465 replies to this topic

[Mycroft000]

Some fault lies at the feet of the new player, sure, I clicked right through that warning and went in mostly blind.

But I would say PGI clearly holds most of the responsibility here because that basic tutorial doesn't address faction play in any way at all. It barely addresses piloting a mech let alone actual techniques and strategies involved in gameplay.

Admittedly this was extremely naive of me, but as a player who was new to MWO but a veteran to other Mechwarrior and Battletech games, why would I waste a moment on quick play when what I really want is the immersive experience of a faction based Mechwarrior game with depth to the factions and some level of RPG included as well? As I said extremely naive. And I'm going to continue to display this nativity by hoping that someone at PGI will take notice of ideas that could help improve the new player experience and the game as a whole.

I don't think I started actively reading/participating on the forums until after I joined my unit; I can't be sure, my google skills are failing me this morning after four and a half hours of sleep. And looking at my forum profile it shows me as a member since 02/06/2012 which I'm assuming means that's when I signed up for a mailing list, but that's all a tangent; I don't think there is anything in game that really points people to the forum is there? If there is then I'm simply unobservant and my argument is null and void.

But to your metaphor, I feel like the lack of support given to new players is akin to dropping them into the cockpit and being told "You've gone swimming before, here's a competitive race, you shouldn't compete here but we're going to let you do it anyway because we can't be bothered to put limits in place or give you any kind of prep besides this five sentence warning".

At minimum, that warning should pop up every time a new player enters the faction play tab unless they have a fully stocked drop deck, or have joined a unit, or have clicked a "Do not show again" option on it. Then at least it's requiring some action on their part to consciously ignore the warning.

[MischiefSC]

sub2000, on 07 July 2017 - 12:17 AM, said:

Stand corrected.
Was killed in a ship a number of times, and during last event participated in spawn killing (EZ mode against IS pugs).

The point is you are clueless about people you fight against.
20-50%(depending on a time of the drop) of the IS pug team (and around 10% in clan) are mechbay tourists. do call of arms week long and just listen what your teammates say. Most of them are quite frank, just like they are quite frank about not being interested in winning. They keep Rambo/hero style not because they are "ramboes" (most of them are quite timid in QP mode, many of them are quite good teammates actually) but because they want to get their kill assists (loyalty points) and grind their 100 loyalty points per match. The rest can and often go Rambo because 8vs12 is hardcore even in QP mode. It is not interesting.
People don't do TS or group queue not because "they want to stay bad" but because they are not interested in socializing, adjusting their play style to the DC requests, or simply afraid to commit their time to group. Nobody of them is interested in your advises, those who want something ask in general section, hang on faction TS etc. sites or just follow metamech. The rest want to have fun. Play a game.
Do you want to make FW a team mode. Demand it. Make FW a group queue where both teams should be groups from the start.

Those people are irrelevant to FW. FW was never meant for them, what they are doing is comparable to someone sync-dropping in QP to grind cbills/XP faster. Technically it's possible but it's against the stated purpose of the mode, they're just screwing the other 23 people in every match they play so they can get an extra reward.

That sort of player is not, never was and should never be the players or community FW should be aiming at. One big problem we've always had is that the units and teams that filled CW1 and part of CW2 left because the content, depth and purpose PGI promised for FW never showed up and so left. That's the people FW was designed for and needs to get back.

The people you're describing want to show up, put in the minimum possible effort, screw their own team and everyone else in the game and still get a reward. This thread is about how those people are bitching that they want it easier to put in their minimum possible effort and still get extra rewards over QP. **** those guys.

Players like that are poison in the well. They're exactly what everyone ******* about in QP, they're why those of us who used to pug all the time in FW (I used to pug 95% of my FW matches, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of them) simply won't do it anymore and those who don't play with a unit that can field at least 8 just don't play FW anymore.

If you could waive a magic wand and get all the 'screw everyone else, I'm going to play badly, shaft my team and derp my way through FW to grind some mechbays' players to quit FW would be a better game and would likely get BACK some of the people it lost.

As someone who's played FW since day 1 of release and who used to pug constantly I can say those players have had a significant negative impact on FW vastly greater than good teams who win a lot have.

[Jeff on a Buffalo]

Not sure how much "hand-holding" PGI should be doing for FW. I think the intent was to make this mode more of a challenge and to make it true 12-man team game mode (atleast compared to quick play) hence the warning pop-up when one first attempts the FW mode. The units are there if one wants to group up for FW, there is in game VoIP and chat and the command wheel if one wants to coordinate between team mates, not sure what more PGI should be doing wrt that aspect of it. If bad playing pugs are going to show up in this mode then those particular players will figure out quickly this mode is not for them based on the scores they get. They will either give up, get better, find a unit to coordinate better with, or they will continue pugging badly in FW. Maybe I will figure that out eventually for myself but I am not a very good learner. Maybe I can learn from Cheekiez on how he does it.....

[Xannatharr]

Pat Kell, on 06 July 2017 - 11:08 PM, said:

Ok, going to warn you all that this is going to be a long post so feel free to ignore it if you like but I had part of a private conversation I had with Mycroft posted here ......

I wish I could "Like" this post more than once!

Xann

[Xannatharr]

sub2000, on 07 July 2017 - 12:17 AM, said:

Do you want to make FW a team mode. Demand it. Make FW a group queue where both teams should be groups from the start.

If we had the population for that it would be great. Although I am sure that the people who want to solo-queue (for whatever reason) would take issue with it.

Xann

[Mycroft000]

Jeff on a Buffalo, on 07 July 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

Not sure how much "hand-holding" PGI should be doing for FW. I think the intent was to make this mode more of a challenge and to make it true 12-man team game mode (atleast compared to quick play) hence the warning pop-up when one first attempts the FW mode. The units are there if one wants to group up for FW, there is in game VoIP and chat and the command wheel if one wants to coordinate between team mates, not sure what more PGI should be doing wrt that aspect of it. If bad playing pugs are going to show up in this mode then those particular players will figure out quickly this mode is not for them based on the scores they get. They will either give up, get better, find a unit to coordinate better with, or they will continue pugging badly in FW. Maybe I will figure that out eventually for myself but I am not a very good learner. Maybe I can learn from Cheekiez on how he does it.....

Basic instruction shouldn't be considered handholding: shooting the generators instead of the gates, shooting through the window on O-Gens instead of shooting the building, and shooting the generator on the back of the orbital canon(all completely unintuitive mechanics, especially if you're used to older Mechwarrior games).

Yes, units exist in the game, but there is no worthwhile interface to allow for recruiting. And the requirement for loyalists to have to wait out the desertion period before being able to join a unit is a roadblock to recruiting, so is the requirement of single man units to wait out their contracts before joining a unit who is currently contracted with the same faction. The tax for inviting people to the unit is also a roadblock for some, and there are more impediments that make it difficult to find new people to invite than there are tools that make it easy for new players and units to find each other.

I don't think implementing a good in game communication system should be considered hand holding either. How about messages that don't disappear when you haven't read someones message to you before you log off? What about simply being able to send offline messages to people? What about a global chat system where you're able to have a general chat instead of being locked into a specific faction chat or the Clan/IS chat tab? Are those considered handholding?

[justcallme A S H]

Does anyone know if Pat has actually gone to bed?

It's like he's been replying for 24hrs now, given I know he "one finger types", these posts must be taking hours.

[November Juliet]

Here is me agreeing with all the beta male antifa boys who whine about Faction play. In case I'm not being clear enough grow a set.

[Pat Kell]

justcallme A S H, on 07 July 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

Does anyone know if Pat has actually gone to bed?

It's like he's been replying for 24hrs now, given I know he "one finger types", these posts must be taking hours.

Yes I went to bed. Stayed up way past my bedtime though.

"One finger typing"...dude, there are so many things I want to say to that but I think I would get perma banned.

[justcallme A S H]

hahaha I know that feeling

[50 50]

LORD ORION, on 07 July 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

Spawn camping occurs when you are bad.
Join a team or GTFO.

Thank you for your useful, insightful and helpful post.

Now go buy a mech pack.

[Jeff on a Buffalo]

mycroft000, I was not referring to VoIP, chat and the command wheel as hand holding per se, I was just saying that PGI has provided the tools for a group to be able to work together as they see fit. Some use them, some don't. As per your comments that PGI could provide some Academy lessons on various aspects of FW, yeah, I guess they could. Maybe even a YouTube video or something I suppose.
Community wise I assume that is the intent of PGI having this website, admidately it is not integrated that well into the game UI. Between the webpage and Twitch and YouTube and Redditt I got everything I need to learn about this game.
Cheers.

Edited by Jeff on a Buffalo, 07 July 2017 - 06:33 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Just stop.. If Faction, aka Community Warfare had approached what PGI had originally presented, FP would not be a decomposing corpse acting like it is the Walking Dead.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 07 July 2017 - 07:28 PM.

[Mycroft000]

Jeff on a Buffalo, on 07 July 2017 - 05:40 PM, said:

mycroft000, I was not referring to VoIP, chat and the command wheel as hand holding per se, I was just saying that PGI has provided the tools for a group to be able to work together as they see fit. Some use them, some don't. As per your comments that PGI could provide some Academy lessons on various aspects of FW, yeah, I guess they could. Maybe even a YouTube video or something I suppose.
Community wise I assume that is the intent of PGI having this website, admidately it is not integrated that well into the game UI. Between the webpage and Twitch and YouTube and Redditt I got everything I need to learn about this game.
Cheers.

I don't consider any of those to be hand holding either, but it would be nice to see the bare minimum in direction from the people who have designed and implemented a game mode that has a high barrier for entry. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Commander A9, on 07 July 2017 - 06:51 PM, said:

Spawn-camping will stop...when you stop your enemy from successfully plowing through your weak-*** line to get to your drop zone.

I actually don't remember when the last time I've been spawn camped(likely during Tukayyid if it's happened recently), but I've said over and over, that I'm not looking to stop it from happening to me, or other organized units. I'm speaking on behalf of new players(and as a result for pugs in general since that's where the new players in FP end up dropping).

Edit:

P.S. Absolutely all of this pales in comparison to desperately needed features like friends lists that actually show who's online and who's not, along with piles and piles of other "Quality of life" issues that seem to take so long to get addressed as well.

Edited by mycroft000, 07 July 2017 - 08:39 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Tarl Cabot, on 07 July 2017 - 07:27 PM, said:

Just stop.. If Faction, aka Community Warfare had approached what PGI had originally presented, FP would not be a decomposing corpse acting like it is the Walking Dead.

It hurts to watch that.

I was so hopeful and excited. We all were. I remember how passionate everyone was - I know there were hundreds and hundreds of people just in the Davion faction TS, almost all unit members. There were thousands of players in hundreds of units playing.

Then we realized that none of that really was in. It was just new maps/modes and a leaderboard in the shape of an irrelevant map. Winning worlds meant nothing, none of it impacted anything. Loyalist was vastly inferior to merc. Tiny changes happened at a glacial pace, then ignored for a year, then Long Tom was put in and left like 9 months. Also faction membership made even less relevant, so tons more just left.

If FW was a child the state would have taken it away from PGI long ago. For those of us who really enjoy teamwork gameplay and the tactics inherent to FW it's still more fun than QP (slapping angry scorpions off a cactus with my nut sack is more fun than QP, to be fair) but it's not what we were sold originally. Not even a shadow, PGI seems to know that and at this point would be happiest if we all just pretended it didn't happen and pre-paid for Solaris.

[Grus]

I've been touched in my no no place before from Pat Kell, legs were gone before the dropships stopped.. dropped solo late at night because nothing else was going on(atlest a 10min wiat). It happened, on to the next match.

Edit auto correct

Edited by Grus, 08 July 2017 - 11:14 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Wow. 9 pages.

Look, it's real simple. Don't expect PGI to put any effort into FW for MONTHS if ever. They've already got stuff scheduled out, planned ahead and announced. They'll be hard pressed to deliver on what they've already promised in the first place. Anyone who's been around for more than 30 minutes should have figured that out by now.

That means you got two choices. Either learn to deal with it, one way or the other, or stop playing FW altogether. If you're someone that is getting spawn camped over and over, odds are you're actually contributing to the problem. Nobody will miss you while you're gone. Go derp it up in Quick Play. Nobody will care over there, either.

[Vellron2005]

This problem can be easily solved by adjusting the terrain on some maps, mostly Tourmaline Desert and Alpine peaks, where this is still a thing..

On those maps, it is possible for the attacking team to climb up to high positions outside of the spawn, but higher than the walls, and shoot long range weapons into the spawn, without being shot by the dropship.

On all other maps, spawn camping still happens, but the campers have the dropship to shoot them if they get into the spawn itself.. and that's ok. But on those two maps, they attack without penalty, and that needs to be fixed.

I don't think lowering two hills on two maps would be a huge costly dev problem..

[Commander A9]

But isn't the exact opposite also irrelevant?

On Emerald Taiga, the defenders spawn at the top of a high hill...and attacking teams regularly storm up the hill and eradicate any defenders who stick around in their drop zones...

Hell, I just did that a week or so ago on Alpine Peaks in similar circumstances...I haven't observed terrain being a mitigating factor to curb this from happening...

Meanwhile, are we trying to curb this behavior for the sake of the new players, or are we trying to curb it because it's believed to be a game-breaking circumstance?

Edited by Commander A9, 10 July 2017 - 03:48 PM.

[50 50]

With a lack of other objectives, or meaningful objectives, the drop zones become the objective.
Without a mechanism in place to allow the drop zone to be captured we end up with players being dropped into those zones and farmed and also prevent the attackers from being able to stop the drops appropriate to the situation.
Without the ability to select other locations as a drop zone we do not have ways to evolve new tactics and counter attacks and create new dynamics in the mode.

By allowing the drop zones to be captured we add multiple rewardable objectives, particularly in modes such as skirmish, and allow the battle to shift and change within the scenario, enable a team to force the enemy out through territory control and stop spawn camping by denying drops in a zone that has been overrun.