72 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

As you know, Inner Sphere has omnimechs too.

Spoiler

An upgrade of the Blackjack BattleMech, the Blackjack OmniMech is a design that is shared between Luthien Armor Works and Irian BattleMechs Unlimited. The Blackjack has four permanently mounted Icarus jump jets that allow the 'Mech to jump up to one hundred and twenty meters. The Blackjack is protected by nine-and-a-half tons of armor giving it a respectable amount of protection for a 'Mech of it's size. The Blackjack is also built with a weight saving Alshain 50 Endo Steel chassis and a Nissan 200 XL Engine giving it a top speed of 64.8 kph. The use of advanced construction materials gives the Blackjack 26.5 tons of pod space, allowing it to carry an impressive weapons payload.

The primary configuration of the Blackjack is armed for long range combat with a pair of Ultra Autocannon/5s that can put twice as much volume of fire downrange as a standard Autocannon/5. For close combat, the Blackjack carries four Medium Lasers and four Machine Guns defend the 'Mech against infantry attacks

Spoiler

The Black Hawk-KU is an Inner Sphere version of the Clan Black Hawk OmniMech. In order to make it possible to copy the Black Hawk, the Black Hawk-KU is built ten tons heavier than its Clan counterpart. The Black Hawk-KU is built on a sixty ton chassis and is powered by a Vlar 300 XL Engine which propels it to a top speed of 86.4 kph. The Black Hawk-KU is armored with twelve and a half tons of Mitchel Argon armor giving it almost the maximum amount of protection for its weight. Also, mounted on the base chassis are five jump jets giving the Black Hawk-KU a jumping distance of up to one hundred and fifty meters in all of its configurations. The Black Hawk-KU has fourteen double heat sinks allowing it to dissipate a great deal of waste heat that are common to the configurations that fill the seventeen tons of pod space.

The primary configuration of the Black Hawk-KU carries six Medium Lasers as its primary weapons. These are backed up by four highly accurate Medium Pulse Lasers and two Small Lasers. Additionally, two more double heat sinks have been added over what is carried on the base chassis

Spoiler

Initially the direct result of a dubious goodwill gesture between enemy Houses during the Clan Invasion, the Firestarter OmniMech has proven to be a flexible and highly effective medium trooper design.

As part of technology exchange agreements between the Great Houses during the initial Clan Invasion, a seemingly duplicitous Coventry Metal Works offered full design specifications and manufacturing licenses for the overly-specialized Firestarter BattleMech to an utterly indifferent Luthien Armor Works. Thus when it was the Combine's turn to reciprocate, though CMW eagerly expected specifications to one of the Combine's newly developed OmniMechs, LAW responded by returning a set of specifications to slightly modified FS9-O OmniMech instead, citing that retooling one of Coventry's standard Firestarter lines would require less time to effect.

Ultimately overcoming a somewhat politically troubled birth, the OmniMech Firestarter has proven to be an highly effective and flexible design, with the Combine using it to replace other aging medium-weight workhorses such as the Phoenix Hawk, Wolf Trap and Trebuchet among its front-line forces, while both halves of the Federated Commonwealth instead used it as a recon focused replacement for the original 'Mech and by the FedCom Civil War as a command 'Mech for light 'Mech lances and companies. The only complaint many MechWarriors and technical crews have with the design is the sheer volume of fixed equipment the Firestarter carries, believing the permanently mounted jump jets, flamers and heat sinks unduly restricts the natural flexibility of the OmniMech.

The OmniMech FS9-O is ten tons heavier than its BattleMech cousin and the extra weight is put to good use. As a 'Mech, the Firestarter is well armored and maneuverable with its eight and a half tons of armor and six permanently mounted jump jets that allow the Firestarter to jump up to one hundred and eighty meters in all of its configurations. Most of the Firestarter's configurations are based around advanced electronic warfare equipment, many also tend to be specific to either the Draconis Combine, Lyran Alliance or Free Worlds League, utilizing weapons prefered and/or developed within those realms. A hold-over from its parent design, two permanently mounted Hotshot flamers pointing forward and rearward provide some offensive ability no matter what configuration is mounted.

In its primary configuration the Firestarter is built to stay at long ranges when facing an enemy. The primary weapons are a pair of Large Lasers. The Large Lasers provide the 'Mech with respectable long-range firepower. To allow the 'Mech to create cover for itself and to clear woods, the Firestarter Prime carries two extra flamers on top of its fixed pair, bringing the total to four. Finally, to allow the 'Mech to search out hidden units, the Prime carries a Beagle Active Probe.

Let that simmer down for a moment. IS has omnimechs, mechs that can change omnipods, with locked equipment. And then we realize that IS equipments are much larger, heavier too versus Clans', add in similarly heavy and larger weapons as opposed to Clan and their omnimechs.

Add that IS tech is just generally just worse than Clan Tech, IS XL engine dies on a lost Side-Torso. So IS omnimechs would suck, because of the completely limited builds due to immense tonnage constraints, with just worse tech. Unless god-quirked maybe.

So here is an idea: What if IS omnimechs could not change engine ratings, but change engine types? That means while the BlackJack Omnimech would be constrained to 200-rated engine, it can at least swap to LFE, eating up tonnage but less vulnerable.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 07 July 2017 - 09:45 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

i believe this would be a Good thing to add to the OmniMech Construction Rules,

it would allow IS OmniMechs more Choices, with out increasing the Power of Clan OmniMechs,
it would allow IS XL OmniMechs to swap to LFE engines, gaining Survivability for Tonnage,
and it would also allow STD OmniMechs like the Clan KingFisher to move to a C-XL,

Suggested this before, My Topic (HERE)


Edit-
Also i dont think the Rakshasa is an OmniMech,
i think its Listed as a BattleMech, not an OmniMech,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 07 July 2017 - 06:37 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Monkey Lover, on 07 July 2017 - 06:31 PM, said:

All the hardpoints with no downsides What could go wrong. lol

Probably low tonnage allotment for would-have-been-possibly good firepower.

[ccrider]

Yes.

[Khobai]

no

omnis have locked equipment

thats what makes them omnis

instead of turning omnis into battlemechs, we need to find more ways to make omnis different from battlemechs

[Tarogato]

Protip, the Rakshasa is a battlemech, not an omni.

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 07 July 2017 - 06:44 PM, said:

no

omnis have locked equipment

thats what makes them omnis

instead of turning omnis into battlemechs, we need to find more ways to make omnis different from battlemechs

what we have in MWO arnt True OmniMechs, as such we should change OmniMech Construction Rules for Balance,
in this way this Change wouldnt Make OmniMechs BattleMechs, but it would allow OmniMechs more Options,

[ccrider]

The templar is an omni that I want but unless the templar 3 is made it'll be do a with an is extra light. Most is on his are blocky and would suck unless we just put in the ones with high mounts for more goose waffle, ppc crap. I would rather they be viable with multiple builds.

[Khobai]

Quote

what we have in MWO arnt True OmniMechs

so make them true omnis. give them omnihardpoints.

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 07 July 2017 - 07:15 PM, said:

so make them true omnis. give them omnihardpoints.

so OmniMechs as per Lore would lose all their Hard Points,
instead be able to equip as many weapons as they have Tonnage & Crit Space,
(their is a 16Weapon Limit, in MechWarrior & BattleTech(AMS Counts as a Weapon)

this could also be Applied by allowing all OmniPods to be Equipped to any mech,
(such as allowing my SHC to equip my NVAs Arm Pods(6Energy Hard Points)


with this Change all OmniMechs would be better, but it may be hard for PGI to Model,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 07 July 2017 - 07:21 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 07 July 2017 - 07:15 PM, said:

so make them true omnis. give them omnihardpoints.

"True" Omnis don't have hardpoints period. Same goes for Battlemechs, too.

Really though, PGI is very unlikely to give special rules to the IS Omnis, given that IS and Clan Battlemechs share the same rules. I would personally like for PGI to release their own made up "Mk. 2" versions of the crappy Omnis that have their base chassis fully min-maxed out of the box, but this is also pretty unlikely.

Thus, it's best to just avoid IS Omnis other than a select few that have the potential to be at least average. We definitely should never have an Owens or Strider in MWO until PGI changes the Omni rules.

[FireStoat]

I would really, really like it to happen. I push a button, my Omnimech outfitted with its stock 8/8 pods becomes permanently locked so it never can swap a pod again. It's now a Battlemech, and uses those rules within MWO.

The only issue would be a matter of balance. The Stormcrow could now suddenly have the proper amount of heat sinks stored in the engine, or take both ferro and endo. The Timberwolf could swap to a 325 or 350 XL. The Hellbringer could suddenly have both endo and ferro. And the Nova.... oi. The issue would be specific stock variants of Omnimechs being now highly desirable due to their hardpoint count and placement and new options that open up, especially with the tech that is dropping on us this month.

I can't honestly say it would be overpowered. But I think I could honestly say it would require a LOT of testing to see what OP combos would crop up. I think I could speak for us all in that we are absolutely tired of an entire chassis and its variants being nerfed due to a single variant and what it can do with a particular loadout. Trusting PGI to be selective on this... It's not going to happen, not if we go off of their track record. I would like this change a lot, but I'm dubious as to how it would pan out.

[Khobai]

Quote

"True" Omnis don't have hardpoints period. Same goes for Battlemechs, too.

obviously.

but omnihardpoints is the closest equivalency

omnimechs should have 1-2 omnihardpoints each that let them mount any type of weapon

combined with swappable omnipods that would allow omnimechs to rival most of the perfect battlemechs in hardpoint configurations

Quote

Thus, it's best to just avoid IS Omnis other than a select few that have the potential to be at least average. We definitely should never have an Owens or Strider in MWO until PGI changes the Omni rules.

The only thing they need to do is make ISXL survive a side torso blowout. then IS omnis are fine.

why PGI is so obstinate about making ISXL survive side torso destruction I dont know. they prefer give all IS mechs absurd structure quirks and turn clan mechs into garbage trucks rather than just fix ISXL. It doesnt make any friggin sense.

Edited by Khobai, 07 July 2017 - 07:35 PM.

[Void Angel]

Inner Sphere Omnimechs should use Omnimech construction rules, just like Clan Omnimechs. The hard-locked equipment is there to counterbalance the ability to mix and match hardpoints, so it really doesn't make sense any other way. If you're worried about balance, here - don't be. At least, don't be worried about breaking the Omni construction rules in the name of balance; this could only end in tears. as it would make balancing the tech bases literally impossible. If the IS Omnis are balanced while being allowed to change engines, then nearly all Inner Sphere Battlemechs will be obsoleted; conversely, if Inner Sphere Battlemechs and Clan 'mechs are roughly balanced, the IS omnis would have to have really bad omnipods and architecture to avoid being too strong.

Allowing IS Omnimechs to have the best of both worlds would not solve IS/Clan balance issues without making nearly all of our existing 'mechs superfluous and outdated. A better way to ensure Inner Sphere Omnimechs are balanced would be to actually balance the tech bases, which is what they're trying to do with the update next month.

In other words, it's shockingly unlikely PGI would do this, as it is a bad idea and contrary to everything they've done with Omnimech/Battlemech construction rules - just like the last time this topic was posted.

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 07 July 2017 - 07:31 PM, said:

omnimechs should have 1-2 omnihardpoints each that let them mount any type of weapon

i would support this on OmniMechs as well as what is Proposed in the Topic OP,

[Valdarion Silarius]

No. There is a reason why an IS omnimech is called....an IS omnimech. If IS omni's were to miraculously break the rules and have swappable engine types, then I want the same exact thing for the clan omnimech side as well.

Edited by Arnold The Governator, 07 July 2017 - 07:40 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Allowing IS Omnimechs to have the best of both worlds would not solve IS/Clan balance issues without making nearly all of our existing 'mechs superfluous and outdated. A better way to ensure Inner Sphere Omnimechs are balanced would be to actually balance the tech bases, which is what they're trying to do with the update next month.

This.

And the best way to balance the tech bases right now is to change ISXL so it can survive side torso destruction

Then you can get rid of all the stupid IS structure quirks. And clan mechs can get their mobility back and dont need to be garbage trucks anymore.

And like 2 years from now when IS omnis enter the picture, theyll have the same exact engine that clan omnis use. Except it will take up 2 extra crit slots.

And to reward omnimechs more for having locked equipment give them omnihardpoints like I suggested.

Edited by Khobai, 07 July 2017 - 07:44 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Void Angel, on 07 July 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

Inner Sphere Omnimechs should use Omnimech construction rules, just like Clan Omnimechs. The hard-locked equipment is there to counterbalance the ability to mix and match hardpoints, so it really doesn't make sense any other way. If you're worried about balance, here - don't be. At least, don't be worried about breaking the Omni construction rules in the name of balance; this could only end in tears. as it would make balancing the tech bases literally impossible.

no it really wouldnt, Right now the OmniMech construction Rules here are MWO Specific,
as no other Game has OmniMech Construction like MWO does, in this instance if its not working it needs to change,
in this way, your not Breaking the Rules for Balance, your Changing the Rules to allow for Balance,

Void Angel, on 07 July 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

If the IS Omnis are balanced while being allowed to change engines, then nearly all Inner Sphere Battlemechs will be obsoleted; conversely, if Inner Sphere Battlemechs and Clan 'mechs are roughly balanced, the IS omnis would have to have really bad omnipods and architecture to avoid being too strong.

this change would in now way make OmniMechs OP, in any way,
remember its not Unrestricted Engine Swapping, this is only Changing the Engine Type not the Rating,
you can go from a 300XL to a 300LFE or a 300STD, but you cant go from a XL300 to a 250XL,
-
if you feel this could in any way be abused please post an example of a problem mech, thank you,

Void Angel, on 07 July 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

Allowing IS Omnimechs to have the best of both worlds would not solve IS/Clan balance issues without making nearly all of our existing 'mechs superfluous and outdated. A better way to ensure Inner Sphere Omnimechs are balanced would be to actually balance the tech bases, which is what they're trying to do with the update next month.

this wouldnt make OmniMechs Over Powered, or Too Strong, see above,

Void Angel, on 07 July 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

In other words, it's shockingly unlikely PGI would do this, as it is a bad idea and contrary to everything they've done with Omnimech/Battlemech construction rules - just like the last time this topic was posted.

you dont seem to understand what we are Arguing for, Changing engine Type,
we arnt Advocating Full Engine Customization when it comes to OmniMechs,

Arnold The Governator, on 07 July 2017 - 07:39 PM, said:

No. There is a reason why an IS omnimech is called....an IS omnimech. If IS omni's were to miraculously break the rules and have swappable engine types, then I want the same exact thing for the clan omnimech side as well.

i would support this, though the only Clan mech that would really benefit from this is the Kingfisher,

[Aim64C]

IS Omnis are pretty DOA for the most part without serious revisions to the rules or core gameplay.

I mean... except for those of us who aren't afraid to run in an XL... but this really just highlights the insanity of sticking to lore rules within a competitive shooter. MechWarrior 4 was one of the first MechWarrior games to really focus on the idea of competitive online play ... and they pretty much threw the construction rules out of the window... and for good reason.

Battletech was not designed as a competitive game with equal rules. It was designed as a tactics role playing game focused on modeling combat within a fictional world. There are, objectively, superior designs, weapons, technologies, etc. These serve as goals for linear growth within a game - the sense of becoming more capable/powerful. The challenges the players face are hardly ever 'balanced' or 'fair' - they are intended to be managed by a game master to keep the play interesting and appropriate (or... punishing for stupidity).

Mech 4 did the right thing by throwing out many of these construction rules and monkeying with the numbers to create a game that was more competitive. One of them being the normalization of engines.

It wasn't perfect - the very notion that players could pilot machines with a 500% difference in total tonnage with any kind of equality between chassis was not entertained. Game modes largely revolved around mech-on-mech combat and gravitated toward those who could carry the most firepower and put the most pinpoint damage onto the enemy in the least amount of time - but there was some variability in this formula and quite a few people found fun in playing their favorite 'mechs even if they weren't at the bleeding edge of competitive play.

MWO really needs to decide if it wants to be a competitive e-sport for a niche market...

or a more open gameplay environment with less focus on player-on-player competitiveness and more focus on team-on-team competitiveness (I keep saying it - think C&C: Renegade ).

My opinion is obvious - the core gameplay mechanic of MWO must shift away from 'tournament' style gameplay and more toward Team Fortress or C&C: Renegade style gameplay.

[Khobai]

Quote

you can go from a 300XL to a 300LFE or a 300STD, but you cant go from a XL300 to a 250XL,

except omnimechs cant swap engines. thats what makes them omnimechs.

it makes more sense to just fix the ISXL so it survives ST destruction. because thats the engine most omnimechs come with anyway.

Quote

My opinion is obvious - the core gameplay mechanic of MWO must shift away from 'tournament' style gameplay and more toward Team Fortress or C&C: Renegade style gameplay.

I think both should exist in MWO.

they should integrate quickplay into FW and make every match count for FW. and they should bring back the seperate queues for groups and pugs.

when you go to play a FW match your choices would be scoutmode, quickmode, or invasion.

scoutmode would be 4v4 and exactly the same
quickmode would be exactly the same but 8v8 instead of 12v12 and still single life
and invasion mode would be 12v12 and respawns

all three would contribute towards capturing planets in varying amounts

Edited by Khobai, 07 July 2017 - 07:54 PM.