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Balancing Ferro! As Per Faction & Per Endo!


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#41 Khobai

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 12:55 AM

if there was a reason to take standard structure over endo, then both light ferro and ferro would get used, depending on how many crit slots you needed.

for example if standard structure gave a +25% internal structure bonus, then an atlas would take standard structure over endo because the internal structure bonus would be a no brainer on the atlas.

but then the atlas has a choice to take light ferro or full ferro. if it takes light ferro it frees up more crit slots for the atlas. if it takes full ferro it frees up more tonnage at the expense of 7 more crit slots.

buffing standard structure makes both types of ferro viable.

Edited by Khobai, 14 July 2017 - 12:59 AM.


#42 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:14 AM

I prefer the idea of buffing standard structure, too.

It would even be a buff for some Clan Mechs that are stuck with standard structure and are thus always a bit inferior to the Clan mechs that got Clan Endo. And it would create a meaningful choice between the combination possbilities of Structure and Armor type used, without any clear winners.

#43 J0anna

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:20 AM

When will people realize that you can't balance components in a vacuum? You need to balance the end products. People fight in mechs, that's what you have to balance, not each individual component on a mech. While I might criticize PGI's decisions as much as the next person, at least I recognize that's what they are balancing and applaud them for trying.

Ferro is inferior to endo. Sure I would like my omnimechs with hard locked ferro to get more of a benefit, but what possible reason would you give for buffing the EBJ or ACH? Why would they need a buff? Not to mention, light ferro was very useful on the PTS, I used I on many mechs (LFE + light Ferro >>> Std + endo), sure I'd like it to be even better, but how can I justify it?

Sure a few CW weapons are useless garbage, but some are pretty good and will change the mechs you see on drops, I will be adding over a dozen new models, because some previously bad mechs just got a whole lot better (or at very least a whole lot more fun to play).

#44 Grus

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 07:47 AM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 13 July 2017 - 06:20 PM, said:

im fully expecting Tonnage Limits to be returned to 240 for both sides come Next Patch,
also as FP is only one part of MWO its best to not balance Everything around just that,
so it's ok to tweak the entire game and mess up endgame content?

#45 Grus

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 07:51 AM

In your OP you stated nothing about rebalancing tonnage, and I have seen or heard nothing that PGI will be rebalancing tonnage post patch.

#46 Grus

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 08:00 AM

I'm looking at this as a compound to exsisting IS advantages. I.e. proliferation of structure quirks out the a** and a higher HP pool to begin with. Now add skill tree and then add your armor buff... all things considered that's a HUGE health advantage over clan mechs and to further add to the equation more tonnage available, better brawling heat efficiency, and equivalent mobility.

#47 Hopeasusi

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 08:21 AM

View PostGrus, on 14 July 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:

I'm looking at this as a compound to exsisting IS advantages. I.e. proliferation of structure quirks out the a** and a higher HP pool to begin with. Now add skill tree and then add your armor buff... all things considered that's a HUGE health advantage over clan mechs and to further add to the equation more tonnage available, better brawling heat efficiency, and equivalent mobility.

Clan shark tears alert. Or a troll?

Tonnage advantage proofs that IS stuff is worse, cause they need it perform even remotely as well as Clans.
Seriously mate you just want clans to have their advantage and that does not go well in a PvP game.

Balance >>>>>> lore, everytime in a game like this.

If you ask me clans can keep their base tech advantage as long as IS gets better weapons than clans as balance. I think it could be a nice asymmetrical balance for the game. If not you need to balance base tech vs base tech or give IS proper quirks again(something PGI does not want).

#48 Grus

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 08:26 AM

View PostHopeasusi, on 14 July 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

Clan shark tears alert. Or a troll?

Tonnage advantage proofs that IS stuff is worse, cause they need it perform even remotely as well as Clans.
Seriously mate you just want clans to have their advantage and that does not go well in a PvP game.

Balance >>>>>> lore, everytime in a game like this.

If you ask me clans can keep their base tech advantage as long as IS gets better weapons than clans as balance. I think it could be a nice asymmetrical balance for the game. If not you need to balance base tech vs base tech or give IS proper quirks again(something PGI does not want).
just looking at tonnage; the only reason it's higher is due to population of more skilled players on clan side.. as per PGI. If this armor per gets added to the mix clan will be forced to go deep into the armor tree to be competitive with IS mech's rather than it being a situational reason to commit the SP to said tree.

Tonnage difference is not due to tech imbalance.

#49 Jay Leon Hart

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 09:48 AM

View PostKhobai, on 13 July 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

Again why would IS Ferro give better weight savings than Clan Ferro? That makes no sense.

Not touching on the rest of your post, I largely agree there are many ways to balance the Endo/FF/LFF dynamic.

However, *why* does it make no sense for something twice the size to offer better weight savings?

Any reason besides "because lore" would be appreciated.

View PostGrus, on 14 July 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:

to further add to the equation more tonnage available, better brawling heat efficiency, and equivalent mobility.

HAHAHA! No, not even close. *Maybe* your 2nd point, sometimes, at a stretch.

Jay's "easy fix" for IS FF & IS LFF

IS FF - slots from 14 to 7
IS LFF - slots from 7 to 4

Done. Dusted. NEXT!

#50 SMDMadCow

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 09:59 AM

View PostJay Leon Hart, on 14 July 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:


However, *why* does it make no sense for something twice the size to offer better weight savings?

Any reason besides "because lore" would be appreciated.


https://en.m.wikiped...wiki/Metal_foam

Maybe?

#51 Grus

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 10:34 AM

View PostJay Leon Hart, on 14 July 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

Not touching on the rest of your post, I largely agree there are many ways to balance the Endo/FF/LFF dynamic.

However, *why* does it make no sense for something twice the size to offer better weight savings?

Any reason besides "because lore" would be appreciated.


HAHAHA! No, not even close. *Maybe* your 2nd point, sometimes, at a stretch.

Jay's "easy fix" for IS FF & IS LFF

IS FF - slots from 14 to 7
IS LFF - slots from 7 to 4

Done. Dusted. NEXT!
I'm ok with the light Ferro change, no extra armor points. But halting the normal F? No I'd say 10 slots. Again no bonus armor points

This will either let you add one to two rubble heat sinks or 4 singles on normal and 1 or 3 for light.

Further increasing heat efficiency in the brawl. And at long range.

Sorry for the masses up words I'm on a cell.

#52 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 10:47 AM

View PostJay Leon Hart, on 14 July 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

Not touching on the rest of your post, I largely agree there are many ways to balance the Endo/FF/LFF dynamic.

However, *why* does it make no sense for something twice the size to offer better weight savings?

Any reason besides "because lore" would be appreciated.


HAHAHA! No, not even close. *Maybe* your 2nd point, sometimes, at a stretch.

Jay's "easy fix" for IS FF & IS LFF

IS FF - slots from 14 to 7
IS LFF - slots from 7 to 4

Done. Dusted. NEXT!

well PGI has been reluctant to reduce ant Crits, as to move away from the TT Source material,
which is why ive made this topic working with that, instead of trying to reinvent it,

#53 Ced Riggs

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 10:48 AM

First, let's fix OP pressing enter after every line hit's the end of his 640x480 monitor's textbox.

#54 Grus

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 11:08 AM

But still the added armor benefit needs to go. Crit space can be something to work with but again there is no reason the same tonnage mech on the IS side should get more armor points than the equivalent clan mech... because #balance ;)

#55 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 11:12 AM

View PostGrus, on 14 July 2017 - 07:47 AM, said:

so it's ok to tweak the entire game and mess up endgame content?

if your Talking about FP Tonnage limits those Limits Change,
partially because of Tech, partially because Faction Population,

View PostGrus, on 14 July 2017 - 07:51 AM, said:

In your OP you stated nothing about rebalancing tonnage, and I have seen or heard nothing that PGI will be rebalancing tonnage post patch.

it can be assumed as the Map will be reset to 3062ish, with Civil War(MWO Date 3067)
it would make sense to reset the Tonnage limits, as its more or less a Fresh Start for FP,

View PostGrus, on 14 July 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:

I'm looking at this as a compound to exsisting IS advantages. I.e. proliferation of structure quirks out the a** and a higher HP pool to begin with. Now add skill tree and then add your armor buff... all things considered that's a HUGE health advantage over clan mechs and to further add to the equation more tonnage available, better brawling heat efficiency, and equivalent mobility.

ive Changes abit of the Topic with some Input and feedback from @Pjwned,

View PostPjwned, on 13 July 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

The problem is that when you're talking about keeping the weight savings and then also giving double that amount in free armor, you're effectively saving more weight than endo.

=Things=

Now to be fair, you're not always going to get a lot of benefit from that extra free armor because it's spread out all over the mech, including on legs or even arms that are unimportant (either because they don't get get hit or it doesn't matter much if they're destroyed), but that's still quite a bit of benefit there just for 1 upgrade.

I still think it would be better to just raise the armor cap and not give any free armor, because extra survivability like that is pretty valuable and it could also get a little out of hand when combined with armor hardening in the skill tree, but if ferro had to be buffed like that then it could just give only as much free armor as it saves in weight--so that in the example above it would effectively save 3.3 tons--and that would be not as crazy good; I still don't like that though.

and have since Changes my Topic abit from Free Tonnage, to increased Tonnage Cap,

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 13 July 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

=Ferro Extra Armor Concept=
this Idea give Ferro a Bonus that not only does it reduce Armor Weight,
it would also increase the Maximum Armor to the Ferro Equipped Mech can Equip,
(this is an increase to a Mechs Max Armor, to be Balanced by Armors Weight)

IS-Ferro reduced Armor Weight by 12%, & takes up 14Crits,
it also Increases the Mechs Max Armor by 24% to make up for its Crit requirement,
(an 80Ton Assault(100CT Armor) could Equip +24CT Armor(36Armor=1Ton)

IS-LightFerro reduced Armor Weight by 6%, & takes up 7Crits,
it also Increases the Mechs Max Armor by 12% to make up for its Crit requirement,
(an 80Ton Assault(100CT Armor) could Equip +12CT Armor(34Armor=1Ton)

Clan-Ferro reduced Armor Weight by 20%, & takes up 7Crits,
it also Increases the Mechs Max Armor by 10% to make up for its Crit requirement,
(an 80Ton Assault(100CT Armor) could Equip +10CT Armor(38Armor=1Ton)

=Note=
80Ton Assault Mech Example is only an Example, and not Locked to the mechs CT,
Ferro Max Armor Increase would be Global and added to all Locations on the Mech,

this would mean Taking Ferro would allow you to Equip More Armor but at a Cost of Weight,
this would help to balance this, as it removes the benefit for Ferro being for Just Weight Savings,
(an AS7 MaxArmor +Ferro will save 2Tons, but will Spend 4Tons to get to its new Max Armor)

this moves Ferro for a worse Weight Savings tool vs Endo,
to its own Upgrade Taken for the Purpose of making a Mech More Tanky,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 14 July 2017 - 11:19 AM.


#56 Grus

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 11:18 AM

That last part could be interesting, so now we are back to build choose rather than blanket buff. This I'm ok to explore.

#57 TheArisen

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 11:18 AM

Why don't we all agree to just get these ideas to the PTS or for Chris to consider?

#58 Grus

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 11:21 AM

View PostTheArisen, on 14 July 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

Why don't we all agree to just get these ideas to the PTS or for Chris to consider?
would be fun actually, code 3 different variants or the Ferro for is and clan as type 1 2 3 and let us play around.

#59 Jay Leon Hart

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 11:22 AM

View PostSMDMadCow, on 14 July 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:


Perhaps I'm reading that wrong, but that seems to be larger and lighter, so supports what I was saying and not what I was arguing against.

To clarify - the larger thing should be lighter, because it has to occupy more space, whereas currently the smaller thing is lighter, because lore.

#60 kf envy

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 11:23 AM

the FF is fine and PGI already doubled the armor of all mechs. just git gud





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