675 replies to this topic

[Kaptain]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2017 - 06:49 PM, said:

Nope, I meant what I said. This is what I run and it wrecks. I did get the speed wrong, though, only 50 kph (but I gave mine half the speed tweak by skipping Operations entirely).

The Mauler has stripped arms because it doesn't need them. The Annihilator actually has to use its arms and that is bad because they are lower and wider than the torso guns. Torso guns on the Mauler are far more condensed and offer superior convergence. It's also pretty good at spreading damage and it can start firing sooner than the Annihilator as it crests the hill or rounds the corner.

Thats a great build. In my mind I had an ultra in each ST (derp) and didn't have the slots for the 3xac5s. I suppose the comparison is 5xultra Anni vs m90 and that's pretty even I would think. I agree the mauler hard points are advantages. Maybe they won't give the ac5 family gh after all. I hope they don't

Edited by Kaptain, 15 July 2017 - 07:02 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

I mean, there's no need to give the 5-family ghost heat. It's just 25 damage and it doesn't come out at a rate that 4x UAC/10 did, and look at all the weight it takes (42 tons of guns!).

[cougurt]

at this point i'd almost like to see them throw out ghost heat entirely and instead lower the overheat threshold and increase the rate of heat dissipation. i'm not necessarily suggesting this as a solution, but i'd be interested to see how the game plays in its current state without ghost heat.

[Tarl Cabot]

Mcgral18, on 15 July 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:

As for the LFE...really, PGI?

REALLY?!

The same penalties as the Clam XL, despite being outright inferior?
Lack of ANY balance with the XLs?

You make me sad.

Considering that PGI is staying with their current, no real engine crit system but using that one rule set, most should have known better. Though I am not sure if that is really a saving light in the dark or a firefly simply lost in the dark by itself though....

https://mwomercs.com...d-chris-lowrey/

Quote

The final balance point we can briefly highlight now involves Engine types. Better balance across the Standard, XL, and Clan XL Engine types is a major change that I am heavily pushing for. It's currently in the very early stages of evaluation, with gameplay and technical considerations to be made. At this time, there is no solid ETA or info I can provide, but it will definitely be something we look at addressing after the introduction of new tech.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 15 July 2017 - 07:31 PM.

[Kaptain]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

I mean, there's no need to give the 5-family ghost heat. It's just 25 damage and it doesn't come out at a rate that 4x UAC/10 did, and look at all the weight it takes (42 tons of guns!).

It may not be the same but it is close if memory serves.

5xUltra5s
5x5x2 = 50 every 1.66
7/1.66=4.5ish
50x4.5 is 225

4xultra10s
4x10x2 = 80 damage ever 2.5
7/2.5= 2.8(3)
80x2.8 is 224 (it's actually worse at dps but less likely to jam?)
80x3 is 250

250 damage over 7 seconds needs ghost heat but 225 does not?
25 crits vs 28 means the 10s need an XL and the 5s don't
45 tons vs 52 means the 10s need an XL and the 5s don't
Pretty sure the ultra 5 build gets 12dhs and the 10s only 10
Heat on an ultra 5 is 1.5 (I think)
Heat on ultra 10s is 4? (the point is it's a lot more)
16 projectiles for the 10s * 2.8(3) = 48 total
10 projectiles for the 5s 4.5 =45 total

I suppose it's not the sustained dps they were looking at just the burst of bang bang.

40+40=80
25+25 is only 50
Sure, I get that
But once it gets to an encounter longer than a poke the ultra5 are right on the tale of the
Ultra 10s. They are cooler, smaller and lighter weight making the build LFE capable and thus even more survivable.

Again I'm not advocating for anything I just think it's "interesting" the 10s get GH when the nearly as powerful, cooler running and more survivable ultra 5 build doesn't.

Edited by Kaptain, 15 July 2017 - 08:04 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Mcgral18, on 15 July 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:

As for the LFE...really, PGI?

REALLY?!


The same penalties as the Clam XL, despite being outright inferior?
Lack of ANY balance with the XLs?

You make me sad.

I was certainly surprised to see that(and feel the LFE should have no penalties as it's already heavier than the cXL), but to be honest the IS is gaining a lot in tech here, and the Gauss+Pepsi heat scale change is going to hurt clams much more, so *shrugs* may as well see where things end up vs. getting Jimmie's rustled.

[Kaptain]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

I was certainly surprised to see that(and feel the LFE should have no penalties as it's already heavier than the cXL), but to be honest the IS is gaining a lot in tech here, and the Gauss+Pepsi heat scale change is going to hurt clams much more, so *shrugs* may as well see where things end up vs. getting Jimmie's rustled.

I don't agree with no penalty but I would like to see the penalty reduced on IS LFE. Maybe only half the heat pen and the same speed pen. Just something for the lost weight

As for GH on clan ppc+guass hurting them maybe we can remove some of the agility pen the ngr and tw got

Edited by Kaptain, 15 July 2017 - 07:57 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Kaptain, on 15 July 2017 - 07:37 PM, said:

It may not be the same but it is close if memory serves.

5xUltra5s
5x5x2 = 50 every 1.66
7/1.66=4.5ish
50x4.5 is 225

4xultra10s
4x10x2 = 80 damage ever 2.5
7/2.5= 2.8
80x2.8 is 224 (it's actually worse at dps but less likely to jam?)

224 damage over 7 seconds needs ghost heat but 225 does not?
25 crits vs 28 means the 10s need an XL and the 5s don't
45 tons vs 52 means the 10s need an XL and the 5s don't
Pretty sure the ultra 5 build gets 12dhs and the 10s only 10
Heat on an ultra 5 is 1.5 (I think)
Heat on ultra 10s is 4? (the point is it's a lot more)

I suppose it's not the sustained dps they were looking at just the burst of bang bang.

40+40=80
25+25 is only 50
Sure, I get that
But once it gets to an encounter longer than a poke the ultra5 are right on the tale of the
Ultra 10s. They are cooler, smaller and lighter weight making the build LFE capable and thus even more survivable.

Again I'm not advocating for anything I just think it's "interesting" the 10s get GH when the nearly as powerful, cooler running and more survivable ultra 5 build doesn't.

That's the thing.

10's hit harder out of the gate. After double tap number 2 (160vs 100 damage) you're almost certainly jamming/twisting/whatever and are josing some or all damage output.

So those 10's front loaded a lot more damage. The 5's got it out faster, but firing 5 at a time means it's very likely at least one is jamming on each double tap, and the 5's need three double taps without jams to still come a bit short of the 10's.

So, yeah, that's why.

After all, you can run 5 or even 6 uac5's on a Direwolf now, and you may have noticed it's not a problem now, and wasn't a problem before the KDK arrived. It wasn't even a problem before they aginerfed the Direwolf.

[Wintersdark]

Koniving, on 15 July 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

Side note, I've been wondering if anyone noticed they were very specific about Gauss and ER PPC being combined, with no mention of Gauss and PPC, heavy PPC, Light PPC, Snub PPC, or Heavy/Light Gauss + other PPCs..

And then, since they linked it, they gave a big buff exclusively to the ER PPC...

....So when is PGI going to say we're over reacting and that only Gauss + ER PPC are linked?

Because I know it's coming.

Hmmm? No, they said "PPC weaponry" and also mentioned clans too,so clearly that includes others:

Quote

Inner Sphere and Clan Standard Gauss Rifle
• Heat Penalty group is now linked with PPC.

Gauss Rifle Design Notes: For some time now, Gauss/PPC combinations have skewed much higher than nearly every other weapon combination when it came to pure pinpoint damage and kill potential. As a result, we've had to balance all Gauss and PPC weaponry changes around that combination, rather than what was best for the weapons individually. This was a mentality we carried with us into the New Tech PTS testing, attempting to preserve the weapon combo. That testing showed the various Gauss/PPC combinations provided with the release of new tech reliably outperformed nearly everything else on the PTS; when taken outside the combinations however, the individual weapons vastly under-performed from where we wanted them to be.
As a result, and with the current behavior of the combinations prior to the release of new tech also in mind, we have re-evaluated our stance on the combinations. This change will link Gauss and PPC weaponry together for the purpose of scaling Heat penalties. This will allow us to better balance the individual weapons as needed in the future, both within the existing lineup of weaponry, and with the new weapon types introduced in this patch.

Also, the way heat scale works, the weapons are simply grouped. Gauss was added to the PPC group, which includes all PPC's.

[Kaptain]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2017 - 08:00 PM, said:

That's the thing.

10's hit harder out of the gate. After double tap number 2 (160vs 100 damage) you're almost certainly jamming/twisting/whatever and are josing some or all damage output.

So those 10's front loaded a lot more damage. The 5's got it out faster, but firing 5 at a time means it's very likely at least one is jamming on each double tap, and the 5's need three double taps without jams to still come a bit short of the 10's.

So, yeah, that's why.

After all, you can run 5 or even 6 uac5's on a Direwolf now, and you may have noticed it's not a problem now, and wasn't a problem before the KDK arrived. It wasn't even a problem before they aginerfed the Direwolf.

OK yeah I can see your point about the second double-tap for sure.

As for the DW.
Are Jam chances and Jam durations the same clan vs IS though? (I genuinely don't know)
Also, I don't know the value but Clan Ultra5s don't fire 2 on a double tap, 5 each, 10 damage total, right? I'm not sure about the damage but I think only the ultra2 and LBX series is FLPP for clan ya?

Still the 2nd doubletap point stands regardless. Thank you for the perspective.

Edited by Kaptain, 15 July 2017 - 08:25 PM.

[Kaptain]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

Also, the way heat scale works, the weapons are simply grouped. Gauss was added to the PPC group, which includes all PPC's.

I agree with your interpretation though Chris should have phrased it:

Inner Sphere and Clan Standard Gauss Rifle
"Standard Guass Rifles are now linked with the PPC heat penalty group"

I like the new Chris guy far more than I ever cared for Paul but between patch notes and the bad wording of the event premium color description post you can tell that in game (If he ever plays, no evidence yet) he would be the guy saying: "The enemy is on the left/right" Or "I need help over here" or "Behind us" without ever giving out a grid. (Or maybe I'm just bitter about my Hellblau and Azurite still

But ya, more thought needs to be put into the description of things that have multiple interpretations. I have family that does this all the time: "Its in the drawer in the kitchen." as if there is only one drawer in the kitchen.

Edited by Kaptain, 15 July 2017 - 08:34 PM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I'm glad to see the change in direction for balancing ER lasers. More heat and cooldown is much better IMO. Lets them keep their strength and their identity compared to other lasers.

[NocturnalBeast]

Just delay the patch and advance the timeline until the post-Jihad era and spend a few months to get all the tech just right and then update the game. This way Clans and IS will be almost identical, since the Word of Blake taught the rest of the IS how to put Clan tech on their Mechs as well as creating new tech that is even more advanced than Clan tech.

[Wintersdark]

Anyone done the math again? I'm feeling lazy, but as of the last pts the Heavy Lasers (at least medium and large) where objectively worse in every situation than cerml or cmpl. Has this changed? I noted the buffed heavy large damage substantially, and I think heavy small too, what about the medium?

Durations are still long, but at the 18 damage the large heavy sounds impressive at least, and even partial burns are gonna hurt.

[Wintersdark]

Ed Steele, on 15 July 2017 - 09:14 PM, said:

Just delay the patch and advance the timeline until the post-Jihad era and spend a few months to get all the tech just right and then update the game. This way Clans and IS will be almost identical, since the Word of Blake taught the rest of the IS how to put Clan tech on their Mechs as well as creating new tech that is even more advanced than Clan tech.

god, no thanks.

I want new toys now. And there's no evidence pgi taking longer will result in better balance, anyways.

Maybe it's just me, but I find when there's major changes in the pipe, I tend to lose all interest in playing till they are implemented. I've spent a lot of time pondering builds I want to try, and am not really interested in just "spinning my wheels" with things as they currently are.

[Kaptain]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2017 - 09:21 PM, said:

god, no thanks.

I want new toys now.

Maybe it's just me, but I find when there's major changes in the pipe, I tend to lose all interest in playing till they are implemented.

Same. I've spent a ton of time in SSW building mechs and I want to try them in MWO asap!

[Ripper X]

Standard and heavy Gauss should be linked to all types of PPCs. The increased heat penalty for standard ppc/gauss meta won't change much. Your looking at what around 10 extra heat? That's way less than 3 PPCs and does more damage. A little more time cooling down before a 3 shot alpha. Whoopty doo.
Now what would really be broken is if the heavy Gauss doesn't get ghost heat. Heavy Gauss/gauss/ppc combos would wreck face.

People keep complaining about changes. Has been stated frickin every patch that things WILL change. Expect more changes in the future. Expect MWO to never stop changing. Seriously folks.

Edited by Ripper X, 15 July 2017 - 09:34 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2017 - 09:21 PM, said:

god, no thanks.

I want new toys now. And there's no evidence pgi taking longer will result in better balance, anyways.

Maybe it's just me, but I find when there's major changes in the pipe, I tend to lose all interest in playing till they are implemented. I've spent a lot of time pondering builds I want to try, and am not really interested in just "spinning my wheels" with things as they currently are.

Don't get me wrong, I would rather have strict adherence to lore than "balance", but we all know that PGI responds to the noisiest complainers and balances accordingly. Advancing to the point where Clan and IS are basically the same would be the best way to keep the game lore-accurate and be as close to "balanced" as the complainers want.

[Kaptain]

Ripper X, on 15 July 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

Standard and heavy Gauss should be linked to all types of PPCs. The increased heat penalty for standard ppc/gauss meta won't change much. Your looking at what around 10 extra heat?

No I don't think so. http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

2regPPC and one guass is 11.97 extra heat
Same for 2guass and one reg right? Since they are all in the same family.

Or if you are running a mauler with 2xGR and 2xPPC its 32 extra heat to alpha

Clan (The only mechs I see using this as meta)
2xGR+1ERPPC is 17heat extra
2xGR+1ERPPC is 47heat

Ripper X, on 15 July 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

Now what would really be broken is if the heavy Gauss doesn't get ghost heat. Heavy Gauss/gauss/ppc combos would wreck face.

A single HGR sucks and two of them are just ok.

The only mech that can mount 2 of them AND a regular/ER ppc is the Annihilator... 6 tons of ammo in a mech with an optimal range of 180, that moves at 48kph... Meh. Yuck!

Not sure what you are on about honestly.

Edited by Kaptain, 15 July 2017 - 09:49 PM.

[StormDll]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

I was certainly surprised to see that(and feel the LFE should have no penalties as it's already heavier than the cXL), but to be honest the IS is gaining a lot in tech here, and the Gauss+Pepsi heat scale change is going to hurt clams much more, so *shrugs* may as well see where things end up vs. getting Jimmie's rustled.

Eah. And Clan mech need have + 20-25% armor too. 60 tonn sphere mech have armor 80-85 tonn clanmech. And -10 heat.
You want 150 tonn sphere mech? You have this mech! Any 100 tonn sphere assault have armour 140-150 tonn mech.
LFE should have no penalties? Mb. Sphere should have no invisible noweight armor. 60 tonn mech must have armour 60 tonn mech. 100 tonn mech must have armour 100 tonn mech.

Edited by StormDll, 15 July 2017 - 09:47 PM.