78 replies to this topic

[The Jerol]

Two months ago, you had 33,000 players on your leaderboards. Now you have 25,000.

I stopped playing after the Skill Tree went live as I just didn't have the desire (or time) to completely re-learn the Mech Lab/game. I understand and accept the premise that skilling up a mech in the new system becomes much easier after you've spent the requisite hours reading up on it, watching videos on it, testing it out in the Testing grounds, etc. I just don't want to do all that right now -- and I'm apparently not alone. Add to that the fact that when the new tech is released a lot of skill builds will need to be radically revised (adding to the time and grind) and it becomes a bit overwhelming.

I'm an ideal customer and a gigantic fan of anything Battletech related. It is my profound hope that I will find the energy (and time) to come back to the game, but many will not. What is the strategy in play here? Alienate a quarter of your player base, while adding zero new players by making an already complex game even more complicated? When I log in and see hundreds of skill points and hundreds of millions of C-bills to allocate, and a skill tree with over 250 choices to make per mech, then multiply that times dozens of mechs to re-skill, I just get depressed, to be honest.

I'm addressing this post to PGI -- though I'm ready and willing to accept the "good riddance, we don't want you to play anyway" responses which are the norm on these forums. When 25% of your player base goes away in a month, your game is in trouble. What are you doing about it?

[CK16]

Let's see...summer is here (some people do like the sun...)

Game is stable, sky is not falling, move along.

[cazidin]

...What, exactly, do you think PGI can do?

[Andi Nagasia]

i only get on for a couple minutes a day, after all its summer, and i live in Florida,






.. one sec the beach is calling,

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

What are you doing about it?

Adding a new set of weapons to arguably add more variety to gameplay, apparently.

Given, there's a lot more I'd do if I was in Paul's shoes, but nobody else is walking a mile in those or Russ's, thus any fixes can't come from the most effective angles.

[Cementi]

I do not even like summer and I am having a hard time finding the time to play mwo.......

I swear every June we get two or three of these threads.

[Ruar]

cazidin, on 16 June 2017 - 10:34 AM, said:

...What, exactly, do you think PGI can do?

Seems fairly easy fix TBH.

Keep the skill tree, but have variable cost for skills, make them linear, reduce total SP to 50 or so.

Solves pretty much all of the issues people have been talking about since they first put the skill tree up on test.

[Bud Crue]

cazidin, on 16 June 2017 - 10:34 AM, said:

...What, exactly, do you think PGI can do?

Well for starters a bowl of chips and guacamole cockpit item wouldn't hurt. Maybe some salsa. I mean it wouldn't hurt player numbers certainly.

Either that or they could stream line the skills tree and make some nice video tutorials for use in the academy so that's new players have some clue as to wtf is going on with it.

I think we have a better shot at getting the chips though.

[Zigmund Freud]

The Jerol, on 16 June 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

I stopped playing after the Skill Tree went live as I just didn't have the desire (or time) to completely re-learn the Mech Lab/game. I understand and accept the premise that skilling up a mech in the new system becomes much easier after you've spent the requisite hours reading up on it, watching videos on it, testing it out in the Testing grounds, etc.

You are exagurating way too much. You can understand how things work by reading description for 1 (or even less) hour and skilling 2-3 mechs. After that you skill up any mech in maybe 5 minutes or so. And if you have 8 zillions mechs - you just skill up every paticular mech only when you want to drop with it.
If you're meta tryhard (not as it's something bad) - you just open the forums, read threads like "I just sciensed the skill tree" and copy their mathematically meta build. Why is it so hard?

[Ruar]

Zigmund Freud, on 16 June 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

You are exagurating way too much. You can understand how things work by reading description for 1 (or even less) hour and skilling 2-3 mechs. After that you skill up any mech in maybe 5 minutes or so. And if you have 8 zillions mechs - you just skill up every paticular mech only when you want to drop with it.
If you're meta tryhard (not as it's something bad) - you just open the forums, read threads like "I just sciensed the skill tree" and copy their mathematically meta build. Why is it so hard?

He's not completely wrong. I've spent several hours learning the skill tree changes through test and live, to include videos and forum posts.

The skill tree is a good idea poorly implemented and they really, really, need to fix it.

[Kendricke]

cazidin, on 16 June 2017 - 10:34 AM, said:

...What, exactly, do you think PGI can do?

Just had a conversation in my own unit about this. Some things I could think of right off the top of my head would include the ability to save/share/copy skill tree templates from chassis to chassis that would help speed up the process for vets who have a ton of points to get through; or a couple of helpful "autobuy skills" options depending on what type of build you're going for that could help newer or more casual players build out mechs without having to theorycraft or look outside of the game; and a grace period after the changes that gave unlimited resets if you weren't happy with a build after spending points/c-bills.

If we're all acknowledging that the summer means less online time, why would I want to spend more of that time redoing skill trees (or researching skill tress or watching videos about skill trees) when I just want to log in and play - especially when the chances of me getting it wrong are now much greater than me getting it right. At least half my unit has largely stopped logging in since the changes for exactly the same reasons that some of you are saying here - both because it's summer and we have families and things to do offline, but this is exacerbated MORE by the more tedious overhead costs related to administering mechs instead of actually fighting in mechs.

Edited by Kendricke, 16 June 2017 - 10:56 AM.

[Jman5]

Right, because comparing data from a season that's only half way over to a complete season is logical.

You know I have this exercise app on my phone that counts steps and they're having some event this month to get 200,000 steps. In it they list the number of participants. I've noticed that every day thousands of new people join the event.

I promise you, Season 12 will be higher than 25,000 by the end of the month.

[Scout Derek]

Jman5, on 16 June 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

Right, because comparing data from a season that's only half way over to a complete season is logical.

You know I have this exercise app on my phone that counts steps and they're having some event this month to get 200,000 steps. In it they list the number of participants. I've noticed that every day thousands of new people join the event.

I promise you, Season 12 will be higher than 25,000 by the end of the month.

[JC Daxion]

You know its funny. People complain about how hard it is to spend a couple hours figuring out the skill tree. The same people have hundreds of mechs and have played 1k's of drops with ends up being a giant amount of time..

People also have been clamoring for new tech, and i can't even count how much time they spend on the forums discussing said new tech and just theory crafting..

Then when tech hits how many hours are people going to spend just trying to figure out new builds, test, play log into smurfy to find new fun builds to play with..


But they draw the line at a few hours to learn a new system, that honestly once you play with it for a little bit its about as simple as it can get. I play an unskilled mech now and it takes me all of a min or two to skill up. I've maybe had 100 drops over the last month and easily skilled up 20 mechs in probably my least played month this year.



But OP FYI, when i have checked steam numbers when i've been on, for the most part they have been averaging a higher amount total.. from around 1k, i've seen numbers up in the 1.3-1.4k people more often than not. I have noticed late night numbers have dropped a little from around 800-900 down to around 700-800,

[Karl Streiger]

Ok since start of June i played 11hrs - the other game with the nice looking Mr Atlas.
However its not the skill tree - When the St is for somebody to hard to learn i highly suggest he stops participating in any social media, throw away your mobile devices

The tree might look oj but as anything in mwo hard to learn but already mastered.

[Wyald Katt]

Andi Nagasia, on 16 June 2017 - 10:36 AM, said:

i only get on for a couple minutes a day, after all its summer, and i live in Florida, .. one sec the beach is calling,

I'm in Florida, too. But my reaction is more "AUGH THE SUN" and "AUGH RETIREES".

I take comfort that MWO players drive better than they do. Mostly.

[Kendricke]

JC Daxion, on 16 June 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

You know its funny. People complain about how hard it is to spend a couple hours figuring out the skill tree. The same people have hundreds of mechs and have played 1k's of drops with ends up being a giant amount of time.. ,

Yes, that's correct. The first concept that supports this is referred to as "friction". If there's too much "friction" at any given time, people suddenly find other things to do with their time and money, whether it's a show, a website, or a game. Everyone's threshhold for friction varies - and it can vary week to week or even minute to minute. If you've ever found yourself just logging out of the game completely after a particularly bad match frustrated you, then you've run into your own threshhold.

One of the guys in my unit - one of our few Tier 1s? He's an onocological pediatrician with three kids. I've known him since high school. When he DOES get time to go online, he just wants to log in and play a game. We've been playing other games in the past couple months because the friction of figuring out the new skill system is a pain in the *** (and a time sink neither of us wants to currently deal with). Is it the worst thing ever? No, but we both have kids and limited time (especially this time of year) so we have to make a deliberate choice with our time and money (I'm no whale, but I've spent more than a few bucks on this game over the past several years) - and right now, other developers/publishers are getting both.

Another couple of concepts revolve around design theories such as "flow" and "mastery". Players tend to enjoy games where they feel they've achieved some level of mastery over particular aspects of the game. Flow is a concept where you stop having to consciously think through your decisions and they become essentially muscle memory. Both of these concepts took a hit when the mechs you spent years playing with suddenly felt very different, even after spending time and energy with the new skill trees.

Another concept I like to bring up is or "analysis paralysis". If I have to choose between two outcomes, I have an even shot at making the right choice (as opposed to the wrong choice). If neither choice is "bad", but rather just different, even better. I'm much more likely to choose when I'm less worried about making a bad choice. If you give me 5 choices, but only one is the "right" choice, then I'm much less likely to want to take the plunge - because while I have a 20% shot at making a good choice, I have a 400% greater chance at making the wrong (or at least not ideal) choice. If I DO make a mistake because the UI is less than perfect or the system allows for bigger mistakes (like spending more on slots than the mech has available, etc), then I'm going to feel pretty crappy about having to pay a "stupidity tax". This adds to the friction of the process and increases the chances I'm just going to say "F it" and move to a different way to spend my time on that particular night.

For most of you on these forums, I'd guess these are all relatively minor hurdles to overcome. That's great for you. Really. For me, it's honestly just not worth my time or attention right now because it just feels like something I really just don't want to deal with right now. Think I'm a noob or casual or whatever? That's fine. Doesn't really impact me, because you're not the reason I've played over the years. You've got your reasons. I've got mine. It's all good. I'm sure when things settle down (for both the game and for us personally), we'll find our ways back to here and we'll finally get around to taking the hit on the time needed to learn the new system.

I'm not saying the game is bad or the sky is falling. I'm sharing my perspectives (with some experience from the other side of the table) on what makes players walk away from a game (even temporarily). I'm not saying there are thousands like me (or even dozens - I'm not seeing the data on this to determine if PGI's DAU/MAU took a hit), but I can tell you that anecdotally, I know why I (and a few others I talk to) are taking a break right now.

For the right people, these are nuggets of gold - free insight without focus tests or surveys - to determine why _some_ players _may_ be cooling to the game right now.

Unless you think these opinions don't matter. If so, as you were and carry on. Makes no real diff to me.

Happy hunting.

[Bigbacon]

Ruar, on 16 June 2017 - 10:47 AM, said:

He's not completely wrong. I've spent several hours learning the skill tree changes through test and live, to include videos and forum posts.

The skill tree is a good idea poorly implemented and they really, really, need to fix it.

and skill tree destroyed mechs that were onces almost usable in play because of quirks. they are once again, complete trash and not worth using.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Nobody who really likes this game is quitting over the skill tree. The only people quitting over the skill tree are the "old dogs" who lack the brainpower to chose skills. They can only function if their skills are forced upon them with no choice in the matter.

That way they don't have to worry about somebody "out-mechlabbing" them. The fear is real... So is the driveling.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 16 June 2017 - 11:39 AM.

[Ruar]

Kendricke, on 16 June 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

Yes, that's correct. The first concept that supports this is referred to as "friction". If there's too much "friction" at any given time, people suddenly find other things to do with their time and money, whether it's a show, a website, or a game. Everyone's threshhold for friction varies - and it can vary week to week or even minute to minute. If you've ever found yourself just logging out of the game completely after a particularly bad match frustrated you, then you've run into your own threshhold.

One of the guys in my unit - one of our few Tier 1s? He's an onocological pediatrician with three kids. I've known him since high school. When he DOES get time to go online, he just wants to log in and play a game. We've been playing other games in the past couple months because the friction of figuring out the new skill system is a pain in the *** (and a time sink neither of us wants to currently deal with). Is it the worst thing ever? No, but we both have kids and limited time (especially this time of year) so we have to make a deliberate choice with our time and money (I'm no whale, but I've spent more than a few bucks on this game over the past several years) - and right now, other developers/publishers are getting both.

Another couple of concepts revolve around design theories such as "flow" and "mastery". Players tend to enjoy games where they feel they've achieved some level of mastery over particular aspects of the game. Flow is a concept where you stop having to consciously think through your decisions and they become essentially muscle memory. Both of these concepts took a hit when the mechs you spent years playing with suddenly felt very different, even after spending time and energy with the new skill trees.

Another concept I like to bring up is or "analysis paralysis". If I have to choose between two outcomes, I have an even shot at making the right choice (as opposed to the wrong choice). If neither choice is "bad", but rather just different, even better. I'm much more likely to choose when I'm less worried about making a bad choice. If you give me 5 choices, but only one is the "right" choice, then I'm much less likely to want to take the plunge - because while I have a 20% shot at making a good choice, I have a 400% greater chance at making the wrong (or at least not ideal) choice. If I DO make a mistake because the UI is less than perfect or the system allows for bigger mistakes (like spending more on slots than the mech has available, etc), then I'm going to feel pretty crappy about having to pay a "stupidity tax". This adds to the friction of the process and increases the chances I'm just going to say "F it" and move to a different way to spend my time on that particular night.

For most of you on these forums, I'd guess these are all relatively minor hurdles to overcome. That's great for you. Really. For me, it's honestly just not worth my time or attention right now because it just feels like something I really just don't want to deal with right now. Think I'm a noob or casual or whatever? That's fine. Doesn't really impact me, because you're not the reason I've played over the years. You've got your reasons. I've got mine. It's all good. I'm sure when things settle down (for both the game and for us personally), we'll find our ways back to here and we'll finally get around to taking the hit on the time needed to learn the new system.

I'm not saying the game is bad or the sky is falling. I'm sharing my perspectives (with some experience from the other side of the table) on what makes players walk away from a game (even temporarily). I'm not saying there are thousands like me (or even dozens - I'm not seeing the data on this to determine if PGI's DAU/MAU took a hit), but I can tell you that anecdotally, I know why I (and a few others I talk to) are taking a break right now.

For the right people, these are nuggets of gold - free insight without focus tests or surveys - to determine why _some_ players _may_ be cooling to the game right now.

Unless you think these opinions don't matter. If so, as you were and carry on. Makes no real diff to me.

Happy hunting.

So much this. Thank you for putting into words I can't.

I have spent more time on the forums since the ST release than I have in the game. Which is surprising since I really enjoy playing the Quickdraw, a new mech for me, but the game just isn't as much fun having to deal with the ST.

Maybe it's my favorite mech pre-ST isn't that much fun anymore. I have over 450 matches in my ENF-4R but I barely play it after the ST release because it just doesn't feel as fun to play. Overheats too fast so I spend more time waiting to cooldown than I do actually fighting. Anyway I redesign the build results in something I don't enjoy.

Regardless, the game just isn't the same since they released the skill tree. Which is good and bad because I'm getting other things done in my life, but I no longer look forward to playing MWO most days.