147 replies to this topic

[Aramuside]

Koniving, on 01 July 2017 - 02:31 AM, said:

Is Laser AMS supposed to be on the IS? I kinda thought it wasn't but I have a Marauder sporting it. Not that it would shoot down anything... Maybe it's selective in what it fires at? Will try it again today.

Will also see if it is possible to mix Laser AMS and standard AMS.
You can mix it. So for those having issues with 3 Laser AMS being unable to fight, take 1 or 2 Laser AMS and sport the remaining slot(s) in standard AMS.

Yeah my Nova is currently dual ammo based and single laser for longevity which seems a bizarre setup when I think of lore but works in MWO.

[Aramuside]

Chris Puetz, on 01 July 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

we hab make a Test yesterday.
A Mech with 2 LAMS against a Mech with ATM3, 6, 9 ,12; only from the ATM12 one Missle comb through the AMS-Wall.
I think it's a good compromise!

AMS node specced?

Dee Eight, on 01 July 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

Not in the context that is this game where the large lasers do more damage than heat... but in the BT source material, where large lasers were 8 heat for 8 damage, and ER LLs were 12 heat for 8 (IS) or 10 (Clan) damage... it does. 1 more year though (3068) and we add my fave, plasma rifles to the energy mix. 10 heat for 10 damage and same range as a large laser, but also does 10 heat to the target mech.

Surely the point is pinpoint vs duration - its why we love brawling dual ERLL lights as they're useless at brawling.

[Aramuside]

ThiefofAlways, on 01 July 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:

PGI, for laser AMS to be viable you need to reduce the heat a lot more to perhaps 1. If not there is no way you had run it in this day and age with all the LRMs running around. It will never let you cool down with how you have heat dissipation set to not cool while weapons are firing or jumping. Even as it is now a single L-AMS will shut you down because in heavy LRM fights you cant cool off.

Well technically you can. I found myself switching off the 1 LAMS on my Nova to cool down while my 2 normal AMS were still in use. Its silly to need to do that imo though as it means you essentially have to rely on coolshot and switching off non offensive items just to fire any non MG based weaponry.

[MechaBattler]

StormDll, on 01 July 2017 - 10:52 PM, said:

Eah, and ClanERPPC need 15 pp damage | 15 heat

HPPC weighs 10 tons and takes up 3 slots. C-ERPPC weighs 6 tons and 2 slots. For a lot more range, more velocity, and no min range. Meanwhile the IS has to use a Snub PPC for that kind of weight savings and slots at the cost of a lot of range and apparently being less heat efficient than the IS PPC.

Edited by MechaBattler, 01 July 2017 - 11:42 PM.

[Aramuside]

corpse256, on 01 July 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

or just turn it off and it will cool. Adjusting the heat would just make it better than the standard AMS(I'm not saying tweaks are not needed, just take it into consideration). It should have a draw back instead of taking the ammo type one you would have to take that heat penalty for massive use of the weapon. Means rewarding players that chose to take that ammo type one with sacrificing tonnage to insure there is ammo for the AMS would give it a leg up instead of taking a heat penalty. Just remember to keep in mind that if you save weight something has to give. If heat was lowered too much it would make taking the standard AMS not worth anyone's time. PGI wants players to make critical decisions when making choices of what combat roles you should take into the game. Always was a huge process of mechwarrior and I hope it continues down this hardcore and fun part of the game.

As I put above its a silly mechanic and utterly anti-lore when you have to mix the two though. You shouldn't have to be micro manage multiple LAM/AMS constantly unless they very significantly raise the rewards for it. I was literally having to revert to coolshots if I suddenly came across opponents which is very silly. Instead of firing I was... switch off the AMS, coolshot, let heat drop... fire. In that time you've already done two actions to kill me including at least one full volley presumably.

PS: Yes I know most people don't care about lore at all but it still needs to be said.
PPS: Multiple triggers for having more AMS gets silly when you have 6 set up on a nova and 2 are reserved for AMS aka Hidden Mode (all off) and none insane heat built up (LAMS off). Left laser, right laser, cycle/volley, MG being the other 4.

[cougurt]

make heavy PPCs 15 pinpoint damage. velocity could be reduced if necessary.

the other PPCs (excluding ERs and snubs) should also be given the same minimum range damage drop-off that heavies have.

[Bageldrone]

why would you put LAMS on an Energy build?
if you're running a hot build you put AMS on
if you're running a cold build you put LAMS on
not hard to work out

Edited by Bageldrone, 02 July 2017 - 01:00 AM.

[CptnHero]

IS AC 20 and IS UAC 20 have the same heat, but if you fire 2 AC 20 they produce way more heat as 2 UAC 20. Even on double-click.

Edited by CptnHero, 02 July 2017 - 04:20 AM.

[Litago]

Koniving, on 01 July 2017 - 08:01 PM, said:

You get one shot from across the map within 20 seconds of the game starting and tell me if you find it fun; this is the reason the Gauss Rifles got the charge restriction in the first place. River City was terrible about this. And we don't alpha those weapons. You get punished for two AC/20s being fired at once with 600% additional heat. You have a twin charge restriction with Gauss and Heavy Gauss as well. I fire them consecutively. Two then two. The same way I showed you that you could fire the Light Gauss Rifles to even greater effect.

Stats:
Cooldown: 3.75 (-.375) = 3.375 seconds.
Standard Gauss cooldown: 5 seconds (-.05) 4.5 seconds [Whatever happened to the 7 second cooldown they kept talking about? )
Max range: 1500.
Standard Gauss max range: 1320.
Health: 10
SG health: 10

So.
Twin Gauss: 30 alpha. Every 4.5 seconds.
Quad Light Gauss: 32 alpha, every 3.375 seconds.
Note this isn't including charge time. Obviously. I don't know what the charge time is for the Light Gauss other than it's super quick, as in I've accidentally fired several times when trying to cancel the charge by releasing prematurely. Quite a bit of team damage has resulted from this; tap the Gauss and intend to not fire or cancel fire -- oops, killed a teammate.

So in 13.5 seconds the Quad Light Gauss could deliver 128 damage.
In 18 seconds, the twin Gauss can deliver 120 damage.

By the time the Light Gauss hits 18 seconds, it'll do 170 damage according to the Ratio Calculator on Calculator Soup. So it's a third faster at delivering damage instead of 2.5 times (which it would have been close to this if Gauss Rifle still had its talked about 7 or 8 second cooldown time).

A lot of **** can happen in that 4.5 second difference. The game is how it is, ghost heat and charge restrictions are the way they are. I never said I thought it was fair or right. I just said suck it up, learn how to fire consecutively, and tried to show you how to do it so that you could stop crying and just kill things. Now stop fussing like a kid, wipe the tears from your eyes, grab your four Light Gauss Rifles and start Killing ****. Stop expecting the game to hand you the easy wins just because you wanna boat more than is ever canonically used, and don't expect the game to coddle you or hold your hand just because the restrictions touched you the wrong way. It's time to suck it up, realize things aren't fair, and add skill to your pallet so that you can, at least, say you earned your keep.

You conveniently forgot to mention stats like tonnage, and slots. You can't just compare 2 Gauss to 4 Light Gauss straight up. 18 tons of more weight you know?? Thats 3 ER Large, 2 LRM 10+Ammo, 2 PPC's, and so on. Try to compare 3 Gauss to 4 Light Gauss, the 3 Gauss will already out DPS the 4 Light Gauss. And you STILL have 3 tons to spare with 3 Gauss compared to 4 Light.

A lot of **** can happen in 4.5 seconds? So, obviously you can stare at your enemy for 13 seconds, but a lot of **** can happen in 4.5 seconds? What? 13 seconds is more than twice as long as 4.5 seconds. If anything the normal Gauss is just better because it gives high pinpoint damage and lets you take potshots rapidly and hide again, giving the same damage with less exposure. And when combined with 3 ER Large Lasers you get an alpha of 57 damage, way beyond the 4 Light Gauss' 32 damage, furthermore, 2 Gauss + 3 ER Large give a DPS of 11.22, while 4 Light Gauss gives roughly 8. More than 3 less dps. The Light Gauss is ONLY useful when brawling, and then you're brawling with GAUSS, which EXPLODES.

I'm not crying, if anything you are the emotional one here, you consistently bring up your own results as if they have any meaning, you're comparing the weapons in a biased manner, completely ignoring some aspects of the game, and now you are just insulting me.

I simply want the new tech to be relevant, and the fact of the matter is: The light gauss is a worse AC10. Less damage, longer cooldown, less health, same weight, explodes, AND it has a charge mechanic. PGI has already made a balance pass, so if they won't change the weapon stats any further, then please remove the limit.

Edited by Litago, 02 July 2017 - 04:35 AM.

[ImperialKnight]

*sigh*

PGI, you're doing that same crap to the HMGs as you did with the MGs when you nerfed them into oblivion. For someone who gave up like 4-6 Ballistics slots, tonnage for ammo, any range at all (seriously, you have to be able to look into the enemy cockpit to get it to work), AND the enemy has to have no armor, he should be able to obliterate the internals with the HMGs in seconds.

NOT everything has to be "normalised", balance in game mechanics mean you give up some things to be good in certain things. All you're doing is make all the MGs completely useless like before. So why even bother introducing new MGs?

[Chris Puetz]

Aramuside, on 01 July 2017 - 11:28 PM, said:

AMS node specced?

No Nodes were specced.
And we try it one by one.
ATM 3 no Missle hit
ATM 6 no Missle hit
ATM 9 no Missle hit
ATM 12 one Rocket find his target

for that in mind, u need more than one ATM-Launcher!

[Aramuside]

Bageldrone, on 02 July 2017 - 12:58 AM, said:

why would you put LAMS on an Energy build?
if you're running a hot build you put AMS on
if you're running a cold build you put LAMS on
not hard to work out

Triple AMS Nova/Firefox - are there even any primary ballistic triple AMS boats?

Your goal is to protect the team btw so light/med/fast heavy.

Limited pool to pick from and the laser gives longevity.

Edited by Aramuside, 02 July 2017 - 05:36 AM.

[Rhialto]

ThiefofAlways, on 01 July 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:

PGI, for laser AMS to be viable you need to reduce the heat a lot more to perhaps 1. If not there is no way you had run it in this day and age with all the LRMs running around. It will never let you cool down with how you have heat dissipation set to not cool while weapons are firing or jumping. Even as it is now a single L-AMS will shut you down because in heavy LRM fights you cant cool off.

Wanted to try 3 x L-AMS but not many bring LRMs so wan't able to test... because like you I think it must be insane how quickly you overheat just standing watching the show.

[BlueWizi]

Bageldrone, on 01 July 2017 - 03:34 AM, said:

HPPC needs to be 15dmg, at the moment 3 standard ppcs are 4 more dmg for less heat with the only penalty being ghost heat, 1 ton and 1 slot more overall - why would you take heavies? sure you will get ghost heat if you alpha them but you can fire in 2 groups to negate that with very little difference to the damage output.
also mrms either need a dmg boost with a minimum range or a much higher velocity. firing at static targets is fine but once the enemy starts to move at 250m+ range you arent going to hit anything. in my opinion MRMs need to be range 90-450m speed of 500m/s or more with a dmg of more than 1 per missile before they are going to see any effective play.

Heavy PPC is 15 damage you dingus. It (now) does 13 damage to the location hit and 1 damage to each adjacent location, so total 15 damage. Before it did 12 damage to location hit and 1.5 to both adjacent locations. Both total to 15 damage.

The splash damage just isn't listed in the stats. Like the clan ER PPC is listed as 10 dmg, but does 15 because it has 2.5 splash damage to both adjacent locations.

[CptnHero]

If you combine HMLAS (2 or 4) with 2 or 4 ERMEDLAS theres is a massive ghost heat.

[ThiefofAlways]

Been some years but I believe AMS only worked on the missiles aimed at you and only those that were going to hit. Like I said many years since table top. Also you didn't have all the missile boats running around because missiles weren't as good a weapon or other weapons preferred. Add to this you have an amount of heat you could get rid of in the same span of time that the AMS engaged. LMAS did have heat vs AMS but it also could knock down more missiles. I don't like having to micro manage the AMS as stated above by the time I do that you have killed me or I shut down and you killed me. Since it is something being brought in that was once lore but of course changed for the game, adjustments but be made for the game. You cant run 3 LAMS or maybe even 2 in the way the game is played now without shutdown. Like I said if I am in a complete support roll, then we need cooling to work all the time so some of the heat is vented off while we are using them "similar" to the turn system. A heat reduction in the LAMS would be nice/needed as well.

PS: I to have thought of AMS/LAMS combinations as well a 2/1 ratio on the kitfox/nova.

PSS: ATM3/6/9/12 should get shot down easier there are less missiles a much as I love the weapon it is fewer to kill. Also ATMs should have not minimal range. OP?, well yes if a mech with those could get close then you had to suffer. Same now if you let an SRM boat get close.

Edited by ThiefofAlways, 02 July 2017 - 09:51 AM.

[MovinTarget]

Rhialto, on 02 July 2017 - 05:39 AM, said:

Wanted to try 3 x L-AMS but not many bring LRMs so wan't able to test... because like you I think it must be insane how quickly you overheat just standing watching the show.

How many have unbound their ams on/off toggle will now have to put it back on?

Also, would be nice if it wasn't a toggle but could control how many ams are working at any given time... so i might not crank up more than one unless *I* am getting targeted...

[Edward Hazen]

Koniving, on 01 July 2017 - 02:31 AM, said:

Is Laser AMS supposed to be on the IS? I kinda thought it wasn't but I have a Marauder sporting it.

According to Sarna.net Clans laser AMS went into production by 3048 (so Clans should have had it from the start) and IS laser AMS went into production in 3059. The FedCom Civil War era is from 3062 to 3067 so it is lore-appropriate for both Clan and IS to have laser AMS during this time.

And to all the people complaining about laser AMS heat...also from sarna.."The LAMS can be mounted both on BattleMechs and vehicles. As its heat build-up is high, the unit with an LAMS must carry enough heat sinks to counter the higher output it produces (5 heat points for Clan, 7 for Inner Sphere)."

Edited by Edward Hazen, 02 July 2017 - 11:24 AM.

[Koniving]

Edward Hazen, on 02 July 2017 - 11:22 AM, said:

As its heat build-up is high, the unit with an LAMS must carry enough heat sinks to counter the higher output it produces (5 heat points for Clan, 7 for Inner Sphere)."

Hot damn no wonder it's a hot tamale! That's higher than BT AC/20 heat, and equal to BT IS/Clan ERML for the Clans.

[Sanktre]

Dear PGI

For starter, I like many of the new weapons (especially the new machine guns) as it gives more choices and in my opinion it makes 1-2 old mech better (like awesome 8t with 300 light eng, +4heatsink, 5 med laser and 2x40 mrm)
Also the rotary canons allows me to make blinding barrages for short time. The MRM in my opinion is a great addition and as clanner i admit i envy it but only a little.

There is a problem i encountered.. the ghost heat if you combine the ac 2 and 5 rotary..it makes the machine overheat much faster than 2xac 5 rotary but overall its a funny terror gun.

Changing to other weapons. C-AC 2-20 is getting even more layers of dust as it has still no use at its current state.
I also find ATM missiles are very limited as there is no point to use at long range, and completely useless at short range, much less safe to use as you cant use it from cover, and AMS probably gonna make it less effective as it has less rocket to aim at than LRM. For me, this will go next to the C-AC to collect some dust (i hope others find it better to use).
Heavy gauss is kind of scary even with recoil ... i hope nobody can or will make double of this on a single mech.

My concern is the way mostly we are heading. Or at least i fear that we are heading to the path where we get even higher alphas (and high burst attacks ) and longer dps builds get even less rewarding especially since the recent short range energy weapon changes. The rotary looks fun but due to the very short time it has i find it unreliable.

The Laser AMS is a little bit of a headache as it can overheat mech. Having its own bar to overheat only itself would be better but i guess its necessary so it will not render the normal AMS useless.

Light engines are without saying is well needed item for IS.

Overall i can always adjust but i just hope i don't have to change too much

This my opinion. And btw keep up the good work