viable in this game, at this time. They are not too good, the rest of the Lights are just worse. But those that are okay are so precisely because they are as fast as they are and can sustain and redirect damage as well as they can, and that includes any potential hit-reg woes. If you make them bigger and/or slower, you will have to add compensation elsewhere in the form of higher agility, better offensive quirks, more hit-points, etc.

TL;DR: the hit-reg isn't a problem because, even assuming it exists, those 'Mechs "abusing" it would require buffs to compensate were it to be fixed somehow, and you'd have zero net change to the game.

Yeah, agreed, if they need compensation for rescaling or whatever then give them compensation for it, to me it makes much more sense to go that way than the other, which is to make mechs smaller BECAUSE they have issues there that make them unnaturally tanky or whatever.

And again I am not necessarily calling for a rescale or whatever, just pointing out why lights and sizing is where the topic gets critical, particularly considering how the engine of the game works and what it is capable of.

Personally I don't mind the actual size of some of the super lights now, but I really wouldn't want to see smaller mechs, some of them I would argue might have too much armor or whatever, but that would be a case by case, personal opinion thing.

[Khobai]

the biggest problem I have is the sheer inconsistency of the scaling

like a 35 ton jenner being smaller than a 30 ton kitfox

its the same problem I have with engine desync, its completely inconsistent, and theres too many outliers.

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Yea well water should slow down mechs, especially lights. Where is your realism now?

nah it really shouldnt. that would just turn water into a deathtrap and make our already small maps even smaller. mechs would have to avoid water instead of walking through it which screws up a lot of the current maps. especially maps like river city where one team has no choice but to go into the water.

the only thing that needs to be fixed is water shielding. weapon damage should not be reduced by water. mechs do not need to move slower in water though.

Edited by Khobai, 16 June 2017 - 07:36 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 16 June 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

the only thing that needs to be fixed is water shielding. weapon damage should not be reduced by water.

I think that was fixed. Shooting a Locust's legs in the water, seems to die just as fast as outside.

[Khobai]

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I think that was fixed. Shooting a Locust's legs in the water, seems to die just as fast as outside.

as far as I know, energy damage is still reduced by water and missiles still explode when they contact the surface of water.

[Y E O N N E]

Shifty McSwift, on 16 June 2017 - 07:26 AM, said:

Personally I don't mind the actual size of some of the super lights now, but I really wouldn't want to see smaller mechs, some of them I would argue might have too much armor or whatever, but that would be a case by case, personal opinion thing.

Well, I take issue with the term "super lights." Are you saying super as in "these things are way too good" or super as in "these things are just better than the bad Lights"? Because, from my experience, none of them are "super" in the first sense. I don't think any of them have too much armor, either, and some could use more in places (i.e. MLX, LCT-3S, CMD-TDK). But even the supposedly tanky ones have piddly firepower. They fold easily when people actually shoot at them as something other than an afterthought.

As for not wanting to see smaller 'Mechs, are you referring to not wanting the bigger Lights to be shrunk back down?

[Shifty McSwift]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 June 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

Well, I take issue with the term "super lights." Are you saying super as in "these things are way too good" or super as in "these things are just better than the bad Lights"? Because, from my experience, none of them are "super" in the first sense. I don't think any of them have too much armor, either, and some could use more in places (i.e. MLX, LCT-3S, CMD-TDK). But even the supposedly tanky ones have piddly firepower. They fold easily when people actually shoot at them as something other than an afterthought.

As for not wanting to see smaller 'Mechs, are you referring to not wanting the bigger Lights to be shrunk back down?

Firstly, super lights is just a way of me defining those lights that are the tiniest and currently mostly also the fastest, the penultimate light-lights, there's probably a better word for it, but that is all I meant by it.

Secondly, No I meant people wanting mechs smaller and faster than those tiny mechs we have now, those rescaled lights that are large may be too big or need better scaling etc, again that's probably a case by case thing. Where we are now in terms of the size of the smallest lights, is arguably too much, but it is livable, if mechs started getting smaller I'd be concerned.

When it comes to future mechs that are actually smaller than the smallest mechs we have now, I would much prefer them to be about the size of the tiny lights now, and have those older "tiny mechs" scaled up a bit, than to add mechs smaller than the already insectoid "super lights" we have now.

[Y E O N N E]

Shifty McSwift, on 16 June 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

Firstly, super lights is just a way of me defining those lights that are the tiniest and currently mostly also the fastest, the penultimate light-lights, there's probably a better word for it, but that is all I meant by it.

Got it, thank you for clarifying.

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Secondly, No I meant people wanting mechs smaller and faster than those tiny mechs we have now, those rescaled lights that are large may be too big or need better scaling etc, again that's probably a case by case thing. Where we are now in terms of the size of the smallest lights, is arguably too much, but it is livable, if mechs started getting smaller I'd be concerned.

Agreed. I would even say that I preferred the Locust when it was larger and easier to hit, but compensated for that by having some pretty fantastic offensive quirks and better agility. It had a higher skill floor and, IMHO, a higher skill ceiling.

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When it comes to future mechs that are actually smaller than the smallest mechs we have now, I would much prefer them to be about the size of the tiny lights now, and have those older "tiny mechs" scaled up a bit, than to add mechs smaller than the already insectoid "super lights" we have now.

Also agreed. Even some of the larger Lights, like the Firestarter, I find the larger problem is more so their lack of agility rather than raw size. It takes forever and a day to align all eight of the Firestarter's weapons and it has the turn radius and acceleration of a Nimitz-class supercarrier, all of which conspire to make it worse than it should be. You are better off taking a Phoenix Hawk, it's that bad.