90 replies to this topic

[BattleBunny]

Quite a short sighted title to the thread. I look forward to seeing OP counter all the arguments since "all the changes make sense".

Personally I am mostly annoyed by how this kills lights again. Clan lights such as the kitfox hero and the cheetah rely on these short-range lasers to be effective. They have no other good options to fall back on for these chassis. It might make an entire playstyle disappear. A fun , risky and rewarding playstyle, I might add.

PGI seems to really hate lights. First they inflate them, then they make them sluggish, now they take their guns away.

Edited by BattleBunny, 18 June 2017 - 03:43 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

P.G.I have adopted the same game style as wargamming now.

Clearly if the big timers do dumb **** the minnows have to follow their stupidity.

Screw the light pilot whenever possible, is the mantra of game developers.

BTW H.B.S have made light mechs useful in their turn based game.

[Valhallan]

TT had their "value" set in stone for decades because they were using BV, which got changed a bunch if you count the mini-erratas. Yes i would prefer BV (having stumped for it in other threads) but i don't think the current playerbase can survive the necessary growing pain of it so c'est la vie. HBS Lights are also useful because cheap bv, and of course a proper crit system that means even a light plinking your rear can kill you fast if it crits your engines, it also helps that spotting for lrm's is actually a worthwhile endeavor there since all maps are essentially like polar highlands for lrm purposes and there is no cheese UAV for peeking over the hill.

OT: Yes the cerml nerf seems bad, until you realize that every clan energy boat is already getting the 10% duration anyway, so in sum total the cerml is just back to what it was pre-ST which was still good. The cerLL was dumped because of the GH, and also because like the ISerLL it's also really niche outside of a few maps since most don't have the sightlines to take advantage of it. Still doesn't stop those from getting spammed on maps like boreal/polar though.

[oldradagast]

Dee Eight, on 18 June 2017 - 12:07 AM, said:

Play battletech... values set in stone for decades...come to MWO and wonder what crack pipe they were smoking to arrive at the damage/heat values for these lasers... then laugh at all the butthurt players crying when they finally try and re-balance the values closer to the original battletech source material.

I get very tired of people using tabletop as an excuse for messing up MWO. The two games are extremely different, and rightfully so.

In table top, people typically control multiple units, not one unit per game. Additionally, heavier units are simply more powerful than light ones, but they are worth more points so you can't bring as many of them. None of that has anything to do with balancing a game where it is always the same number of units per side and everyone only gets 1 mech per match. In MWO, the balance choices must be made very differently than tabletop since they are vastly different games. Finally, tabletop itself has balance issues; just because it's been around forever doesn't mean it's balance is perfect.

Ugh... it's not unlike the grognards I still run into who think all weapons should have the same firing rate. When I then ask them why anybody would take an AC 2 if it has 1/10 the DPS of an AC 20, all they can say is, "uh, range." yes... because doing nothing at long ranges is sooooo effective. MWO is not tabletop.

As for the changes, some make a bit of sense, but most of them are trash and reek of the dartboard of balance. Lights will get hammered most by this, and they are the least played weight class already. Smart move PGI - really smart.

[Dee Eight]

Robinson Crusher, on 18 June 2017 - 02:40 AM, said:

LRM5s got a nerf... and buffing AMS isn't anti-light; it's anti-missile. This is really going to hurt when the laser AMS comes in and people never run out of ammo.

Laser AMS generates HEAT.... as I recall its based on a small pulse laser... and required several dedicated heat sinks to then be added to deal with that heat unless you wanted to stop firing your offensive weapons while it triggered. You think flamers are bad now... wait until you over heat just from your LAMS triggering.

Edited by Dee Eight, 18 June 2017 - 06:50 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

BattleBunny, on 18 June 2017 - 03:43 AM, said:

Quite a short sighted title to the thread. I look forward to seeing OP counter all the arguments since "all the changes make sense".

Personally I am mostly annoyed by how this kills lights again. Clan lights such as the kitfox hero and the cheetah rely on these short-range lasers to be effective. They have no other good options to fall back on for these chassis. It might make an entire playstyle disappear. A fun , risky and rewarding playstyle, I might add.

PGI seems to really hate lights. First they inflate them, then they make them sluggish, now they take their guns away.

In one month, Micro Pulse Laser, Micro ER Lasers, Heavy Small Lasers, Heavy Medium Lasers and Heavy Large Lasers will be added to the game on the Clan side. ER Small and ER Medium will be added on the IS side. No one can deny that CPL and cerML were too strong. In addition to those needing changes, room had to be made for the new laser editions to have a niche to fill.

The new lasers will fill the gaps that have been created. For example, the cSPL dropped from 6 damage to 4. The cHSL will likely do 6 damage and fill that hole.

All the hyperbole about this Mech of that Mech being dead or this class of Mech being dead is what is really shortsighted. Let's just try looking one month down the road before jumping to those conclusions.

[Zolaz]

If PGI is good at ONE thing ... it is balancing.

[BattleBunny]

Rampage, on 18 June 2017 - 07:10 AM, said:

In one month, Micro Pulse Laser, Micro ER Lasers, Heavy Small Lasers, Heavy Medium Lasers and Heavy Large Lasers will be added to the game on the Clan side. ER Small and ER Medium will be added on the IS side. No one can deny that CPL and cerML were too strong. In addition to those needing changes, room had to be made for the new laser editions to have a niche to fill.

The new lasers will fill the gaps that have been created. For example, the cSPL dropped from 6 damage to 4. The cHSL will likely do 6 damage and fill that hole.

All the hyperbole about this Mech of that Mech being dead or this class of Mech being dead is what is really shortsighted. Let's just try looking one month down the road before jumping to those conclusions.

I said this is another thread: If these changes are ment to go along with the introduction of new weapons, these changes need to be implemented when the new weapons are implemented. Not a month before, creating a needless gap of even deader light mechs and such.

Edited by BattleBunny, 18 June 2017 - 07:31 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

The new lasers will fill the gaps that have been created. For example, the cSPL dropped from 6 damage to 4. The cHSL will likely do 6 damage and fill that hole.

except the heavy lasers' beam durations will have to be absurdly long, otherwise pulse lasers will become completely obsolete.

so no it wont fill that hole. not even close. im fairly certain there wont be a high damage, short beam duration laser at all anymore. those days are gone.

if you thought the CERLL had a ridiculous beam duration, wait till the CHLL, that thing will literally be a lightsaber lol.

Edited by Khobai, 18 June 2017 - 07:43 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Khobai, on 18 June 2017 - 07:34 AM, said:

except the heavy lasers' beam durations will have to be absurdly long, otherwise pulse lasers will become completely obsolete.

so no it wont fill that hole. not even close. im fairly certain there wont be a high damage, short beam duration laser at all anymore. those days are gone.

if you thought the CERLL had a ridiculous beam duration, wait till the CHLL, that thing will literally be a lightsaber lol.

As I said, no one can deny that the cSPL was too strong. It did too much damage with too little downsides. This coming from someone who only plays Clan.

BattleBunny, on 18 June 2017 - 07:31 AM, said:

I said this is another thread: If these changes are ment to go along with the introduction of new weapons, these changes need to be implemented when the new weapons are implemented. Not a month before, creating a needless gap of even deader light mechs and such.

Doing it now gives them a chance to gather one month of data on the effects of these changes without it being skewed by the addition of the new tech.

Edited by Rampage, 18 June 2017 - 07:52 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Dee Eight, on 18 June 2017 - 06:46 AM, said:

Laser AMS generates HEAT.... as I recall its based on a small pulse laser... and required several dedicated heat sinks to then be added to deal with that heat unless you wanted to stop firing your offensive weapons while it triggered. You think flamers are bad now... wait until you over heat just from your LAMS triggering.

That won't happen, for logical reasons

You stop losing dissipation past 90% heat
LAMS generates 0.5 H/s at best, and 0.7 H/s at worst with TT heat values

You'd need 3 isLAMS systems to generate more than 2 H/s (10 TrueDubs) worth of dissipation, which is a 250+ engine without any skills



Yeah...not gonna happen
Unless you're a Cute Fox missing an LT and using HoverJets, I suppose

Edited by Mcgral18, 18 June 2017 - 07:53 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Unless you're a Cute Fox missing an LT and using HoverJets, I suppose

And even then youd have to forego using normal AMS completely. Kitfox builds that already run hot have no reason to run hotter by using laser AMS.

My kitfox will already be running redhot with three heavy medium lasers. So it makes no sense to take LAMS.

Edited by Khobai, 18 June 2017 - 08:07 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

This thread reminds me of clowns...



No, these changes are not okay.

[Brain Cancer]

El Bandito, on 18 June 2017 - 01:49 AM, said:

Even with the AMS buff, it will only be able to destroy 3-4 SRMs at most, out of 24 or more. So there is no worry.

As a side note, it also improved the odds that you'll shoot down a NARC pod if it's passing by/aimed at you.

[Brain Cancer]

Kalleballe, on 18 June 2017 - 03:13 AM, said:

Skill tree was lrm buff with free tonnage "missile rack", less radar dep and ecm nerf. Harassing enemy lrm boats used to be the job of lights. Now that there is only 0-2 light/match we get ams buff instead.

The one real LRM buff was everyone getting a chance to self-buff the weapon by making it's node upgrades pretty much required. Velocity buffs basically reversed the 175->160 nerf, clustering improvements pushed missiles towards wasting an LRM or two less per salvo, and ammo boosts benefit LRM boats most because they're so ammo hungry, they regularly take 6-10 tons of ammo or more. Oh, and you'll pretty much automatically spend SP on those improved decay nodes, too.

Basically, the whole skill tree thing gave us the crumbs of what most of us rocket chuckers hoped we'd see in the weapon itself, and THEN we'd be able to use the skill tree after the base weapon stats were fixed to become a truly decent weapon system.

It's a bit like hoping LB-X's would be good, only the LB-X actually has better stats for use to begin with.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Dee Eight, on 18 June 2017 - 06:46 AM, said:

Laser AMS generates HEAT.... as I recall its based on a small pulse laser... and required several dedicated heat sinks to then be added to deal with that heat unless you wanted to stop firing your offensive weapons while it triggered. You think flamers are bad now... wait until you over heat just from your LAMS triggering.

Yeah I think alot of people aren't really thinking about this. LAMS can easily be a major liability. I mean picture that your in a close brawl and your unleashing hell just to stay alive. Heat is spiking and your on the razor edge. Then a flight of LRMs come by and zap, zap, zap....Shutdown or maybe even BOOM if you had your override engaged. Thing of it is, with LAMS, your not really going to have control over you heat. It is going to trigger when it wants to weather you like it or not. I mean I guess you could micro-manage it by turning it on and off manually but you would have to be pretty damn god-like a player to be effective that way.

[The Pug Commander]

well they where narrowing the DPS across the weapons. That makes sense and seems like a good balancing call to me. They also have to make room for the new weapons. Clan heavy Smalls will the best dps fo smalls so Clan Small pulse needed to be nerfed By the way IS ML on lights should really shine now

Edited by The Pug Commander, 18 June 2017 - 09:41 AM.

[Xmith]

Dee Eight, on 18 June 2017 - 12:21 AM, said:

Given the # of players who still whine as is about devoting 1.5 tons to an AMS installation.... even though on your average game... around just LRMS...they can easily kill 320+ missiles with just one AMS... and that's the equivalent of TEN TONS of standard armor protection...to yourself and the rest of your team.... and folks still won't carry them?! No amount of buffing can correct stupid player behavior.

Not mounting AMS is not being stupid. 90% of the mech I play regularly do not have AMS. It is not needed if you just happen to know how to play this game. I prefer to mount extra heat sinks and .5 of ton ammo instead. Now if you are afraid of LRMs and can't seem to use cover effectively, then in this case AMS could help.

[Deathlike]

CK16, on 17 June 2017 - 10:31 PM, said:

Honestly if I was Chris right now I would just ignore the forums, and especially Reddit for the next 2 to 3 weeks....let the "I hate PGI touching my stuff!" rants calm down then see what the feel is. It is no secert on here meta followers hate change usually, specially nerfs to there metabuilds.

Relax honestly atleast they gave us reasons let's see how they play out.

Your error here is assuming that your scenario hasn't actually played out before (it has, multiple times, in one specific/special case getting a total reversal in changes, like the CERLL 2.0s duration nerf).

It's not hard to predict some changes based on how the weapons behave mechanically (all lasers, including pulse lasers operate the same way, with different damage values, ranges, and duration - so it's not like we're comparing SRMs to Streaks to LRMs).

Unless it's a mechanical change, the changes are very predictable and will cause predictable things to happen at higher levels of play... it'll take 60 to 90 days for people who don't know any better to eventually notice (or not notice at all) the aforementioned changes.

[El Bandito]

LordNothing, on 18 June 2017 - 03:40 AM, said:

it occured to me that the ppc is now going to be the king of the battlefield. as it should be imho. i dont see the half second nerf to the cerppc as being very bad. its actually forcing a degree of free heat management on you by limiting how often you can shoot it. you run into the heat wall before dps really starts to mean anything anyway. its really dependent on how many heat sinks you are boating, i dont see any multi cerppc varient being affected at all by this nerf. it could be up to a couple seconds more before people start to care. is ppc options will also dominate.

CERPPC cooldown nerf was indeed nothing, as the weapon runs real hot, and need time to cool off. If anything, it forced CERPPC and CGauss cooldown closer together.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 June 2017 - 09:46 AM.