147 replies to this topic

[Leonidas the First]

If you are going to tweak weapons you might want to change the LBX weapons other wise they are likely to be used only by stock/lore players. Given the crit system the additional crit damage is almost useless, so even if MWO implemented ammo switching that aspect of the LBX weapons is of no use. The only reason you ever see the current IS LBX 10 on the battle field is is someone wants to fit two in a torso or wants to shave a ton or two in a closer range brawler. The new IS LBX weapons weight the same and take up more space. They also have more range which is a useless "buff" because of the damage spread. From personal experience running many matches in a Mauler with 4 LBX 10 I can tell you that the extra crit damage actually has little if any positive effect given the games critical hit formula. The only advantage to the new LBX's is that they generate less heat which will give a mech higher DPS if it can maintain fire over a very long period of time.

Unless PGI breaks with cannon here and the LBX 5 and LBX 20 have the same advantages ot the LBX 10, which is 1 less ton and 1 less critical, the design and coding time for these weapons will be a waste of time as your are likely to never see them on the battlefield. Check you PTS data and see how many people have even tried these shiny new toys.

Edited by Leonidas the First, 02 July 2017 - 01:22 PM.

[ThiefofAlways]

I agree they should need to carry extra heat sinks to deal with the heat, the problem as I keep mentioning is that you cant dissipate heat while they are running unlike on table top. The only way to fix the heat dissipation issue is.

1. Reduce the over all heat they generate.

2. Allow heat to be dissipated while they are firing.

Since PGI has the game coded for no heat dissipation while firing is would be easier to just reduce the heat generated while hey are used.

[Genesis23]

Edward Hazen, on 01 July 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

I just clearly shows that "balance" is not the intent of these changes, IS is clearly favored and it won't stop until people start playing primarily IS Mechs.

thats just complete BS on your part. clans had extreme advantages two years ago and most of them still remain to this day. in the PUG matches i get in, most of the players, about 7-10/12 PER SIDE, use clan tech.

also, the HPPC needs 15dmg pinpoint and maybe 2dmg splash. for the price you pay to use it, for all the disadvantages it has, it should at least hit hard. and im saying this as a guy who hates ppc users with a passion and hates to use them himself.
in fact, the only mech i own which i ever enjoyed using ppc is the warhammer with the PPC/LBX setup copied from Baradul/Molten Metal.

[Aramuside]

Edward Hazen, on 02 July 2017 - 11:22 AM, said:

According to Sarna.net Clans laser AMS went into production by 3048 (so Clans should have had it from the start) and IS laser AMS went into production in 3059. The FedCom Civil War era is from 3062 to 3067 so it is lore-appropriate for both Clan and IS to have laser AMS during this time.

And to all the people complaining about laser AMS heat...also from sarna.."The LAMS can be mounted both on BattleMechs and vehicles. As its heat build-up is high, the unit with an LAMS must carry enough heat sinks to counter the higher output it produces (5 heat points for Clan, 7 for Inner Sphere)."

The distinction you're missing though is I'm not even sure any mechs ran triple AMS in lore did they? PGI have never demonstrated any particular desire to stick to the heat figures in TT. They just balance them against each other while keeping weight and crit slots the same.

Edited by Aramuside, 03 July 2017 - 02:22 AM.

[Aramuside]

Leonidas the First, on 02 July 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

If you are going to tweak weapons you might want to change the LBX weapons other wise they are likely to be used only by stock/lore players. Given the crit system the additional crit damage is almost useless, so even if MWO implemented ammo switching that aspect of the LBX weapons is of no use. The only reason you ever see the current IS LBX 10 on the battle field is is someone wants to fit two in a torso or wants to shave a ton or two in a closer range brawler. The new IS LBX weapons weight the same and take up more space. They also have more range which is a useless "buff" because of the damage spread. From personal experience running many matches in a Mauler with 4 LBX 10 I can tell you that the extra crit damage actually has little if any positive effect given the games critical hit formula. The only advantage to the new LBX's is that they generate less heat which will give a mech higher DPS if it can maintain fire over a very long period of time.

Unless PGI breaks with cannon here and the LBX 5 and LBX 20 have the same advantages ot the LBX 10, which is 1 less ton and 1 less critical, the design and coding time for these weapons will be a waste of time as your are likely to never see them on the battlefield. Check you PTS data and see how many people have even tried these shiny new toys.

Mmh fairly sure I have several clan mechs with LBX and several IS. They have their use on both sdes and I don't see that changing.

[Valund Pryde]

The laser AMS could JAM if the heat become critical? And then reactivate after the heat would be down?
It's just an idea that looks not bad!

Heavy's lasers could have the same duration as a standard clan ER laser (standard and er laser IS have same duration after all)
Heavy lasers are bulky, have high heat and lower range (and insane ghost heat that cumulate with other, even pulse laser ! Maybe it's a bug...)


(Sorry for my english, it's not my birth-language )

[Genesis23]

Aramuside, on 03 July 2017 - 02:23 AM, said:

Mmh fairly sure I have several clan mechs with LBX and several IS. They have their use on both sdes and I don't see that changing.

true, they will still be used (i prefer them to normal autocannons and very much to clan ones) but not at the cost of more cost in slots and tonnage. the lbx10 as it was until now was good for that reason, if you were short on tonnage and wanted a ballistic with a bit of OOUPPFFF in your loadout, you took an lbx. also it was usefull to hit small buggers running around your allies, a big chance to hit the small ones without accidentially dealing full damage to one of your buddies (legs). in some builds, they were even more effective than normal ac would be and the crit mechanics saved my shiny metal backside more often than anyone would believe me.

the clan lbx are also smaller and lighter as their ac counterparts iirc, so the same should go with the IS ones.

[ThiefofAlways]

Aramuside,

The kitfox ran 3 AMS per Sarna, Nova ran 2. I haven't pulled out my books to see if it is the same but I am sure it is.

PS: the pods were there the Nova to run three, just no listing of if running more than 2.

Edited by ThiefofAlways, 03 July 2017 - 08:24 AM.

[Rhialto]

Valund Pryde, on 03 July 2017 - 04:25 AM, said:

The laser AMS could JAM if the heat become critical? And then reactivate after the heat would be down?

Nice suggestion, instead of shutting down the Mech for overheating, let's have the L-AMS alone overheat so no more protection until it cools down and restart by itself.

[William Warriors]

ATMs is utterly useless. You need lock.. sure.. by the time it lock, at min range.. you fire.. the target has gone off your sight. 100 percent most of the time.

If it is fire like an LRM.. it is... not behaving like an LRM.. and not enough to damage a mech.

This should be a dumbfire weapon with out lock, and also NO min range.

Only iATMs need lock.

One way to make a weapon utterly useless. Just like that Charge mechanism for a Gauss rifle.

[Koniving]

Rhialto, on 03 July 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

Nice suggestion, instead of shutting down the Mech for overheating, let's have the L-AMS alone overheat so no more protection until it cools down and restart by itself.

Truth be told in BT's campaign rules, as an Omnimech you could put an AMS on every single body part including the legs (so long as there are slots available). They're simply Gatling guns on turrets, not much different from your machine gun. In fact the Bombardier 'Mech, when AMS became temporarily extinct between 2750 and 3025, the AMS basically became a simple machine gun due to the lack of an automatic targeting system

The issue is... why would you? A single AMS often did the job and two basically made you invincible. Granted there wasn't a lot of Krakens around, and enemy LRM users could only lob a single salvo per launcher per ten seconds. Now since you had 1x armor and structure instead of our 2x+, those launchers and their single volleys were devastating. Especially since they often hit a single body part with ALL the missiles (or most of them).

Here that just isn't the case. Here we sling LRMs like machine gun bullets and they're just about as effective as machine guns.

[MovinTarget]

As i said before, there is a toggle for ams, people are going to learn to use it more strategically than before with that heat.

Again, i would add that tje toggle should operate more than on/off but allow you to cycle through the number of ams you want active so that a frickin lrm5 volley doesn't make 3 lams go batcrap loco...

Edited by MovinTarget, 03 July 2017 - 04:34 PM.

[Ukku]

RACs do not sync well with any other weapon types. With the existing Ghost Heat limit of 2, boating RACs is nowhere as competitive as boating other weapon types (IS UAC 5/10). Please remove Ghost Heat for RACs as their tonnage already limits bringing more than 2 of them to assaults, and with the RACs GH limit at 2 these RAC assault builds are gimmicky at best with no competitive edge.

[Edward Hazen]

Genesis23, on 02 July 2017 - 11:12 PM, said:

thats just complete BS on your part. clans had extreme advantages two years ago and most of them still remain to this day. in the PUG matches i get in, most of the players, about 7-10/12 PER SIDE, use clan tech.

Clans were nerfed before they were even released and then they were severely nerfed shortly after they were in game and they have been nerfed almost continually since then. I see plenty of IS mechs in games and most of them do quite well, I do not see Clans having any clear advantage in most games. In Quick Play at least, the biggest issue is that there are no longer enough players playing to keep the tiers separated, so I routinely see tier 5-3 players playing against tier 1 and 2 and it does not matter what Mech you are in.

[Genesis23]

William Warriors, on 03 July 2017 - 03:13 PM, said:

This should be a dumbfire weapon with out lock, and also NO min range.

Only iATMs need lock.

One way to make a weapon utterly useless. Just like that Charge mechanism for a Gauss rifle.

ATM without lock-on and minimum range would be way OP. 3dmg per rocket would make former streakboats even more dangerous and effective, bringing us back to the same problems we had a few months ago. that would be just utter elk ****.

if you have any idea how a gauss rifle works, you would know why the charge mechanism makes sense. also, without charge mechanism every potato would run around with those because there would be absolutely no skill involved in using them. and last but not least, it makes the weapon unique around other options.

[StormDll]

Genesis23, on 03 July 2017 - 10:06 PM, said:

ATM without lock-on and minimum range would be way OP. 3dmg per rocket would make former streakboats even more dangerous and effective, bringing us back to the same problems we had a few months ago. that would be just utter elk ****.

if you have any idea how a gauss rifle works, you would know why the charge mechanism makes sense. also, without charge mechanism every potato would run around with those because there would be absolutely no skill involved in using them. and last but not least, it makes the weapon unique around other options.

eah, MRM 20-30-40 without lock not OP, ATM 3-6-9-12 without lock OP. Okay.

[Genesis23]

StormDll, on 04 July 2017 - 01:08 AM, said:

eah, MRM 20-30-40 without lock not OP, ATM 3-6-9-12 without lock OP. Okay.

look up dmg, cooldown, spread and tonnage before talking up. also, mrm are useless from a certain range, while as atm easily can used as an alternative to lurms. not identical, but better than nothing.

also, do you really would like to have MRM with lock used against you? they would be more accurate than they are now.

Edited by Genesis23, 04 July 2017 - 02:14 AM.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Sanktre, on 02 July 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

Dear PGI

For starter, I like many of the new weapons (especially the new machine guns) as it gives more choices and in my opinion it makes 1-2 old mech better (like awesome 8t with 300 light eng, +4heatsink, 5 med laser and 2x40 mrm)
Also the rotary canons allows me to make blinding barrages for short time. The MRM in my opinion is a great addition and as clanner i admit i envy it but only a little.

There is a problem i encountered.. the ghost heat if you combine the ac 2 and 5 rotary..it makes the machine overheat much faster than 2xac 5 rotary but overall its a funny terror gun.

Changing to other weapons. C-AC 2-20 is getting even more layers of dust as it has still no use at its current state.
I also find ATM missiles are very limited as there is no point to use at long range, and completely useless at short range, much less safe to use as you cant use it from cover, and AMS probably gonna make it less effective as it has less rocket to aim at than LRM. For me, this will go next to the C-AC to collect some dust (i hope others find it better to use).
Heavy gauss is kind of scary even with recoil ... i hope nobody can or will make double of this on a single mech.

My concern is the way mostly we are heading. Or at least i fear that we are heading to the path where we get even higher alphas (and high burst attacks ) and longer dps builds get even less rewarding especially since the recent short range energy weapon changes. The rotary looks fun but due to the very short time it has i find it unreliable.

The Laser AMS is a little bit of a headache as it can overheat mech. Having its own bar to overheat only itself would be better but i guess its necessary so it will not render the normal AMS useless.

Light engines are without saying is well needed item for IS.

Overall i can always adjust but i just hope i don't have to change too much

This my opinion. And btw keep up the good work

I already was running a dual H-gauss Sleipnir yesterday, and I am looking forward to my Annihilator doing it better It's a fun weapon for sure... HGauss is my most anticipated thing in the game, haha. And I bought my Annihilator just so I can play Fafnir with it n.n Right now, only Sleipnir, and the Mauler can run dual HGauss in the entire game, and it's basically all they can run, without chopping the engine way down. (theoretically, you could put two on a Widowmaker as well, but you'd be slow and made of paper...)

I use my Highlander IIC as a mid-range hammer... In the past, I've rolled with 3LRM15 and a UAC10 (and TAG), and it's super effective around 400 meters. The UAC shreds a specific component and the LRMs tear into it remarkably quickly... In the PTS, I replaced the LRMs with 3 ATM9s.... And mechs melted before me in that same sweet spot... It's terrifying how devastating a weapon they are at 3-400 meters. The minimum range is a chore to work around to be sure, but what they do they do amazingly well...

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 04 July 2017 - 04:25 AM.

[MovinTarget]

Edward Hazen, on 03 July 2017 - 09:39 PM, said:

Clans were nerfed before they were even released and then they were severely nerfed shortly after they were in game and they have been nerfed almost continually since then. I see plenty of IS mechs in games and most of them do quite well

But why were clans nerfed in the beginning?

Was it spite? Was it a idgaf attitude on the part of PGI?

Was it perhaps because they would have been ridiculously OP AND P2W until the cbill versions came out some 6 months later if their weapons were stock TT values.

People need to have some realistic expectations that if PGI can't build opposing sides to balance on skill/BV/whatevs then there needs to be a normalization of performance (i.e. try for balance w/o homogenizing tech).

When you say "plenty of IS mechs doing well" do you mean the meta builds that people gravitate towards to be competetive or do you mean chassis like the Vindicator or Zeus consistently poppin' off for 1k dmg?

Oh, and lets be fair, lots of IS mechs had their moment in the sun and, yes, they could be OP, only to be nerfed back into oblivion.

Clans currently have little to kvetch about seeing how they have access now to more buffs via the skill tree than they ever had before. Many IS lost quirks so that the result is often breaking even.

I am not saying clan mechs all deserved every.single.nerf.ever, but just like I will call out spheroids crying clams OP plz nerf for superfluous stuff, I'll do that here as well.

The majority of time, regardless of the tech you are bringing, its a matter of making it work for you instead of building on a concept and expecting it to work with 23 other players on the field doing their own thing as well...

Edward Hazen, on 03 July 2017 - 09:39 PM, said:

I do not see Clans having any clear advantage in most games.

As long as IS has no clear advantage either then this is a win in my book.

Edited by MovinTarget, 04 July 2017 - 05:47 AM.

[Twilight Fenrir]

I don't see the roll of the heavy PPC at the moment... I think the modest increase in damage really fails to offset the extra tonnage and heat...

Unless... It mentions in this update arcing damage of 1... Which I assume is similar to how the Clan ERPPC works? So is that arcing damage in addition to the 13dmg of the weapon, or is the 13 damage including the 1 point of damage done to each adjacent component?

I'd personally like to see it do 15 dmg, but, since it has the same cycle rate as a regular PPC, I guess it's fair enough if it's 13+arc

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 04 July 2017 - 06:34 AM.