40 replies to this topic

[Cato Zilks]

As many of you have already noted, the Heavy Laser is clumsy because it has insanely high duration and cooldown. The C-LPL is almost always going to be a better option over the C-HLL because it is so much more heat effective, has better range, and its beam duration is 50% shorter than the C-HLL. Right now the C-LPL does 1.1 damage per .1 seconds, while the C-HLL does 1.03. So not only is it shorter range and hotter, but the C-LPL user can start torso twisting away the extra 5.5 damage the C-HLL does.

The Heavy Lasers are having issues because we don't have a spot for them. Right now to make them out trade a C-LPL we would have to reduce their duration to a point that was game breaking. The issue is that the Pulse laser is already the high damage laser, and we cant elegantly fit in a new high damage laser.

Importantly, this was predictable. Kanajashi walked through this issue pretty well in his video on energy weapons back in May (https://mwomercs.com...ergy-rebalance/). I think, (as said in that thread) that he had a hugely important solution regarding pulse lasers.

If we make pulse lasers super-short duration, high dps weapons,we open up a space for the Heavy Lasers. Here are my proposed numbers, but I am not tied to them:
https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing
My goal was to make Pulse lasers high DPS and have the new Heavy Lasers have similar Heat/Sec and DMG/.1Sec stats to the old pulse lasers. My C-HL's:
Heavy Laser (Small) Duration .85 Cooldown 3.45
Heavy Laser (Medium) Duration 1.05 Cooldown 5.15
Heavy Laser (Large) Duration 1.30 Cooldown 6.00

They are high alpha, low dps lasers.

[davoodoo]

the fact that it does only 10.3dmg per second despite having 45% higher dmh than cerll which does 8.15dmg per second already should show where the problem is...

compared to cerll
pros
145% dmg.
126% damage per second firing
cons
300% bulk
170% heat
148% time between shots
61% range.

Edited by davoodoo, 01 July 2017 - 01:07 PM.

[LordNothing]

i think damage/duration should really be the dominant trait. i dont care what the cd is but pain per tick needs to be the best among all large lasers. currently this is held by the lpl, which should be a dps weapon. cd can be very long, so long as im doing at least 12 damage a second while its firing.

Edited by LordNothing, 01 July 2017 - 01:15 PM.

[davoodoo]

You can forget about energy weapons being dps weapons and you can especially forget about big energy weapons ever starting in that contest.

Maybe if we actually get external 0.4dhs, but till then wont happen.

pulses will remain brawling lasers, nothing wrong with that, focus heavies on good close range direct fire support.

High dmg, duration and cooldown of er lasers.

Edited by davoodoo, 01 July 2017 - 01:17 PM.

[FupDup]

davoodoo, on 01 July 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

You can forget about energy weapons being dps weapons and you can especially forget about big energy weapons ever starting in that contest.

Maybe if we actually get external 0.4dhs, but till then wont happen.

pulses will remain brawling lasers, nothing wrong with that, focus heavies on good close range direct fire support.

High dmg, duration and cooldown of er lasers.

A DPS family of lasers could work if they had significantly lower heat per second than other types. PGI is focusing too much on slightly reducing damage and slightly buffing cooldown.

[davoodoo]

FupDup, on 01 July 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

A DPS family of lasers could work if they had significantly lower heat per second than other types. PGI is focusing too much on slightly reducing damage and slightly buffing cooldown.

Dps weapon is one ill actually fire for extended amount of time.

1.91hps or 1 is lpl 10 engine dhs
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...89e33899610fe70
this is what i need to do cool off 3.82hps

So how much heat would that lpl need to do?? 1hps? i mean 1.4 hps was 1 heat/shot ac2 and it was considered extremely hot.

I wont even start on dps.

Edited by davoodoo, 01 July 2017 - 01:28 PM.

[Cato Zilks]

LordNothing, on 01 July 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

i think damage/duration should really be the dominant trait. i dont care what the cd is but pain per tick needs to be the best among all large lasers. currently this is held by the lpl, which should be a dps weapon. cd can be very long, so long as im doing at least 12 damage a second while its firing.

Well DMG/Dur can be misleading because it sets all damage rates = to 1 second. I prefer to look at DMG/.1Sec and DMG in 1 Sec to better guide the rate of damage. DMG in 1 Sec also highlights the differences between the PGI pulse lasers and the real DPS ones I am arguing for.

[LordNothing]

Cato Zilks, on 01 July 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

Well DMG/Dur can be misleading because it sets all damage rates = to 1 second. I prefer to look at DMG/.1Sec and DMG in 1 Sec to better guide the rate of damage. DMG in 1 Sec also highlights the differences between the PGI pulse lasers and the real DPS ones I am arguing for.

being a physics nut i like unit values. it gives you a number you can just multiply into any arbitrary contact duration and get a damage value. if however we are using a fixed server tick rate then damage/tick becomes intuitive. but its all proportional. 1.2 for a 10th of a second or 12 for the full second its all the same as far as damage/duration goes, its just a different scale.

Edited by LordNothing, 01 July 2017 - 03:21 PM.

[JadePanther]

only a few mechs are viable for CHLL.. And its basically anything with at least -10+ heatgen, lots of tonnage, and cooldown quirk. This makes a very short list.. but the bonus CHLL gets from bigger quirks is bigger than lesser weapons..

The only other viability is something like the kdk that can mount 2 CHLL and a bunch of other weapons for DPS.. Using the CHLL as high alpha material.. This mech has the sinks hardpoints and tonnage to make them feasable heatwise.. But without the quirks you are prolly better served using LPLs or PPC..

I really dont know what can be done to improve them other than raising thier heat penalty count to 3 and letting them be high alpha.. few mechs would have the tonnage and sinks to pull it off and the long cooldown and massive heat is the tradeoff for that.. improving the cooldown isnt gonna to much for a fix except for using a single CHLL.. The heat inefficiency is just too large..

high damage - high heat weapons only have one real use, large damage strikes.. And the heat on CHLL is so high its pretty much got built in heat scale.. Really only a kdk with std armor / structure, max engine HS, max DHS and 2CHLL can expect to to A) not alpha both and get over 50% heat dissapate all that heat before the cooldown is up...

[Khobai]

the problem with heavy lasers is that heavy lasers are only good on mechs that lack energy hardpoints and very few clan mechs lack energy hardpoints.

there simply is not a very high demand for the weapon. making it extremely niche.

but now that the beam duration has been lowered they can at least start to fill that niche role. they still need some heat adjustments though, especially the heavy large laser.


for example why would anyone ever take a CHLL over two CERML?

16 damage for 17 heat with a longer beam duration and more tonnage vs 14 damage for 12 heat and about the same range but less beam duration and less tonnage plus you get yellow pee lasers. the CERML are clearly better.

the only reason to ever take the CHLL is if youre severely limited on energy hardpoints and cant take two CERML instead

Edited by Khobai, 01 July 2017 - 04:54 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

I will actually go further and say that only a few clan mechs work well with any of the Heavy Lasers. The mechs that seem best suited to Heavy Lasers so far seem to be the Linebacker and Gargoyle at least among the ones I have tested. I can turn my Gargoyle into a brawling beast by mounting 6-7 HMLs at one ton each and using the rest of my tonnage to beat DHS. Same kind of goes for my Linebackers because I am able to get more bang for the buck out of the limited energy hard points and tonnage. However, I can't really get Heavy Lasers to work well enough on most my other chassis to make me want to swap out my current builds and Heavy Lasers absolutely don't mix well with existing energy weapons.

[Y E O N N E]

Viktor Drake, on 01 July 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

I will actually go further and say that only a few clan mechs work well with any of the Heavy Lasers. The mechs that seem best suited to Heavy Lasers so far seem to be the Linebacker and Gargoyle at least among the ones I have tested. I can turn my Gargoyle into a brawling beast by mounting 6-7 HMLs at one ton each and using the rest of my tonnage to beat DHS. Same kind of goes for my Linebackers because I am able to get more bang for the buck out of the limited energy hard points and tonnage. However, I can't really get Heavy Lasers to work well enough on most my other chassis to make me want to swap out my current builds and Heavy Lasers absolutely don't mix well with existing energy weapons.

Shadowcat, Mist Lynx also work well with them. The SHC has tons of room for heatsinks after loading up with twin cHLL and a cERML and the long cool-down on the cHML keeps the heat in line on the MLX.

[Top Leliel]

Heavy Laser cooldowns are an issue. If PGI wants them to have a burn duration, they should have a shorter cooldown.

Right now the HLL cooldown is 6, vs ERLL cooldown 3.75, for instance. It's ridiculous.

[Khobai]

Quote

Right now the HLL cooldown is 6, vs ERLL cooldown 3.75, for instance. It's ridiculous.

The heat is even more ridiculous. 17 heat is facemelting. And the weapon is worse in most ways than the CERPPC which is only 14 heat.

But youre right about the cooldown too

ERLL is 3.75+1.35 (5.1 total or 2.16 dps)
CHLL is 6+1.55 (7.55 total or 2.12 dps)

Doesnt make sense that the CHLL has lower dps than the CERLL. The CHLLs cooldown should be lowered from 6 to 5.5 probably. The CHLL should outdps all other large lasers except the large pulse (because dps is the only thing pulse lasers have going for them).

Edited by Khobai, 01 July 2017 - 08:12 PM.

[Cato Zilks]

JadePanther, on 01 July 2017 - 04:13 PM, said:

only a few mechs are viable for CHLL.. And its basically anything with at least -10+ heatgen, lots of tonnage, and cooldown quirk. This makes a very short list.. but the bonus CHLL gets from bigger quirks is bigger than lesser weapons..

So my problem has not been tonnage, but crit space. They take up so much dang space for little weight and I fill so many slots with DHS that I end up with tonnage to spare.

JadePanther, on 01 July 2017 - 04:13 PM, said:

The only other viability is something like the kdk that can mount 2 CHLL and a bunch of other weapons for DPS.. Using the CHLL as high alpha material.. This mech has the sinks hardpoints and tonnage to make them feasable heatwise.. But without the quirks you are prolly better served using LPLs or PPC..

I really dont know what can be done to improve them other than raising thier heat penalty count to 3 and letting them be high alpha.. few mechs would have the tonnage and sinks to pull it off and the long cooldown and massive heat is the tradeoff for that.. improving the cooldown isnt gonna to much for a fix except for using a single CHLL.. The heat inefficiency is just too large..

high damage - high heat weapons only have one real use, large damage strikes.. And the heat on CHLL is so high its pretty much got built in heat scale.. Really only a kdk with std armor / structure, max engine HS, max DHS and 2CHLL can expect to to A) not alpha both and get over 50% heat dissapate all that heat before the cooldown is up...

Even if we lowered the current duration, heat, and cooldown of the HLL by 20%, the CLPL would still have better range, shorter duration, better dmg/heat efficiency, better raw heat efficiency, and a shorter cooldown. The LPL is 2 more tons but takes up 2 slots instead of 3, and slots not tonnage tend to be the hold up for adding more DHS on laserboats.

As the C-LPL is currently designed, the C-HLL will always be a crappy alternative. The only real solution is to change the C-LPL, and the best way to do that is to fundamentally change how pulse lasers work.

Edited by Cato Zilks, 01 July 2017 - 10:28 PM.

[JadePanther]

Cato Zilks, on 01 July 2017 - 09:55 PM, said:

So my problem has not been tonnage, but crit space. They take up so much dang space for little weight and I fill so many slots with DHS that I end up with tonnage to spare.

Even if we lowered the current duration, heat, and cooldown of the HLL by 20%, the CLPL would still have better range, shorter duration, better dmg/heat efficiency, better raw heat efficiency, and a shorter cooldown. The LPL is 2 more tons but takes up 2 slots instead of 3, and slots not tonnage tend to be the hold up for adding more DHS on laserboats.

As the C-LPL is currently designed, the C-HLL will always be a crappy alternative. The only real solution is to change the C-LPL, and the best way to do that is to fundamentally change how pulse lasers work.

yep as it stands CHLL is really a headscratcher unless they maybe give some HLL quirks to mechs.. The only real tweakable value is the duration.. if u cut the duration down towards LPL rates its still not very competitive with the LPL on efficiency. But a duration higher than ERLL doesnt make it a better choice than either LPL or ERLL.. You could make the duration in between LPL and ERLL and argure that the case is that the huge heat ineffiecency is from a really fast discharge of energy at high potential..

[davoodoo]

Dont try to reinvent it.

In tt it was weapon for tonnage starved lights and mediums, give the same role here.
at worst er lasers duration
at worst er lasers cooldown
at best 6 smalls, 4 mediums or 2 larges all linked to their respective range brackets.

Watch heat do rest of the job, 30 ton ach will run up and unload 40 dmg from 4 heavies, but then itll be quickly overwhelmed by way cooler chasers with pulses if it makes mistake.

With these heat values it wont ever be used on laservomit.

Edited by davoodoo, 02 July 2017 - 05:59 PM.

[Reno Blade]

What HLL give is the ability to not boat.

what i mean?
e.g. Summoner base config use 1 E /1 B /1M slots, now with the 4ton HLL you have 2 more tons for your B/M slot weapons.
ofc it's more efficient to take 12 erSL on a Nova than HSL or HML, as you have the slots to take the advantage of it.
But now you can choose to take a 2xHLL + 4x DHS instead of 2xcERPPC for example... even if it is harder to hit with.

I would say the best goal would be:
Pulse for dps (fast rate of fire dakka)
- dmg: low (nerf)
- heat: low (buff)
- range: med
- tonnage: high
- duration: low (slight buff)
- cooldown: very low (high buff)

ER/STD Laser (medium stats)
- dmg: medium (nerf)
- heat: medium
- range: high/medium
- tonnage: low
- duration: medium
- cooldown: long (nerf)

Heavy Lasers (hard hitting, slow and sluggish)
- dmg: high
- heat: medium (buff)
- range: low
- tonnage: low
- duration: high
- cooldown: medium (buff)

with Pulse laser doing 1/2 to 1/4 cd/dmg/heat the balancing is much easier, as they will have a totally different feeling.
Then a small reducion in ER Laser dmg to make them "medium" go-to weapon in between.
Heavy Lasers then can get faster cooldown and less heat while having longer burn would increase their hit-and-run power without making them the "easy" upgrade.

Note for Heavy Laser beam duration:
I see the main reason to keep a longer beam compared to ER Lasers, even tho they have shorter range,... because the cooldown is way more important in brawling and is already limited by the high heat, IF you are boating too many. -> automatic dps limit.
And a long burn can be compensated by good aiming skill and surprise attacks.
At the same time, ER Lasers will have longer cooldown and less damage, so their dps is less than Pulses and less than Heavies, but they are easy enough to hit with and are also light and small.

[Gas Guzzler]

The problems with the Heavy laser family are:

Ghost heat limit too low - If I want a larger ghost-heat free alpha on a lighter mech, I should be taking HMLs, not ER MLs. As is currently, I can only take 4 HMLs for 40 damage, vs 6 ER MLs for 42 damage. Dumb.

They are super hot - I tried some HL loadouts on a MAD-IIC, and its just too damn hot, not worth the loss in range and extra duration for only a marginal increase in damage.

Duration - I would say this is fine if the issues mentioned above were fixed.

Frankly I don't see much point to heavy lasers, except for MAYBE HSLs and even then, the DPS is awfully limited. I guess they may see niche use on Shadow Cats or other hardpoint starved mechs, but... meh.

[JadePanther]

davoodoo, on 02 July 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

Dont try to reinvent it.

In tt it was weapon for tonnage starved lights and mediums, give the same role here.
at worst er lasers duration
at worst er lasers cooldown
at best 6 smalls, 4 mediums or 2 larges all linked to their respective range brackets.

Watch heat do rest of the job, 30 ton ach will run up and unload 40 dmg from 4 heavies, but then itll be quickly overwhelmed by way cooler chasers with pulses if it makes mistake.

With these heat values it wont ever be used on laservomit.

something that can run away and hide after firing the darn things once is about the only real use for it.. cant poke and trade cause the things have no range.. In a brawl your effed if u cant kill the enemy in one or 2 shots.. heck your pretty effed just by firing it once and having to wait an ungodly amount of time while your enemy strips that weapon you just fired off..

Its a one and run weapon.. and ghost heat kills any idea of that.. otherwise u could run in, fire one large alpha and run away to cool off.. If it wasent linked to just about everything in existence you could prolly do that..