154 replies to this topic

[Ssamout]

Jurosik, on 23 June 2017 - 05:25 AM, said:

Not true WDMC EU DivA team had a organised group playing FP yesterday.

I have serious doubts as to how 'organised' that group was. Probably drunken monkeys banging their keyboards.
Also not everyone with a WDMC tag is a EU DivA player.

[justcallme A S H]

Aldodrem, on 28 June 2017 - 07:41 AM, said:

I just started playing FP earlier this week and noticed right away that there was a balance issue but not in the way the OP states. Clans are IMO not in line with IP and it is IS who is on the short end of the stick not IS. For the fun of it I loaded up an IS AS7-S and a Clan DWF-A with the same weapon/heatsink/armour/engine loadout and (no big surprise) the results are tilted.

After 'equalization' the Direwolf had 10 more free tonnage and 16 more free internal slots than the Atlas (not even factoring in the range/firepower advantage) and as you go down in tonnage the disparity increases.

One can only hope that the new IS weapons coming out balance the factions evenly but I doubt it will be enough (even though after release you'll probably have a ton of clan players whining about playing on a more equal field saying that it was TOO MUCH).

So how did you equalise the structure buffs the AS7 has over the DWF?

Or the speed differential due to the locked DWF engine (which free's up tonnage, btw).

Sorry but there are so many flaws to what you are doing because you simply cannot compare them on equal footing. They are two different mechs that are to be played two totally different ways.

That is the problem with MWO players. They think both sides should be "the same". Fact is -they shouldn't. They should be different and played accordingly to their strengths.

Learn their strengths and you'll win more often.

[KHAN ATTAKHAN]

The whole idea behind the tonnage difference and the nerfing and quirking stupidity was bought about by one thing, it was not the mechs or the weapons, it was the population in-balance that occurred when the clans were introduced to the game years ago, almost no-one wanted to be IS. and most all went clan, it was PGI's and I do say this openly very bad and simplistic plan to sour peoples liking and desire to stay clan and try to re-balance the sides, put the clans at a disadvantage and people will go back to I.S. in hope of a population re-balance.
It is a way of re-balancing the population, nothing more, nothing less, stop looking through smoked glass and look at the swing in the population history of the game when a new pack is released for either side, this of course does not apply to loyalists it is the freelancers and mercs that keep the in-balance continuing.

[SmokeGuar]

Lets do a quick math.
Say that Clan range advantage is 100 meters ( far less currently, and none after new weapons ).

Mech moves 72 kph, that is 20 meters per second. 5 seconds. During that time Clan boat can fire once, removing part of oppo armor, and generating lot of heat.
After that IS mech has advantage, in some cases huge armor and structure buffs vs Clan mech having none or little. Any guesses for end result? Ever seen 12 Atlas rush on Emerald? 0 - 12 after first drop and gens down.

On QP maps Clan may, may, be able to use some advantage, if they can keep distance greater than 400 meters. On invasion maps IS short / medium range is giving huge advantage to those who know how to use them ( vet mercs ).

[Grus]

justcallme A S H, on 27 June 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

Look we know you don't understand the game properly... We've been over your ideas if 'balance' before.

IS XL is needed to remain competitive, in most cases, against clan mechs. With a STD you compromise one if the below:
Firepower.
Speed.
Cooling.

It's not the same as LRM at all. By suggesting it is shows great lack of any real clue.

incorrect, banchee with 2ll and 6meds will do just under 60kph and has wonderfully brawling ability with a st eng and 35 single HS. Try again to validate your snowflake ideas.

[justcallme A S H]

Fail to notice the key word in my statement? Or just ignore?

justcallme A S H, on 27 June 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

IS XL is needed to remain competitive, in most cases, against clan mechs. With a STD you compromise one if the below

What you did by picking the Banshee 3M was literally go for the mech on the outer most fringe. It is not the "most cases" mech. Anyone with half an idea is going to realise that.

Show me a GHP or a WHM build that works with STD as I described. You can't, hence you went to the fringe immediatelly. Even the BLR struggles with a STD, it can be done but it's horrifically slow as a result for a 85T mech against Clan mechs which are almost 10km/h faster as a result.

And no, 60kmp/h is not acceptable speed levels for anything under 100T. So that argument carries little weight there either.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 29 June 2017 - 08:55 PM.

[Ruslan Savelyev]

SmokeGuar, on 28 June 2017 - 10:24 AM, said:

Any more powercreep to IS side and IS becomes autowin for FW vets.

KHAN ATTAKHAN, on 28 June 2017 - 11:42 PM, said:

it was PGI's and I do say this openly very bad and simplistic plan to sour peoples liking and desire to stay clan and try to re-balance the sides, put the clans at a disadvantage

I'm not invested enough in FW to contribute a subjective, anecdotal opinion on FW which would be biased towards lore / flavor and against all-weapons-on-one-button meta EBJ-GITGUD 4lyfe, but...

I really can't understand how a person can read through, and in theory comprehend, a set of statistics showing an overwhelming win advantage for the clans, and then post something like this.

Considering tonnage variances is one thing, but the performance of thousands of players in (at least) hundreds of games qualifies as a large enough sample size to confirm that, in fact, Clans are absolutely not at a disadvantage and that Clans are dramatically closer to "autowin" than the IS. When you get the same result over and over and over again, you can't just throw away that result as wrong and instead ego-confirm your own opinion unless you are the President.

[naterist]

Ruslan Savelyev, on 29 June 2017 - 10:12 PM, said:

I'm not invested enough in FW to contribute a subjective, anecdotal opinion on FW which would be biased towards lore / flavor and against all-weapons-on-one-button meta EBJ-GITGUD 4lyfe, but...

I really can't understand how a person can read through, and in theory comprehend, a set of statistics showing an overwhelming win advantage for the clans, and then post something like this.

Considering tonnage variances is one thing, but the performance of thousands of players in (at least) hundreds of games qualifies as a large enough sample size to confirm that, in fact, Clans are absolutely not at a disadvantage and that Clans are dramatically closer to "autowin" than the IS. When you get the same result over and over and over again, you can't just throw away that result as wrong and instead ego-confirm your own opinion unless you are the President.

see what faction comp mechs tend to be if you still dont get it.

[Mechi Messer]

A few things:
1. Clan were clearly at a disadvantage yes. For A short period, when PPC and Wub were overquirked on thuds. For a short period on a few maps when the erll-battlemaster was the longrange-king. That's about it. I play FP since the beginning. I remember quite vividly when Timbis and Crows were easymode. Not for days, not for weeks but several months and no I'm not one of those IS-fanboys. I just happen to play more on IS-side than on clanside. I like both. There were times when balance was pretty close though. Stating that Clans were inferior to IS for most of the time is utter BS crowned with more BS.

2. What is the core of FP? Objectives? Role-Warfare? DPS? Nope. It is as follows: Put as much damage as possible to a single component as fast as possible without getting shanked in the process, or in short: Alphawarrior online.
All this numbercrunching concerning DPS, Structurequirks, etc is rather pointless if the base asumptions are flawed. Nice brainexercises for mathstudents but not that accurate when it comes to balancing. It is comparable to economic models: They are usually undercomplex, explain **** and cause trouble more often than do good (sorry my neoclassical inspired friends).

Now think a bit. Look at alphastrikes. Keep in mind what happens to IS-mech's firepower without XL-engine. Compare. Keep in mind that mechs are not facehugging each other and fire one after the other and keep in mind what happens to an IS-mech with XL which loses a sidetorso.

[FallingAce]

Let's ignore the fact that clans won Tukkayid 2.

Let's ignore the fact that Clan Jade Falcon destroyed the I.S. in phase 3.

Let's ignore the fact that I.S. has won what? 20 phases in 6 months.

Let's ignore the fact that clans won Tukkayid 3.

Let's ignore Russ when he said the clans have 25% more top tier players than the I.S.

Let's ignore Chris Lowrey said clan mechs perform 8% better than I.S. mechs.

"Balance" is better than it's ever been

So P.G.I. please give the clans back their tonnage.

[Ssamout]

FallingAce, on 30 June 2017 - 12:05 AM, said:

Let's ignore Russ when he said the clans have 25% more top tier players than the I.S.

This is enough to tweak results to the clans. Mechs are irrelevant.
During the time when Jade Falcon was dominant they also had overall the best active groups/players dropping. You could solo drop with the Falcons and in every match you team knew what we are doing. Not so on the IS side with all those noobs driving failed STD builds and scattering when clans said boo.

What is missing from any data is the amount of tier 5's on each side. I've seen more tubers growing in IS side than clan since CW started to this FaPping day. .

[Jurosik]

Ssamout, on 28 June 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

I have serious doubts as to how 'organised' that group was. Probably drunken monkeys banging their keyboards.
Also not everyone with a WDMC tag is a EU DivA player.

Acording to your MRBC page coe7 is your teamleader and dropcommander. He was there and the rest was filed with names from your mrbc pilot roster so maybe they were drunken ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

[Ssamout]

Jurosik, on 30 June 2017 - 06:09 AM, said:

Acording to your MRBC page coe7 is your teamleader and dropcommander. He was there and the rest was filed with names from your mrbc pilot roster so maybe they were drunken ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

Yeah, he's the DC alright (not teamleader though, thats AZT). All I'm saying it is really rare to see them dropping in FP, like really rare. Good for you if you managed to meet them..

[Birthright]

FallingAce, on 22 June 2017 - 10:52 PM, said:

May 17 - Jun 23

Smoke Jag +21
Jade Falcon +34
Wolf +30
Ghost Bear +33



Yes, buff the clans.

pointless complain.

80% of those game were uncontested victories aka ghostdrops.

The main reason why clan wins more is because clan has bigger population = more uncontested wins.

[Grus]

justcallme A S H, on 29 June 2017 - 08:55 PM, said:

Fail to notice the key word in my statement? Or just ignore?




What you did by picking the Banshee 3M was literally go for the mech on the outer most fringe. It is not the "most cases" mech. Anyone with half an idea is going to realise that.

Show me a GHP or a WHM build that works with STD as I described. You can't, hence you went to the fringe immediatelly. Even the BLR struggles with a STD, it can be done but it's horrifically slow as a result for a 85T mech against Clan mechs which are almost 10km/h faster as a result.

And no, 60kmp/h is not acceptable speed levels for anything under 100T. So that argument carries little weight there either.

so so slower (not by much) with more durability =bad... ok

ISxl is fragile, faster, lighter so more pew pew.

It sounds like you're trying to make a IS mech better than a clan mech in firepower, speed, heat efficiency.. oh wait you can..

So I'm sorry that you can fire off related alphas just slightly less than me and if I fire more than twice I shut down and IS good a dead. While you run around just as fast, with better armor, structure, and component hp.. spread damage and torso twist. Understand the drawbacks of that eng and adapt. Stop crying about it.

[Grus]

SmokeGuar, on 29 June 2017 - 04:34 AM, said:

Lets do a quick math.
Say that Clan range advantage is 100 meters ( far less currently, and none after new weapons ).

Mech moves 72 kph, that is 20 meters per second. 5 seconds. During that time Clan boat can fire once, removing part of oppo armor, and generating lot of heat.
After that IS mech has advantage, in some cases huge armor and structure buffs vs Clan mech having none or little. Any guesses for end result? Ever seen 12 Atlas rush on Emerald? 0 - 12 after first drop and gens down.

On QP maps Clan may, may, be able to use some advantage, if they can keep distance greater than 400 meters. On invasion maps IS short / medium range is giving huge advantage to those who know how to use them ( vet mercs ).

this. Simply this

Now to take from another post clan drop weight is lower due to high population of top teir pilots. So the "average" pilot gets shafted because theres a crap ton of player in 1 clan? Seems fair..

[FallingAce]

Birthright, on 03 July 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

pointless complain.

80% of those game were uncontested victories aka ghostdrops.

The main reason why clan wins more is because clan has bigger population = more uncontested wins.

What complaint? I took numbers that were readily available to everyone and put them in a format that anyone with half a brain should be able to understand.

I took a screenshot of the leaderboard 1st day of phase 4.2 and compared it to a more recent one(PGI did not reset leaderboard with 4.2)

I told you where i got my numbers from, now tell me where you got that mythical 80% number from.

I will leave you with 2 questions

• Why is the population so unbalanced?
  
• How does buffing the clans make this better?

Edited by FallingAce, 03 July 2017 - 12:22 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Birthright, on 03 July 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

pointless complain.

80% of those game were uncontested victories aka ghostdrops.

The main reason why clan wins more is because clan has bigger population = more uncontested wins.

Ah here we go again...

Proof to back up 80% are ghost drops please.

When we are Clan the Ghost rate is nothing close to 80%, even in Oceanic - and most inactive timezone of all.

[Grus]

Hey Ash I wanna shift our conversation a little bit.

So for the clan side we have less tonnage due to the higher population of upper skilled players vs IS. So why is it that the mid to low tier groups on the clan side are being punished for this by having to drop at the same weight as these upper teir groups? Minus the "get gud" it's like PGI is trying to force out those groups to switch to the IS in my opinion. For the long run of improving said pilot skill level it might be beneficial but if that person wants to stay clan because "shinny" then why should they have a harder hill to climb?

Not saying the weights need to be exact but there needs to be an increse.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Grus....oh man....you are seriously asking for a personal or unit tonnage increase because you aren't so good?? ...c'mon, show some self-respect.

Seriously though...could you imagine if PGI tried (across the board) giving custom tonnages based on performance and perceived skilll level for individuals or units?? Please no Russ...don't unleash this fresh chaos upon us...I will buy another mechpack...I promise.

Edited by Marquis De Lafayette, 13 July 2017 - 12:14 PM.