68 replies to this topic

[Vellron2005]

So, many mechs like the King Crabs, Maulers and Marauder IIC's are being nerfed..

The MAD IIC for example, was the ONLY clan assault with any mobility left after the Skill Tree nerfs.. now, it too will become a slug..

Is this PGI's way of saying "oh, sorry, we forgot that one, so we're nerfing it now"?

Please PGI... stop nerfing the assaults.. they are slow as it is..

[The6thMessenger]

King Crab nerfed?

That armor quirks were a boon! Of course i'd go with mobility quirks, but these would do.

[Ced Riggs]

Something people mentioned over and over again: Rather than nerf all the things, look at the top performers and understand that people are having fun piloting those buckets. The other buckets are not "balanced" and the tops "OP", but the tops are comfortable, enjoyable, and the others are weak/shite/not fun.

Make all mechs great again. Stop killing fun, start making frustrating mechs enjoyable.

[kapusta11]

10.7 acceleration rate is still ok-ish, anything below would be way too slow, but yeah, I agree, it's stupid when 85 ton mech with 350-400 engine is just as slow as Stalker or Mauler with 300.

[Shifty McSwift]

Ced Riggs, on 19 June 2017 - 01:33 AM, said:

Something people mentioned over and over again: Rather than nerf all the things, look at the top performers and understand that people are having fun piloting those buckets. The other buckets are not "balanced" and the tops "OP", but the tops are comfortable, enjoyable, and the others are weak/shite/not fun.

Make all mechs great again. Stop killing fun, start making frustrating mechs enjoyable.

It is relatively fun killing things in one hit and getting an average of 8 kills per game too I am sure, for at least 1 of the 24 players in that game....

[Vellron2005]

I just know that the best mechs before the Skill tree, like the Kodiak and Mauler have become unplayable for me..

The Kodiak is as slow as a direwolf, which is by my standards, also unplayable, and the Marauder IIC and Supernova were the only Assaults, next to the Executioner,that were still fun to play..

Now, all have been nerfed..

The MAD IIC is going the way of the slug, while the Laser-dependand Supernova and Executioner are getting their damage output neutered.. Just my EXE has his SPL damage cut by 30%.. I had 7 SPL which did 42 damage, now only 28.. That's like downsizing from 2 AC20 to only one!

I mean people were saying the Executioner was under-powered before.. I kept defending it, because of that laser gut-punch.. now.. I have no arguments left..

The EXE is officially underpowered..

And when the heavy lasers hit, they are gonna weigh more, and I probably won't be able to get the same damage output for the same heat efficiency.. not to mention that I won't be able to fill all the Exe's arm laser slots and it will look even uglier.. (I hate when there's boxes missing from it's laser arm)

Edited by Vellron2005, 19 June 2017 - 01:48 AM.

[Ced Riggs]

Shifty McSwift, on 19 June 2017 - 01:37 AM, said:

It is relatively fun killing things in one hit and getting an average of 8 kills per game too I am sure, for at least 1 of the 24 players in that game....

If all mechs had a good feel, that'd shift, don't you think?

[Shifty McSwift]

Vellron2005, on 19 June 2017 - 01:44 AM, said:

I just know that the best mechs before the Skill tree, like the Kodiak and Mauler have become unplayable for me..

The Kodiak is as slow as a direwolf, which is by my standards, also unplayable, and the Marauder IIC and Supernova were the only Assaults, next to the Executioner,that were still fun to play..

Now, all have been nerfed..

The MAD IIC is going the way of the slug, while the Laser-dependand Supernova and Executioner are getting their damage output neutered.. Just my EXE has his SPL damage cut by 30%.. I had 7 SPL which did 42 damage, now only 28.. That's like downsizing from 2 AC20 to only one!

I mean people were saying the Executioner was under-powered before.. I kept defending it, because of that laser gut-punch.. now.. I have no arguments left..

The EXE is officially underpowered..

Relativity plays a part here, ignore what you were used to for example and the rates seem pretty standard, barring a few exceptions. EXE has less gun loadout potentials (still some decent ones really) but good mobility rates for its class. The kodiak moves very fast for its size, but has crappy mobility etc etc... As for the direwolf, well it seems to be one of those exceptions I mentioned.

[Kiiyor]

The6thMessenger, on 19 June 2017 - 01:31 AM, said:

King Crab nerfed?

That armor quirks were a boon! Of course i'd go with mobility quirks, but these would do.

Torso twist speed is increased too:

Patch Notes said:

King Crab
The previous Quirks for the King Crab were fairly dated, with its last pass back in April of last year. The introduction of the Skill Tree hasn't benefit the KGC to the same degree as some other 'Mechs, and we felt the need to provide the KGC with a fresh re-work of its Quirks.
• KGC-000/KGC-000 [L], KGC-0000, and KGC-000B/KGC-000B [C]/KGC-000B [S] all receive positive changes to their Torso Turn Speeds. They have also received a reduction to LA/RA Armor Bonus Quirks, but with the addition of new CT/LT/RT Armor Bonus Quirks.
• KGC-000/KGC-000 [L] have lost their Ballistic Velocity Quirks, but have received new Missile Cooldown and LRM Spread Quirks.
• KGC-0000 have received a reduction to its Laser Duration Quirk and the removal of its Energy Cooldown and Missile Cooldown Quirks, but has received new Ballistic Cooldown and Ballistic Velocity Quirks.
• KGC-000B/KGC-000B [C]/KGC-000B [S] have received reductions to their Ballistic Velocity Quirk and the loss of its Energy Range Quirk, but has received new LRM Spread and AC/20 Cooldown Quirks and an increase to its existing Ballistic Cooldown Quirk.

The torso twist speed buffs are great, and as a buff, should (hopefully) increase nicely with the mobility tree - unlike most assaults. Even with the extra armor, it's hitboxes are still garbage, so the extra brawl-ability will be nice if you're going to risk closing with the enemy, especially with enemies like the scorch terrifying their way around the battlefield.

[Shifty McSwift]

Ced Riggs, on 19 June 2017 - 01:49 AM, said:

If all mechs had a good feel, that'd shift, don't you think?

That I think is considered the "anarchic approach" to dealing with balance, as in, just make everything super strong and let it sort itself out. Problem is you end up with things like instakill PPFLD as normalised in a game that is supposed to have longer life functionality with combat tactics around that.

People grow to expect ridiculous results and it skews any kind of "balancing" that you might want to work on, add to that the power creep that comes with a game project like this (in how they can market new items etc), and it would just be a trashy mess by the end of the first year.

[Kmieciu]

Vellron2005, on 19 June 2017 - 01:44 AM, said:

I mean people were saying the Executioner was under-powered before.. I kept defending it, because of that laser gut-punch.. now.. I have no arguments left..

The EXE is officially underpowered..

8xMPL will be the new go-to build.
More damage per heat than C-LPLs ever had.

[xengk]

Kiiyor, on 19 June 2017 - 01:53 AM, said:

The torso twist speed buffs are great, and as a buff, should (hopefully) increase nicely with the mobility tree - unlike most assaults. Even with the extra armor, it's hitboxes are still garbage, so the extra brawl-ability will be nice if you're going to risk closing with the enemy, especially with enemies like the scorch terrifying their way around the battlefield.

I am rather happy for the improve torso twist and moving the armour quirks from arms to torso.
The arm are too low to block most attack, now the KG can roll damage on torso better, probably mean the arms will stay on longer.

Removable of ballistic quirk is understandable too.
KG-000 have 6 ballistic slot, and having ballistic quirks simply discourage built variety on them.
Missile cooldown can encourage SRM/SSRM, something alot of dakka king crab lacks; point defense vs lights or rush.

[DGTLDaemon]

I still don't quite understand the reasons for the Marauder IIC nerf. Before the last patch, I used to run two primary loadouts: MAD-IIC with 2xLPL+5xERML+TCOMP1 and MAD-IIC-A with 2xUAC10+4xERML. At the same time, a Timber Wolf or an Ebon Jaguar can run 2xLPL+4xERML+TCOMP1 or 2xUAC10+3xERML. So an 85-ton mech gets exactly 1 more ERML compared to mechs that are 10-20 tons lighter. What's so scary about it? Did that one extra ERML really make my Marauders OP AF? And, of course, I know the answer to that question. Some maniac came up with the idea of putting 2xLPL+6xERML on the MAD-IIC, PGI got scared of the stupid alpha that thing can produce (although that build is definitely not sustainable, not with that kind of heat), and now they are nerfing the entire chassis into the ground. Classic PGI approach, tested and proven since the KDK-3 days.

[Athom83]

kapusta11, on 19 June 2017 - 01:35 AM, said:

10.7 acceleration rate is still ok-ish, anything below would be way too slow, but yeah, I agree, it's stupid when 85 ton mech with 350-400 engine is just as slow as Stalker or Mauler with 300.

Marauder IIC speed with 400; 76.2
Stalker speed with 300; 57.2

Hm... one of those things is not like the other. Hint; The 85 ton mech with a 400 is not slower.

[Ced Riggs]

Athom83, on 19 June 2017 - 04:16 AM, said:

Marauder IIC speed with 400; 76.2
Stalker speed with 300; 57.2

Hm... one of those things is not like the other. Hint; The 85 ton mech with a 400 is not slower.

Base Agility:

15.41 - Awesome (all except Pretty Baby), Stalker (3FB), Supernova (1)
13.11 - Stalker (all except 3FB), Banshee (3S), Night Gyr (all), NEW: Marauder-IIC (MAD-IIC-8), Supernova (3, A)
10.79 - NEW: Marauder-IIC (all but MAD-IIC-8) Mauler (all), Atlas (Boar's Head), Supernova (B, Boiler, C)

The Stalker will be more agile, accelerate better, turn better, twist better. The Stalker-3FB will eclipse Marauders by an almost 50% better handling profile, with only the underwhelming Maddy Two-Cee 8, the preorder bonus mech, being on par with other Stalkers.

Edited by Ced Riggs, 19 June 2017 - 04:23 AM.

[Athom83]

Ced Riggs, on 19 June 2017 - 04:23 AM, said:

Base Agility:

15.41 - Awesome (all except Pretty Baby), Stalker (3FB), Supernova (1)
13.11 - Stalker (all except 3FB), Banshee (3S), Night Gyr (all), NEW: Marauder-IIC (MAD-IIC-8), Supernova (3, A)
10.79 - NEW: Marauder-IIC (all but MAD-IIC-8) Mauler (all), Atlas (Boar's Head), Supernova (B, Boiler, C)

The Stalker will be more agile, accelerate better, turn better, twist better. The Stalker-3FB will eclipse Marauders by an almost 50% better handling profile, with only the underwhelming Maddy Two-Cee 8, the preorder bonus mech, being on par with other Stalkers.

Once again you, and others, are confusing SPEED with MOBILITY. He said that the MAD-IIC with a 350-400 engine was SLOWER than a Stalker/Mauler with a 300 engine, a measurement of relative SPEED, which was false. Yes, the Stalker/Mauler has a tiny improvement in mobility over the MAD-IIC now. However, what can they do that Marauder IIC can't? LRM boat, and AC/2 boat. That's it. MAD-IIC is flat out better because Clan space magic. The only reasons you see Stalkers or Maulers anymore is because of LRMin or 4 UAC/5 or 6 AC/2 builds.

Edited by Athom83, 19 June 2017 - 04:46 AM.

[Alan Davion]

Ced Riggs, on 19 June 2017 - 01:33 AM, said:

Something people mentioned over and over again: Rather than nerf all the things, look at the top performers and understand that people are having fun piloting those buckets. The other buckets are not "balanced" and the tops "OP", but the tops are comfortable, enjoyable, and the others are weak/shite/not fun.

Make all mechs great again. Stop killing fun, start making frustrating mechs enjoyable.

The only fly in the ointment of your otherwise flawless logic is, unfortunately, PGI going to PGI.

What you propose makes actual, logical, simple sense.

Something that PGI has constantly and consistently demonstrated over the years that they are incapable of comprehending.

[HGAK47]

Heavy mechs online boys. Lights are somewhere buried in the ground, now they plan on dumping assaults in there too.
Medium mechs you are next so watch out!

Seriously I dont mind changes, thats part of life but the haphazard aproach they have taken over the last few months has really made me lose a lot of confidence in them and the game.

Its actualy quite the joke for anyone who cares to look at the "merits" of their "balancing" operation.

[kapusta11]

Athom83, on 19 June 2017 - 04:46 AM, said:

Once again you, and others, are confusing SPEED with MOBILITY. He said that the MAD-IIC with a 350-400 engine was SLOWER than a Stalker/Mauler with a 300 engine, a measurement of relative SPEED, which was false. Yes, the Stalker/Mauler has a tiny improvement in mobility over the MAD-IIC now. However, what can they do that Marauder IIC can't? LRM boat, and AC/2 boat. That's it. MAD-IIC is flat out better because Clan space magic. The only reasons you see Stalkers or Maulers anymore is because of LRMin or 4 UAC/5 or 6 AC/2 builds.

Maybe we should fix clan space magic then. MAD IIC's speed is not the (main) reason why it's one of the best assaults.

Giving clan mechs worse mobility sets a dangerous precedent. Will Mad Cat MKII have mobility of a 100 ton mech? Will 80t WHM IIC with 350-400 engine be just as slow too? PGI are basically saying: "You can keep your OP mechs, we'll just rise skill ceiling in regards to mech positioning so that only good players can stomp and bads are left to suffer." Just balance the goddamn tech.

Edited by kapusta11, 19 June 2017 - 05:14 AM.

[Alan Davion]

kapusta11, on 19 June 2017 - 05:13 AM, said:

Just balance the goddamn tech.

I think you and I know that's an impossible task. The only way to balance the tech is to force games to be either IS vs IS or Clan vs Clan.

IS vs Clan is never going to have any semblance of balance.