675 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Kaptain, on 15 July 2017 - 11:00 PM, said:

Sure but when you can only carry 6 or so tons of ammo at 5 shots each are you really going to use it at range? Or are you going to cringe every time you pull the trigger?

15 alphas of 30 damage at long range is not scary, its not even good.
15 alphas of 40 damage at medium range still not good.
15 alphas of 50 damage at short range? Better. But it can play the poke game and the 5 sec cooldown+charge time is not so good.
15 alphas at brawling range for 60 damage is pretty dang good on paper but it still has a long list of drawbacks and at this range there are a number of better loadouts. AND it somehow has to get to this range at 48-52kph and once it is there, it can't escape.

Maybe it will be different in a 12v12 game but in pts It sucked IMO. I know that the cool down was buffed by 1 sec but still. The range is short, the charge up is long, the cooldown is long, its fragile and the ammo per ton sucks, its huge, its bulky, Its a ticking time bomb AND you have to run a std engine.

If anyone sees a mech running 2 HGR just hit it in the back. You know they are in the STs and they take up almost the entire thing. Bingo bango that mech just lost at-least half its firepower, if not half the mech due to GR explosion. HGRs are a fragile 11 slot liability.

It's funny how often people disregard ammo when looking at weapon performance on paper. ATM's had a comparable problem on the PTS, where those 72 missiles per ton made the "1 damage range" utterly useless: Firing in that range just burnt ammo fast but did no appreciable damage, and left you without ammo to use once you got close. Really glad they went to 90 missiles per ton, though I'd still avoid using ATM's at 1 damage range unless it was absolutely needed.

While some argued you don't need more ammo going to 12v12 from 4v4, I definitely disagree. Maybe if you're in a nice team oriented environment where everyone is relatively equally skilled, but in the Real World [solo queue play] you absolutely need a lot more ammo, because you damn well may need to carry hard.

[MovinTarget]

Suspect there'll be some tequirking in the months to come...

[Wintersdark]

MovinTarget, on 16 July 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:

"Soon®"

Yeah, in the most sarcastic sense

Quote

In all seriousness, its great in theory but unless you rope off to keep out the guys don't care about things... just derping for the next mechbay it will be very frustrating for those that crave immersion...

This.

As much as the theory sounds fandupuloustic, an actual design is incredibly hard to come across.

After all, you need to account for the fact that we don't really have an economy at all right now, and that a lot of players don't play Faction Play at all (but still earn cbills), and need to have a good gaming experience just playing solo.

For an economy to work, you need to have more than an Arena PvP game. We all would like to have more than an Arena PvP game, but... MWO is the MWO we have. Now it's a catch 22 sort of thing - we can't add logistics because we don't have an economy, we can't have an economy because we don't have logistics... Basically, you need to add a WHOLE LOT of stuff, basically make a whole additional Battletech game, in order for this to work.

By additional Battletech game, I mean a full game outside of the battles, essentially a strategy game that uses MWO's combat engine to resolve conflicts. And while yes, this certainly sounds awesome (Sploosh!) that's developing a whole secondary game on top of an existing game, something much more difficult than developing another separate game (which they are already doing).

But, PGI can't logistically do that. It's way too much design, development, and to be frank, while I think PGI does a remarkably good job of delivering good stompy robots battles, their UI work is atrocious. The likelyhood of it working out is quite low, the cost extremely high.

Without that... You'd just be introducing a s**tshow. Adding economies to a game like this is extraordinarily complex.

[Wintersdark]

MovinTarget, on 16 July 2017 - 07:34 AM, said:

Suspect there'll be some tequirking in the months to come...

Yeah, I think that's very likely.

I suspect we're going to see IS vs. Clan parity now, or even a lead IS side. Maybe some easing up on Clam weapon nerfs, some reduction of quirks.

Not complete, as the LFE < cXL still, but the LFE does allow a massive increase in IS mech strength, while IS ER lasers and such serve to reduce/remove the IS weakness in the 500-700m range, and the new HPPC and SNPPC are very solid shorter range PPFLD weapons.

This is a very good time for the IS, but it's pretty much certainly going to precede a round of quirk reductions.


And for this, I'm deeply thankful. I love quirks as a way to bring up mechs that are stuck as underperformers due to geometry or other twists of mech design fate, but I really hate having to have such broad quirks on practically everything because a whole faction underperforms.

[MovinTarget]

We need to start a pool and lay bets on the new hot-button reason why clams will scream "IS OP PLZ NERF" and the IS "Clamz OP PLZ NERF"

[Wintersdark]

MovinTarget, on 16 July 2017 - 07:59 AM, said:

We need to start a pool and lay bets on the new hot-button reason why clams will scream "IS OP PLZ NERF" and the IS "Clamz OP PLZ NERF"

I bet it'll start with:

"We've been worse than the clans for 4 years, and now when we're finally equal PGI is nerfing everything because IS can't possibly be allowed to win!"

and

"See? All our weapons are trash, IS has better versions of everything, new stuff as well, and quirks too!"

[Genesis23]

whats happens to the old UAC5 quirks on IS mechs like the Orion-1V? will they stay as UAC5 or changed into general UAC quirks?

[Jep Jorgensson]

Anybody else notice the timeline/situation shift? It is supposed to be 3067 and in the midst of the FedCom Civil War (which is why PGI has been selling us Civil War mechpacks) but now they are saying 3057 despite all the 3067 tech they are giving to the IS and it is going to be back to IS vs Clans. I know I should know better than to have any expectations regarding PGI and all, but it is still a bit disappointing that they dropped the ball yet again.

ATM's are still $hit.

As for the new complaints:

IS: "Clans are still OP because their weapons are better!"

I would like to know how after this next update though.

Clan: "IS is getting a ton of new toys to play with!"

Which is entirely true and has been from the start, but whatever. I am mostly just pissed that they are nerfing ATM's and micros before they are even out of the gate (meaning we are down to just one viable new weapon system, (HL's)).

ATM's are still $hit.

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 16 July 2017 - 09:00 AM.

[WeekendWarrior]

Jep Jorgensson, on 16 July 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

I am mostly just pissed that they are nerfing ATM's and micros before they are even out of the gate (meaning we are down to just one viable new weapon system, (HL's)).

There have been several people in this thread trying to tell guys like you that ATMs have actually been buffed since PTS, but i guess that requires actually reading posts written by others than yourself.

[Dee Eight]

WeekendWarrior, on 16 July 2017 - 04:00 AM, said:

Anyway, a IS Mech using Clantech DHS, Endo, Ferro, XL Engine and Weapons is called a Clan Secondliner.
Are Clan BattleMechs more powerful than Clan OmniMechs in this game?

Yes. Very often they are. Omnis are simply re-configurable in the field more easily than straight battlemechs. There are omni's in the clan second line formations also in the lore. They are not automatically better and there are a number of battlemechs much preferred to omni's by clan warriors in the lore, and in this game as well.

Currently in game, the best Clan assault in terms of both agility and weapons payload combined is actually the Highlander IIC. An Executioner-Prime has more agility (50 deg turn rate, 70 deg torso twist) but less available tonnage for equipment choices (26.5 tons) and that's due to it being locked into among other things, carrying j4 ump jets, FF armor, 16 DHS, MASC and a 380XL engine. A gargoyle has more agility still (55 deg turn rate, 90 deg torso twist) but still less tonnage (21.5 tons) due to the 400XL engine, 16DHS, and FF armor. Now the HGN2C in terms of agility is 45 deg turn rate, 85 deg torso twist range to either direction and in payload, if you fit the largest XL engine available for its max rating (325XL), and an equal # of DHS as the executioner and gargoyle are locked into taking (16) and the same FF armor both are also locked into taking, you're left with 41.5 tons of equipment choices. Even if you fit the maximum 3 JJ to bring it close to the Exe-Prime you're still at 35.5 tons And that's with nearly maximum armor with 556 out of a possible 558 compared to the gargoyle-prime at 420 pts and the executioner-prime at 516 points. which is more than the executioner or gargoyle come with. But the HGN2C has the option to run Endo steel instead of the FF armor if the player so chooses. The jump jets can be omitted again, if the player so chooses. The HGN2C with endo steel and standard armor instead of FF armor and standard structure gets 1.6 tons more to work with and that's in a mech doing 58.5 (without speed tweak nodes).

In comparison a kodiak btw, which has more payload available (with a roughly equal speed of XL engine fitted, 16 DHS, and 556 pts of FF armor gets 46 tons left over) but a lot less agility (depending on the variant 30 to 32 deg turn rate and only 60 degrees of torso twist). The Supernovas are basically identical payload to the HGN2C but less agile (37-40 deg turn rate, same torso twist as HGN2C) and the Marauder 2C are less agile still (35 to 37 deg turn rate and 70 deg twist) and also again going for roughly the same speed as the HGN2C in the example above with the same FF armor and 16 DHS, ends up with 39.8 tons of equipment after maxing the armor at 526 pts. The Mad Cat Mk2 being another battlemech, not an omni, stands to be in the same category as the HGN2C and Supernova for payload but is even less agile still (35 deg turn rate and same twist) as the other two 90 tonners. Worst still...if you take acceleration into consideration as part of the agility of all six assaults above... the Kodiaks are the worst at 6.2 to 8.5, supernovas are 10.8 to 15.4, MAD2Cs are 10.8 to 13.1, HGN2C are 20.02, MadCat2s are all 10.8, gargoyles are 29.29 to 29.99, and executioners are 24.63 without using the MASC.

So in conclusion...yes the clan battlemechs are in fact...more powerful than the Clan Omni Mechs in the game thus far as potential weapons payload is concerned at the very least.

[Gasoline]

Jep Jorgensson, on 16 July 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

Anybody else notice the timeline/situation shift? It is supposed to be 3067 and in the midst of the FedCom Civil War (which is why PGI has been selling us Civil War mechpacks) but now they are saying 3057 despite all the 3067 tech they are giving to the IS and it is going to be back to IS vs Clans. I know I should know better than to have any expectations regarding PGI and all, but it is still a bit disappointing that they dropped the ball yet again.

I thought it's a typo, otherwise we wouldn't get a Mad Cat MKII (introduced 3066), Cougar (3058), MRMs (3058), LBX (3058), Ultra ACs (3062), RAC (3062), et cetera...

[Saber Avalon]

Jep Jorgensson, on 16 July 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

Anybody else notice the timeline/situation shift? It is supposed to be 3067 and in the midst of the FedCom Civil War (which is why PGI has been selling us Civil War mechpacks) but now they are saying 3057 despite all the 3067 tech they are giving to the IS and it is going to be back to IS vs Clans. I know I should know better than to have any expectations regarding PGI and all, but it is still a bit disappointing that they dropped the ball yet again.

ATM's are still $hit.

As for the new complaints:

IS: "Clans are still OP because their weapons are better!"

I would like to know how after this next update though.

Clan: "IS is getting a ton of new toys to play with!"

Which is entirely true and has been from the start, but whatever. I am mostly just pissed that they are nerfing ATM's and micros before they are even out of the gate (meaning we are down to just one viable new weapon system, (HL's)).

ATM's are still $hit.

Actually, the Clan civil war (Called the "Refusal War" or "War of Refusal") is going on in 3057, it's when Clan Wolf-in-Exile becomes a thing. The Clan's loss at the Battle of Tukayyid meant the clans were forced into a 15 year truce with the Inner Sphere. Ulric (ilKhan of the clans) was charged with conspiracy to destroy a Clan's genetic heritage, the same charge that had Clan Wolverine wiped from existence. The charge came from the crusader elements in his own clan, so instead of infighting with Clan Wolf he moved the charge to the Clan Grand Council. He was voted, narrowly, as guilty. The Falcon's didn't even expect that vote, they figured Ulric would be removed as ilKhan and the truce repealed, and the invasion would continue.

Ulric then issued a Trial of Refusal over the verdict and bid his entire clan, including the crusader elements, in his defence. Basically making it a Trail of Annihilation against the Jade Falcons, without calling one or having the grounds for one. Wolf-in-Exile was created out of the Warden wolves and sent away, to preserve the clan under Khan Phelan Ward. The crusader elements were put under Ulric's personal Galaxy and forced them to fight the Falcons... he basically manipulated his charges to eliminate the crusaders, in his own clan and the largest crusader clan. At the same time, due to the losses on both sides, even if the truce was repudiated the clans would be so broken from their infighting that they wouldn't be in a position to advance a continued invasion.

So PGI got it partially right, there is a civil war going on at this time, they just called it by the wrong name or got them mixed up. Unsurprisingly. I really wish they'd get someone to fact check lore for them. They even missed that Clan Diamond Shark was a third clan included in the invasion reinforcements. They won a Trail of Refusal, along with the Nova Cats, to be next in line if more clans should be activated. BEFORE the Steel Vipers. Yet Vipers are in and Diamond Sharks are nowhere to be seen.

Edited by Saber Avalon, 16 July 2017 - 09:53 AM.

[Commander A9]

Still no 1st Somerset Strikers decal... :'(

I'm willing to spend money on it...doesn't that mean anything?

[Jep Jorgensson]

WeekendWarrior, on 16 July 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

There have been several people in this thread trying to tell guys like you that ATMs have actually been buffed since PTS, but i guess that requires actually reading posts written by others than yourself.

I read both them and the notes and tested them in the PTS. The buffs are all minor. It still has a min range, half the ammo per ton as LRM's, no word regarding missile health since it fires only 60% of the projectiles as LRM's which make them far weaker against AMS, run 50% hotter, has the same tracking system as LRM's which is weak against fast or close targets, a shallow firing arc which makes them even harder to use with the min range and much more vulnerable to AMS since LRM's fly high above them but ATM's cannot. So, please explain how those minor buffs manage to compensate for all those cons and by all means, be as detailed as possible.

Saber Avalon, on 16 July 2017 - 09:51 AM, said:

Quote.

And yet:

1. There is no option for for Clan vs Clan nor IS vs IS.

2. Most of the new toys the IS are getting are developed in 3067.

3. PGI already stated that they do not really care about the Lore (the dirty blasphemers!).

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 16 July 2017 - 12:35 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kaptain, on 15 July 2017 - 09:39 PM, said:

Clan (The only mechs I see using this as meta)
2xGR+1ERPPC is 17heat extra
2xGR+1ERPPC is 47heat

I think its only 34ish heat for 2 Gauss 1 ER PPC. I'm just gonna add 3 DHS to my Night Gyr and call it good. Should be good for 2 alphas before having to stagger fire Gauss and the ER PPC.

Jep Jorgensson, on 16 July 2017 - 11:38 AM, said:

I read both them and the notes and tested them in the PTS. The buffs are all minor. It still has a min range, half the ammo per ton as LRM's, no word regarding missile health since it fires only 60% of the projectiles as LRM's which make them far weaker against AMS, run 50% hotter, has the same tracking system as LRM's which is weak against fast or close targets, a shallow firing arc which makes them even harder to use with the min range and much more vulnerable to AMS since LRM fly high above them but ATM's cannot. So, please explain how those minor buffs manage to compensate for all those cons and by all means, be as detailed as possible.

ATMs tore **** up on the PTS. My only concern was the missile health.

[NocturnalBeast]

Well, I am just going to take a break from Polar Highlands Online until patch day. I will probably invest in Stealth Armor since there are so many LRM turrets everywhere.

[C E Dwyer]

Movano, on 16 July 2017 - 12:15 AM, said:

Soft Tukayyid

O.k I want to know why this mans picture can stay here without moderation, while a certain Reichs chancellor gets the auto mod ed if you even say his name

Both are charismatic people that want to restrict peoples freedoms for their own agenda

[Jep Jorgensson]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 July 2017 - 12:03 PM, said:

ATMs tore **** up on the PTS. My only concern was the missile health.

I tested an ATM 24 against a 3x LAMS Nova along with 2x LRM 20's in the PTS. The LRM's won by a wide margin.

@Cathy Nobody here wants to hear you nor anyone else grip about political figures that you disagree with and nobody readily recognizes (no idea who that guy is and do not really care either way). So take a chill pill and jump into a big stompy robot.

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 16 July 2017 - 12:48 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jep Jorgensson, on 16 July 2017 - 12:38 PM, said:

I tested an ATM 24 against a 3x LAMS Nova along with 2x LRM 20's in the PTS. The LRM's won by a wide margin.

Because everyone is going to be running 3 LAMS novas? If everyone runs AMS to avoid ATMs, its because ATMs are scary.

But hey.. I already said the only thing that concerned me was missile hit points.

[Jep Jorgensson]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 July 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

Because everyone is going to be running 3 LAMS novas? If everyone runs AMS to avoid ATMs, its because ATMs are scary.

But hey.. I already said the only thing that concerned me was missile hit points.

They do not have to all run 3x LAMS Novas. Try half a pub team with one AMS a piece. That is 6x AMS right there and with the low arc, they will be flying through multiple AMS bubbles before they finally get to their target (assuming they manage to make it that far). LRM's fly over the AMS until they have to come down and in greater numbers. So try again.

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 16 July 2017 - 12:58 PM.