70 replies to this topic

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

SpiralFace, on 24 June 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

Why go with a 390 engine? I never get the blind adherance to the need to always stick with max engine. Going down to a 300 or 325 engine still gets you plenty of tonnage to play around with payloads.

In an 80 tonner, going above an XL 350 is often a liability.

[Ced Riggs]

Escef, on 26 June 2017 - 02:46 AM, said:

What blows my mind about the people saying how bad the Zeus is that my highest damage dealt match was just in a Zeus.

Anecdotes hold little value for objective analysis.

[Duke Nedo]

It used to be in a pretty good spot before the rescale and nerfs... now the 5S is kind of OK, though still worse than Victors. At the very least, all variants need the same structure as the 5S... and then some more most likely.

[Lightfoot]

Escef, on 26 June 2017 - 02:46 AM, said:

What blows my mind about the people saying how bad the Zeus is that my highest damage dealt match was just in a Zeus. 1307. It wasn't even a fancy build (LRM15, AC10, 4*ML, 375XL). And overall, the Zeus's have been good to me.

That's not a Zeus. That's a 60-65 ton mech load-out. Swap the 4*ML's for 2*PPC's, make it run cool (canon Zeus has the Advanced Cooling Quirk, yes quirks are canon), that's the minimum for Assault level damage. That one needs to make the Zeus into a glorified Medium mech with a 375XL to make it work shows it's too weak for an Assault. Assaults should be assault capable or it falls outside the PUG balancing, I think. I often see one team get all 100 ton mechs and the other no 100 ton mechs so I think the PUG cue only looks at Class.

Edited by Lightfoot, 26 June 2017 - 04:53 AM.

[Navid A1]

I only see knee-jerk balancing and percentage based fail nodes

[Roadbuster]

Why would you put an XL engine in any assault mech?
They are too easy to hit and too slow.
You get more out of them if they can take some damage and use a destroyed side to tank.

That's my opinion.

[Skanderborg]

Escef, on 24 June 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

I find it interesting that the OP used a properly skilled up Dragon against a poorly skilled up Zeus.

Unskilled, the Dragon has better armored side torsos and a more robust AC arm than the Zeus. The arm has a 10 point armor and 4 point structure edge over the Zeus; the side torsos have 4 points of armor over the Zeus, but 23 points less structure.

Now, with skills I don't imagine the Zeus's arm to catch up with Dragon's; far from it, I expect a wider disparity. However, I do NOT expect the Dragon side torsos to catch up with the Zeus's total toughness (someone that runs the numbers on both mechs may or may not prove me wrong on this). Furthermore, the 4 point edge the Zeus has over the Dragon on CT armor will likely evaporate with proper use of the Survival tree skills, but I doubt the Dragon will catch up on the 15 point lead the Zeus has in structure.

The biggest difference comes in choice of engine and total payload. Just as an example, with a slightly smaller engine than the OP used, the Zeus can carry significantly more heat sinks with a comparable weapons load, giving it comparable survivability to the Dragon with a much more robust RoF.

Do I think the Dragon is over-quirked? Yes, slightly. But the Dragon still has worse hitboxes than the Zeus, and its missile hard point placement maxes at 2xSRM4, SRM6, ASRM4, ALRM5, or LRM10 (or 2xSSRM4 or an MRM10 post time jump); while the Zeus's single hard point can mount up to an ASRM6 or ALRM20 (or SSRM6 or MRM40 post time jump). Furthermore, the Zeus has 2 more energy hard points. If you build to the Zeus's strengths it will perform at least as well as a Dragon.

You have some really good points , but just remember the Zeus has 15 tons on the Dragon and is an assault. While were at it , compare the CTF to other assaults and you will find the CTF might as well be a 95 tonner.

[Karl Streiger]

Yellonet, on 24 June 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

No explanation needed I hope.

why did you make the Dragon bad? A 305XL are you nuts? This is almost as bad as Russ demoing the HunchIIC with a 205XL.

[JC Daxion]

SpiralFace, on 24 June 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

Why go with a 390 engine? I never get the blind adherance to the need to always stick with max engine. Going down to a 300 or 325 engine still gets you plenty of tonnage to play around with payloads.

Yes, this is my exact thought, Wasting so much weight on a engine. No wonder that build is not working

[P10k56]

Why people use all this ac5s?
Bullets are too slow for reasonable sniping and ammo goes off to fast for my taste.
One must be extremely precise to not run out of ammunition.
One ac 10 is better + all that weight saving specially on fast mechs.

[Escef]

Ced Riggs, on 26 June 2017 - 03:00 AM, said:

Anecdotes hold little value for objective analysis.

I already did objective analysis earlier. I just find it amazing that I can make the Zeus work while so many other folks apparently just can't. My anecdote is just there to put my amazement in context.

Lightfoot, on 26 June 2017 - 04:52 AM, said:

That's not a Zeus. That's a 60-65 ton mech load-out. Swap the 4*ML's for 2*PPC's, make it run cool (canon Zeus has the Advanced Cooling Quirk, yes quirks are canon), that's the minimum for Assault level damage. That one needs to make the Zeus into a glorified Medium mech with a 375XL to make it work shows it's too weak for an Assault. Assaults should be assault capable or it falls outside the PUG balancing, I think. I often see one team get all 100 ton mechs and the other no 100 ton mechs so I think the PUG cue only looks at Class.

Wait, wait, wait... swapping out the 4xML, which deal a total of 20 damage, for a pair of PPCs, which do 20 damage, will improve the firepower? Did you fail basic math?

Roadbuster, on 26 June 2017 - 05:39 AM, said:

Why would you put an XL engine in any assault mech?
They are too easy to hit and too slow.
You get more out of them if they can take some damage and use a destroyed side to tank.

That's my opinion.

Never underestimate the value of a super-heavy skirmisher. I've been running 400XL Battlemasters to good effect since shortly after Project Phoenix hit. It's a weird niche, but if you play it right, it works. Note, however, that while it works in the quickplay formats, I'd never run it in FW, where the staying power of standard engines is much more important.

Edited by Escef, 26 June 2017 - 08:17 AM.

[Roadbuster]

Escef, on 26 June 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

Never underestimate the value of a super-heavy skirmisher. I've been running 400XL Battlemasters to good effect since shortly after Project Phoenix hit. It's a weird niche, but if you play it right, it works. Note, however, that while it works in the quickplay formats, I'd never run it in FW, where the staying power of standard engines is much more important.

I know what you mean, and I fully agree that there are a few exceptions where XL can be an option that works.
The biggest problem I see, is the focus on big alpha strikes, which make XL on assaults very risky.

[Escef]

Roadbuster, on 26 June 2017 - 08:30 AM, said:

The biggest problem I see, is the focus on big alpha strikes, which make XL on assaults very risky.

Most alphas max around 50 or so, most XL assaults can survive two such alphas to a single side torso. If you get focused down by 3 heavy+ mechs, yeah, you die fast, but so will a standard engine mech. But running it skirmisher style you keep moving, which helps to maximize damage spread from lasers and Clan ACs. Yes, it is not without risk, but if you are unwilling to risk than you are unworthy of reward.

[Kubernetes]

Roadbuster, on 26 June 2017 - 05:39 AM, said:

Why would you put an XL engine in any assault mech?
They are too easy to hit and too slow.
You get more out of them if they can take some damage and use a destroyed side to tank.

That's my opinion.

Because it's 80 tons and an "Assault" in name only. If you try to tank at the front in a Zeus you're gonna die super fast, because regardless of the structure quirks it's still only 80 tons. I run my Zeus like an oversized Warhammer: it packs an XL, runs 75+ (some builds go 80+), and can move around quickly for midrange pokes. In FW especially it stomps all over the Clan heavies that I normally face.

[Ryllen Kriel]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 June 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

Let's also not forget how the Dragon has such singularly bad geometry and thus hitboxes that it basically needs that in this era of Uber Alphas to be remotely viable. Not saying the Zeus doesn't need love, just saying people overlook Hitboxes, Firepower, etc way too much in these little comparos.

I never felt confident riding into battle with a Dragon mech. It looks like a giant pregnant cyborg with a sawed off shotgun arm. That centre torso is the biggest target in the world. Unless your back was facing the enemy, all the torso twisting in the world couldn't save me. Peeking around corners was all I ever did and so the mech became very stale for me very quickly. In a way, with the huge torso design I can see the justification for the massive armour buffs, it's similar to the buffs in a Hunchback' s right shoulder. I'm not sure it should out-armour an 80 ton mech however. At least the Zeus is capable of more firepower.

[Lightfoot]

Escef, on 26 June 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

Wait, wait, wait... swapping out the 4xML, which deal a total of 20 damage, for a pair of PPCs, which do 20 damage, will improve the firepower? Did you fail basic math?

Zeus is primarily a mid to long range mech, and in MWO range allows you to spread damage. The drawback to the 4x MLAS is you are going to take a lot of damage before you can fire them at 270 meters and the mech you face might actually have a true brawler loadout. 2 PPCs can do decent damage to 700 meters, more if you have range skills. The most I would build to short range with a Zeus is some SRM4's as a back-up for an enemy with 4xMLAS.

Since the new Skill Tree the Zeus can't turn with a Light mech, even with full mobility skills the Lights just sit on your six with their super-dooper quad machine guns so more reason to not have to go to 270 meters to shoot medium lasers.

So I beat your basic math with tactics.

I think what we are talking about is the Zeus doesn't measure up to the other Assaults due to weapon nerfs applied to keep true assaults from one-shotting everything. If all the weapons worked like canon BattleTech, the Zeus would compete much better with it's limited hardpoints, but they don't work as described in BattleTech.

It doesn't matter to me, there are plenty of working mechs. Zeus will be forgotten to prepare for Nightstar.

[oldradagast]

Heck, at least the Zeus still has some durability quirks (I think)... look at the supposedly "tough" Awesomes in Lore vs this game to see a real example of fail.

[Lightfoot]

The Awesomes all have great structure quirks as well as great weapon quirks. I think for the Awesome it's just the weird shape it has in MWO. Usually the Awesome is depicted as much less broad and wide. More giant robot-like usually.

Zeus I guess needs some of the Awesome's weapon quirks? Zeus has weird weak hardpoints. Can any even carry an AC20?

[Escef]

Lightfoot, on 26 June 2017 - 02:33 PM, said:

So I beat your basic math with tactics.

So, lemme see if I understand this correctly... Your winning tactic is to assume I YOLO rush through open terrain with no cover to use medium lasers while you shoot PPCs? If you say so. No wonder why people like you can't make the Zeus work, you don't understand how to play builds that aren't part of the mid to long range hidey-pokey meta.

[LordMelvin]

sycocys, on 24 June 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

I have to say that the 6S was probably my least favorite of all the Zues models, this was the only way I could get it to work reasonably well for myself. 4 LPL, SRM6/A, XL375. Don't think I ran ballistics on any of them, they just didn't feel like they could run them as well as even some of the medium mechs.

I put UAC5/AC5/3ML/LL on my 6S. Works reasonably well as a dakka mech if you don't jam the crap out of the ultra. With an XL 385 and some mobility points it moves really well and has a dead arm for shielding. Once LFEs come out I'll probably have to drop the speed a bit but having an entire dead side will greatly improve its survivability I think.