255 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

All I will add is that LFE should not have as much penalties as CXL. Even an idiot can see that the CXL is straight up superior than LFE in that case, which doesnt help balance.

[Snowbluff]

El Bandito, on 01 July 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

All I will add is that LFE should not have as much penalties as CXL. Even an idiot can see that the CXL is straight up superior than LFE in that case, which doesnt help balance.

It certainly helps balance, but I don't think it should be penalized as much.

[Luminis]

Just wanted to say that the whole "obsoletes the STD engine" argument is flawed. The CXL obsoletes the CSTD in as well, only exception being crit slot concerns, which also work for the IS STD. Nobody cares about the CSTD being nearly useless, so why is it a point of contention when it comes to the IS?

[General Solo]

Come @me IS Bro's

[Jay Leon Hart]

Luminis, on 01 July 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

Just wanted to say that the whole "obsoletes the STD engine" argument is flawed. The CXL obsoletes the CSTD in as well, only exception being crit slot concerns, which also work for the IS STD. Nobody cares about the CSTD being nearly useless, so why is it a point of contention when it comes to the IS?

Except some of us do, so... yeah.

[FupDup]

Luminis, on 01 July 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

Just wanted to say that the whole "obsoletes the STD engine" argument is flawed. The CXL obsoletes the CSTD in as well, only exception being crit slot concerns, which also work for the IS STD. Nobody cares about the CSTD being nearly useless, so why is it a point of contention when it comes to the IS?

I just want to point out that there is no such thing as a CSTD or IS STD. There's just STD for both. It's shared tech.

Also, I care about the STD on the Clan side too.

[Tordin]

Khobai, on 29 June 2017 - 11:51 AM, said:

They fire way faster too

ISSRM6 has a 4 second cooldown. CSSRM6 is like a 6 second cooldown.

Spread and speed on the CSSRMs is way worse too

So yeah they take up more tons/crits but theyre better in many ways.



again not true.

ISERML (720m) has better max range than the CERML (688m)

this makes absolutely no sense and clearly PGI forgot about the max range nerf on CERMLs. OOPS.

CERML is a sad weapon right now... we pay way more heat for less range than the IS counterpart. Yeah CERML gets extra damage but thats largely nullified by the longer beam duration.

Agreed. both CSL and CML have less range than their IS cousin. The clan version needs longer range than IS er small and medium lasers.
The odd thing is that they didnt make the IS er ll having longer range than the Clan er ll... It should stay like that though. But hope they differenciate the sounds between the IS LL and IS ER LL, sound the same.

[Tarl Cabot]

El Bandito, on 01 July 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

All I will add is that LFE should not have as much penalties as CXL. Even an idiot can see that the CXL is straight up superior than LFE in that case, which doesnt help balance.

Agree.

Imho, I did not nor do I expect LFE to go live with no heat/movement penalties. But since PGI has no plans to introduce an functional engine crit system, even though they hint at it each time they add or make change to cXL penalties, there is also no reason for them to stick to 3 engine crits/death rule either. Using the crit rule w/heat scale as guideline PGI could change it to 4 engine crits.

With the loss of one side torso, the engine crits is the destruction of engine shielding, and LFE engines are using heavier material, this is my proposal.

LFE - 15.0% movement-20.0% heat / cXL 20.0% movement-30% heat / isXL 25% movement-40% heat penalties.

FYI for others - From the BT stats, LFE is 25% lighter than STD while both XL are 50% lighter. But MWO's engine weight is not just the engine itself, it also includes Cockpit (set 3 tons) and Gyro (engine rating/100: 4-tons for 400 engine, 3-tons for 300 engine, 2-tons for 200 engine, etc.)

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 01 July 2017 - 12:25 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

The above was solidified on the % differences based on when I was piloting my Huntsman w/2cLPL and some SRMS recently. Lost my right side torso, which removed SRMS, its ammo and some heatsinks that were in the right arm. I could barely fire my LPL singly then would to disappear and head for the next set of obstacles for cover, to wait a few secs to cool down before firing one LPL again. Both CT and Left ST were cherry red so a breeze would finish it.

If the penalty was 30% instead of 40%, would have I have been slightly more effective? Likely but it also got me to thinking about my Shadow Hawk 2K with its energy/missile hardpoints that I also play. Right now it is use either STD and be slower with less DHS or isXL with more speed and a few more DHS. How would my Shadow Hawk function with 40% heat penalty? Likely in the same manner as the Huntsman since it would also have fewer external DHS.

Now, IS components are heavier and bulkier than Clan components, so the heat penalty would have even more of an effect on IS mechs, so even though, generally IS energy weapons are not as hot as Clan weapons, it balances out.

And the differences between LFE, cXL and isXL are - LFE is made w/Clan technology but IS materials, isXL is made with IS/SL technology but IS material while cXL is made with Clan technology and Clan material, which this material is only located in Clan space.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 01 July 2017 - 01:00 PM.

[MadRover]

KevinZhang, on 29 June 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

I didn't follow along with every release but only recently looked over the notes for the PTS and what is coming to MWO with the Civil War tech. I'm not sure if it is just me but doesn't it seem really skewed towards IS mechs with this release? A majority of the weapons and tech seem to be IS only (especially the bigger stuff like rotary AC, STEALTH ARMOR, rokkit launchas, etc) while clans only get some micro-lasers and whatnot. I know people complain that clan is too strong but is swinging the pendulum hard towards the IS side really the right fix for balance?

yes and no. if you are refering to the amount of new gear each sphere is getting then of course not but if you are referring to gear that will hopefully spice the IS up some then yes.

Right now Clan has a lot of options that leads to the popular belief Clan are OP (and theyre not, you can check the IS MAD stats if you want a bit of proof on my mech stats) when IS has to go for the more optimized and specialized builds. So when Clan has more choices compared to the other sphere, then of course there will be a gross imbalance in the game that shouldnt have existed in the first place. When the Civil War update rolls out, it will all come down to skill because at this point, IS pilots have absolutely no excuse as to why theyre still getting a 12-0 beatdown in QP or even better FW.

Also on a side note on that Clan is OP, most Clan pilots tend to communicate with each other fairly often. So there is that

Edited by MadRover, 01 July 2017 - 01:15 PM.

[Pjwned]

Acehilator, on 01 July 2017 - 04:33 AM, said:

Balancing an ever increasing amount of equipment is just not going to happen anyways. [snip] And with PGI not giving any indication of reducing crit slots on HGauss and LB20/X, STDs are still needed.

They still have a reason to exist as long as engine balance stays the way it is now instead of suddenly deciding to make LFEs superior for no good reason.

Quote

And STD engines had a reason to exist since the first day of the MWO alpha... it is totally irrelevant if they were to be retired now after all that time.

It is relevant if they're "retired" actually, and if anything it's more important than ever that everything stays properly balanced in this transition period where IS & Clan balance is supposed to be brought closer together; you're just undeniably wrong in every way for saying otherwise.

[Pjwned]

Luminis, on 01 July 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

Just wanted to say that the whole "obsoletes the STD engine" argument is flawed. The CXL obsoletes the CSTD in as well, only exception being crit slot concerns, which also work for the IS STD. Nobody cares about the CSTD being nearly useless, so why is it a point of contention when it comes to the IS?

"This part is bad so we should also make this other part be bad."

Great idea, I guess we shouldn't have done anything about machine guns or flamers because standard heatsinks are bad too.

Edited by Pjwned, 01 July 2017 - 02:13 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

MadRover, on 01 July 2017 - 01:14 PM, said:

yes and no. if you are refering to the amount of new gear each sphere is getting then of course not but if you are referring to gear that will hopefully spice the IS up some then yes.

snip

When the Civil War update rolls out, it will all come down to skill because at this point, IS pilots have absolutely no excuse as to why theyre still getting a 12-0 beatdown in QP or even better FW.

Also on a side note on that Clan is OP, most Clan pilots tend to communicate with each other fairly often. So there is that

Of course they can, especially if equipping ballistic equipment, which are bulkier and heavier than clan equipment, which means they will still be reliant on isXL engines that die with the loss of one side torso. For a mech using 300 rated engine, that is a 9.5-ton difference between STD and isXL, or a 5-ton difference between STD/LFE or 4.5-ton difference between LFE/isXL. The other different with the tonnage difference does not mean a player will fit more weapons, but likely both DHS and a higher rated engine for more speed.

MWO 300 engine rating
XL- 9.5(engine) + 3 (cockpit) + 3 (gyro) = 15.5 tons
LFE - 14.5 + 3 + 3 - 20.5 tons
STD - 19.0 + 3 + 3 = 25 tons

[Willard Phule]

Snowbluff, on 29 June 2017 - 11:44 AM, said:

Yes. I don't think the IS needs new tech to compete, but a lot of the new stuff is filler tech.

They also get RACs, which are a unique weapon.

Clans literally get ******** lasers and missiles that are "meh," which is better than most clan missiles, but still...

RACs are not a unique weapon. Clans get them 2 years later.

[DivineTomatoes]

New tech designed to counter the clans favors the IS, NOOOOO. REALLY?

[kf envy]

Johnny Z, on 29 June 2017 - 05:00 PM, said:

The clan heavy medium laser does 10 damage for 1 ton? Meanwhile the LPL does 10 damage for 7 tons? This cannot be right.

the burn time on the heavy medium laser is a nightmare with its long burn time and it also take up 2 slot to ware as that LPL has a fast burn time and longer range. ill take that LPL over an heavy medium laser

[Acehilator]

Pjwned, on 01 July 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

They still have a reason to exist as long as engine balance stays the way it is now instead of suddenly deciding to make LFEs superior for no good reason.


It is relevant if they're "retired" actually, and if anything it's more important than ever that everything stays properly balanced in this transition period where IS & Clan balance is supposed to be brought closer together; you're just undeniably wrong in every way for saying otherwise.

The reason to make LFEs superior is to close the performance gap to ClanXL. LFE without side torso loss penalties would go a loooong way to better faction balance. Halved penalties would the ABSOLUTE minimum if they want to stay true to their whole "balance tech bases" approach (number of DHS is quite a bit lower in IS builds, so the heat penalty hits us harder).

And what do STDs have do to with faction balance, apart from the fact that they are bad, and have been bad since the day Clantech arrived? PGI could have buffed STDs any day in the last three years, they didn't, expecting them to do it now is pretty naive... they will just point you to LFEs. "Undeniably wrong", you are funny, rofl.

[Y E O N N E]

Willard Phule, on 01 July 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

RACs are not a unique weapon. Clans get them 2 years later.

6 years later, IIRC. It's still experimental in 3069.

[Summon3r]

Metus regem, on 29 June 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

Most of the new IS tech are just knock offs of current clan tech, but worse baring quirks.

LFF 7 slots, but gives less protection per ton than cFF
isUAC/2/10/20 all weigh more and take more crit slots than cUAC/2/10/20
isLB-2X/5x/20X all weigh more and take more crit slots than cLB-2X/5X/20X
isERSL/ML have less range and damage than cERSL/ML
HPPC weighs 66% more, takes double the crit space while having less range than the cERPPC
LGR does 53% of the damage of the cGR
isSSRM/4/6 weigh more and take more crit slots than cSSRM/4/6

Seeing a pattern here?

so what your saying is it is all exactly how it should be if your going to call your game a "Battletech Game"?

[MischiefSC]

Is LFE ST loss penalties are stupid. It's flat out inferior, why give it penalties? Because if Clan tech isnt flat out better then munchkins will cry? I dont get it. Even TT acknowledged that that system was bad and moved to 1 to 1 balance. Why are we repeating acknowledgrd mistakes in the games design?