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June 20 Patch Notes! Are Up! Link Inside!


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#181 Cy Mitchell

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 10:10 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 17 June 2017 - 08:26 AM, said:


Now do the same with the IS build. You have to fire that LPL right after you fire the ML to synchronize them and they have almost the same time to wait before you can fire again.

You can do, literally, the same exact thing with the Clan lasers. You choose whether you want the burns to end at the same time or whether you want to front-load the damage slightly by initiating the burn at the same time. It's not the end of the world.

Staggering your triggers absolutely does work. We've been doing it since forever in this game. It isn't going to kill you to have to use two triggers to fire a vomit, if you aren't doing so already (and you should have been).



Completely out of sync? You mean 0.16 seconds is out of synch? What have I been doing all my life with my isLPLs having a 0.23 second spread over my isMLs?

Please, don't exaggerate. cERML on group 1, cLPL on group 2. Fire 1, fire 2 ~0.16 seconds later. Tada, synchronization!



I'm thinking even more about the isSPL boats that got their already 2/3 damage reduced by an additional twelfth relative to the cSPL while retaining garbage range and essentially losing the duration advantage they had. The ACH is the hardest hit 'Mech, now having cSPL firepower no better than a Locust, but I'm having an extremely difficult time finding a tear to shed for any other cSPL-wielder when they were out of line and when the superior range and damage of the cERSL beckons.



Brief history:

Mid-2014: Clans come out, ridiculously OP, machine guns get nerfed for #reasons
Late-2014: Minor quirks introduced, mostly structure on special 'Mechs like the HBK and CN9. Clan laser vomit adjusted, PPCs nerfed into the ground for everybody, pulse lasers buffed for everybody
Early 2015: Quirks for days; some genuinely OP IS 'Mechs in here, but most of the quirks focused on specific weapons to make them useful instead of trash (i.e. LCT-1E got 230 m isSL and it was neat but not great)
Mid 2015: Everybody complained about the specific quirks, PGI goes to more general quirks, some OP 'Mechs get reined in, others emerge
Late 2015: Even more general quirks, now with giga-buffed structure! IS laser vomit so strong that it paralyzes any team playing all Clans.
Early 2016: PGI whacks the IS 'Mechs; all energy range and heat quirks top out at 10% now, most duration quirks are removed, and structure is reduced across the board. Twice. Original skill tree gets nerfed for everybody,
Mid 2016: More nerfs to IS mobility, structure, and firepower quirks, mostly to 'Mechs that had already fallen out of favor because IIC 'Mechs had arrived and supplanted them. Rescale comes out and is accompanied by more quirk nerfs.
Late 2016: More nerfs to IS structure and mobility, a few firepower reductions to 'Mechs that had already been replaced by the Night Gyr. KDK loses agility, MAD-IIC comes out and is slightly ludicrous; most balance passes at this point are more even.

Now we're in 2017, and Clans are under the spotlight again.

I would say you are decommisioning 'Mechs prematurely.

The Kodiak is still fearsome, it's just not good at dancing (and apart from the SB, it really shouldn't be). Its long-range alpha is still unmatched by anything other than a MAD-IIC or a DWF, and both of those have inferior hard-point placement among other deficiencies.

The TBR is also still quite good; the new acceleration curves means it can still poke well despite taking longer to reach top speed, because you don't need to reach top speed, just jitter over an edge. It can also still steamroll a target with massive firepower, which is essentially what the brawler builds on it did before; they also never really danced, and if your target managed to side-step your initial attempt that was usually it for that side torso. No net change.

NTG, there was really nothing else they could do to rein it in, except possibly nerfing the velocity on cERPPC. I don't agree with its mobility nerfs, but we'll see.

MAD-IIC, that was stupid. They even whacked the crappy ones, when those needed buffs. Seriously, how often do you see the -B variant in game? Everybody will just flock to the -8 for laser vomit and grab a targeting computer. PGI needs to stop blanket-nerfing a chassis and actually look at which ones are doing well and why.


I do not typically get involved in the Clan vs IS debate. I agree with your early part of the "nerf" timeline up to mid-2016. After that the Clan got just as many and bigger negative adjustments than the IS. So it is not like they have been dodging the nerf hammer until 2017. It started in 2016 and has continued for the last calendar year.

I am not saying the negative adjustments to Clan were not needed for the sake of balance. I am just pointing out that Clan has been taking the brunt of the changes for a year now.

#182 Y E O N N E

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 10:14 AM

View PostDGTLDaemon, on 17 June 2017 - 10:07 AM, said:

Out of curiosity, I just tried building it in smurfy's... Well, what can I say - you are a very, very brave man. I wouldn't even consider running a mech with THIS kind of heat management. But to each their own Posted Image


21 DHS for 30%? It cools stupendously. Fire an alpha, use SRMs to cool off, fire another laser burst, more SRMs...

View PostRampage, on 17 June 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:


I do not typically get involved in the Clan vs IS debate. I agree with your early part of the "nerf" timeline up to mid-2016. After that the Clan got just as many and bigger negative adjustments than the IS. So it is not like they have been dodging the nerf hammer until 2017. It started in 2016 and has continued for the last calendar year.

I am not saying the negative adjustments to Clan were not needed for the sake of balance. I am just pointing out that Clan has been taking the brunt of the changes for a year now.


In 2017, yes. Not in 2016. In 2016, they got...cLPL max range reduction and Kodiak nerf, and that's basically it. They did lose some health on small-slot equipment, but I can't tell a difference in-game. They also got a DHS buff.

#183 Dee Eight

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 12:33 PM

Look....tech advance is coming, they needed to adjust the lasers to new values to make the IS ERSL and ERML relevant... along with the clan micro and heavy lasers. Not to mention light, snub and heavy PPCs.

#184 FupDup

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 12:35 PM

View PostDee Eight, on 17 June 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

Look....tech advance is coming, they needed to adjust the lasers to new values to make the IS ERSL and ERML relevant... along with the clan micro and heavy lasers. Not to mention light, snub and heavy PPCs.

The IS ERSL would never be relevant until they decide to give truly significant buffs to the IS SL. Cutting off 0.3 heat from the SL is not going to save the IS ERSL.

#185 Mechwarrior1441491

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 01:04 PM

micro lasers. Why even bother. They cant even get the regular stuff we`ve had for years to work right.

#186 FupDup

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 01:05 PM

View PostMechwarrior1441491, on 17 June 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

micro lasers. Why even bother. They cant even get the regular stuff we`ve had for years to work right.

I would not be surprised if PGI gave the ER Micro Laser a damage per heat ratio similar to that of the IS PPC.

#187 Scout Derek

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 01:05 PM

View PostDee Eight, on 17 June 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

Look....tech advance is coming, they needed to adjust the lasers to new values to make the IS ERSL and ERML relevant... along with the clan micro and heavy lasers. Not to mention light, snub and heavy PPCs.


Then when they finally come out and are broken, we can have all our lazors buffed again amirite?

#188 vibrant

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 01:58 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 17 June 2017 - 08:26 AM, said:

Completely out of sync? You mean 0.16 seconds is out of synch? What have I been doing all my life with my isLPLs having a 0.23 second spread over my isMLs?

Just bringing a little math to the table. Right now, there's a 0.22 second difference in the cycle times between CERML and CLPL. Which is... a 5% difference. After this patch, it'll be a 0.46 second difference, which is a 10% difference. Not earth shattering, but still significant.

Numbers:
Current:
CLPL duration: 1.12, cooldown: 3.25, total: 4.37
CERML duration: 1.15, cooldown: 3, total: 4.17
Difference: 0.22 seconds, 5.04%

New patch:
CLPL duration: 1.09, cooldown: 3.2, total: 4.29
CERML duration: 1.25, cooldown: 3.5, total: 4.75
Difference: 0.46 seconds, 9.69%

Edited by vibrant, 17 June 2017 - 02:00 PM.


#189 HGAK47

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 02:33 PM

So im just looking at my light mechs.... they seem to be losing favour in this game by the week. Slowed some of them down with the agility engine changes, skill tree comes about and we lose some quirks.... now small lasers.

Then they mess about with mechs like the MX90 and others and reduce actual useful quirks for damn random missile quirks? 5V still untouched, other mechs that were left behind with recent changes also left untouched.

Hey dont worry they changed the panther structure quirks to armour! In PGI`s mind anything more would be op clearly... /sarcasm.

Im sorry, this is leaving me feeling a little salty... I will endavour to cleanse myself and come back with a more level head.

Edited by HGAK47, 17 June 2017 - 02:34 PM.


#190 vibrant

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 02:40 PM

View PostHGAK47, on 17 June 2017 - 02:33 PM, said:

So im just looking at my light mechs.... they seem to be losing favour in this game by the week. Slowed some of them down with the agility engine changes, skill tree comes about and we lose some quirks.... now small lasers.

Don't forget the rescale. :D

#191 Bud Crue

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 02:41 PM

All I know about this re-balance, is that for a company that said quirks are the cause of power creep and are terrible because they force players into specific builds in order for the mech in question to be competitive, it seems odd that they just guaranteed that everyone is going to switch whatever build they might have on their Novas back to the 12ERSL build. They may not be forcing players to do this with quirks, but they sure as hell are by making it the best option.

Sigh.

In 4-6 months when they see that that mech is the energy based mech played most in scouting on the Clan side, how much do you want to bet that they give the stupid things a new, but very minor pulse laser quirk?

#192 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 03:08 PM

View Postvibrant, on 17 June 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

Just bringing a little math to the table. Right now, there's a 0.22 second difference in the cycle times between CERML and CLPL. Which is... a 5% difference. After this patch, it'll be a 0.46 second difference, which is a 10% difference. Not earth shattering, but still significant.

Numbers:
Current:
CLPL duration: 1.12, cooldown: 3.25, total: 4.37
CERML duration: 1.15, cooldown: 3, total: 4.17
Difference: 0.22 seconds, 5.04%

New patch:
CLPL duration: 1.09, cooldown: 3.2, total: 4.29
CERML duration: 1.25, cooldown: 3.5, total: 4.75
Difference: 0.46 seconds, 9.69%



There are some factors might not appear that significant from looking at the raw numbers but are massively significant. The duration nerf for the CERML is going to be felt and felt hard because it has a cascade effect that goes beyond the numbers.

1. Damage concentration. It is alot harder to hold your beam on target at 1.25 second than it is 1.1 seconds. That in and of itself is going to mean alot more damage spread or in some cases, less damage overall due to missing. I mean we have all tried to take the legs out from under a light mech so we all know just how hard it is to keep any beam of any duration focused on their legs.

2. Face time - your going to have to keep exposed and on target for 10% longer. That is potentially 10% more damage your going to take when trying to apply full damage to the enemy.

3. Friendly fire - That longer beam duration means that much more time for one your your teammates to run out into your line of fire and take damage from you. Hell I have CERLLs on a few of my Supernovas and it seems I end up triggering the time damage penalty every other fight I engage in due to my idiot teammates running into my beams before their 1.5 duration completes. 1.25 isn't much less, so yeah it is going to happen and happen often.

The point is, it is not just 10% difference because that 10% difference cascades across multiple factors all of which effect the mechs overall performance. Additionally, we aren't talking a weapon that may or may not be used on a mech, we are talking a weapon that is used on virtually all mechs. I mean the medium laser, be it Clan or IS is the most used weapon in the game and therefore any changes to them will have a huge impact on the performance of virtually all mechs.

#193 cazidin

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 03:16 PM

The moral of the story is... replace ML with LPL on Heavy and Assault Clan mechs and basically emulate the Warhawk 4 LPL build?

#194 Mystere

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 03:20 PM

View Postvibrant, on 17 June 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

Just bringing a little math to the table. Right now, there's a 0.22 second difference in the cycle times between CERML and CLPL. Which is... a 5% difference. After this patch, it'll be a 0.46 second difference, which is a 10% difference. Not earth shattering, but still significant.


As someone who has designed and built both pulse and continuous-beam lasers oh so many moons ago, I can say with all conviction that it is not. Posted Image

View PostBud Crue, on 17 June 2017 - 02:41 PM, said:

All I know about this re-balance, is that for a company that said quirks are the cause of power creep and are terrible because they force players into specific builds in order for the mech in question to be competitive, it seems odd that they just guaranteed that everyone is going to switch whatever build they might have on their Novas back to the 12ERSL build. They may not be forcing players to do this with quirks, but they sure as hell are by making it the best option.

Sigh.

In 4-6 months when they see that that mech is the energy based mech played most in scouting on the Clan side, how much do you want to bet that they give the stupid things a new, but very minor pulse laser quirk?


Well, I am so glad I stuck with my 12xERSL Nova all this time through thick or thin. Posted Image

View PostViktor Drake, on 17 June 2017 - 03:08 PM, said:

2. Face time - your going to have to keep exposed and on target for 10% longer. That is potentially 10% more damage your going to take when trying to apply full damage to the enemy.


Well, given PPFLD, that 10% could actually mean living or dying.

#195 Bud Crue

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 03:31 PM

View PostMystere, on 17 June 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

Well, I am so glad I stuck with my 12xERSL Nova all this time through thick or thin. Posted Image


PGI thanks you for your cooperation.

#196 Mystere

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 03:33 PM

View PostBud Crue, on 17 June 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

PGI thanks you for your cooperation.


Cooperation?

LOL no! It's called "foresight". Posted Image

#197 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 04:26 PM

View PostMystere, on 17 June 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

Well, I am so glad I stuck with my 12xERSL Nova all this time through thick or thin. Posted Image

thats what i run, and its never failed me, ;)

#198 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 04:32 PM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 17 June 2017 - 04:26 PM, said:

thats what i run, and its never failed me, Posted Image

but will it have 4x HMGs after July?

View PostMystere, on 17 June 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:


Cooperation?

LOL no! It's called "foresight". Posted Image

tis better to play with foresight than f0reskin, though I suppose one shouldn't judge that kind of thing......

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 June 2017 - 04:34 PM.


#199 Super Trooper

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 04:50 PM

Quick question. How long were these changes play tested on the test server?

Maybe I'm getting spoiled the last year from Blizzard where all changes and new releases are play tested for weeks or more at a time as the changes are tweaked, implemented, or scrapped.

#200 Summon3r

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Posted 17 June 2017 - 04:51 PM

hahahahahhaha classic PGI, well done.........................................





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