675 replies to this topic

[Arkhangel]

Ed Steele, on 15 July 2017 - 09:37 PM, said:

Don't get me wrong, I would rather have strict adherence to lore than "balance", but we all know that PGI responds to the noisiest complainers and balances accordingly. Advancing to the point where Clan and IS are basically the same would be the best way to keep the game lore-accurate and be as close to "balanced" as the complainers want.

actually, advancing to Jihad is when Clans get the most utterly broken weapon in Battletech, the HAG40. which is actually why they stuck to Civil War and didn't go that far. course, in fairness, us IS woulda gotten the Plasma Rifle too, which woulda basically made it near-impossible to carry energy weapons on a clan mech for fear of being covered in Napalm.

honestly, think we're gonna be pretty close to parity with civil car tech already. everything right now is conjecture anyways. we won't know till it actually hits.

Kaptain, on 15 July 2017 - 09:39 PM, said:

No I don't think so. http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

2regPPC and one guass is 11.97 extra heat
Same for 2guass and one reg right? Since they are all in the same family.

Or if you are running a mauler with 2xGR and 2xPPC its 32 extra heat to alpha

Clan (The only mechs I see using this as meta)
2xGR+1ERPPC is 17heat extra
2xGR+1ERPPC is 47heat




A single HGR sucks and two of them are just ok.

The only mech that can mount 2 of them AND a regular/ER ppc is the Annihilator... 6 tons of ammo in a mech with an optimal range of 180, that moves at 48kph... Meh. Yuck!

Not sure what you are on about honestly.

optimal is just the 25 damage you know. it's probably still gonna be doing at least AC/10 damage out to long range. also bear in mind the Annihilator is gonna be a hell of a brick to kill.

[Trennbull]

New tech is nice, thank you PGI!

Nerfs - well if they have to, but please please please... this game needs more new maps and changes to the old. Also Incursion should be worked on and Escort as well (the VIP needs to get smarter (change the route if too many enemies are spotted and fire back - move faster if needed, take cover etc.)

[Kaptain]

Arkhangel, on 15 July 2017 - 10:04 PM, said:

optimal is just the 25 damage you know. it's probably still gonna be doing at least AC/10 damage out to long range. also bear in mind the Annihilator is gonna be a hell of a brick to kill.

Sure but when you can only carry 6 or so tons of ammo at 5 shots each are you really going to use it at range? Or are you going to cringe every time you pull the trigger?

15 alphas of 30 damage at long range is not scary, its not even good.
15 alphas of 40 damage at medium range still not good.
15 alphas of 50 damage at short range? Better. But it can play the poke game and the 5 sec cooldown+charge time is not so good.
15 alphas at brawling range for 60 damage is pretty dang good on paper but it still has a long list of drawbacks and at this range there are a number of better loadouts. AND it somehow has to get to this range at 48-52kph and once it is there, it can't escape.

Maybe it will be different in a 12v12 game but in pts It sucked IMO. I know that the cool down was buffed by 1 sec but still. The range is short, the charge up is long, the cooldown is long, its fragile and the ammo per ton sucks, its huge, its bulky, Its a ticking time bomb AND you have to run a std engine.

If anyone sees a mech running 2 HGR just hit it in the back. You know they are in the STs and they take up almost the entire thing. Bingo bango that mech just lost at-least half its firepower, if not half the mech due to GR explosion. HGRs are a fragile 11 slot liability.

Edited by Kaptain, 15 July 2017 - 11:23 PM.

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

I wonder if the average game length might have been analysed. If each match can take up to 12 minutes, how long on average have matches been taking over these large changes. I'd love to see the results.

Soon we'll be hitting each other with sticks.

[Wintersdark]

CaeruleusWolf, on 15 July 2017 - 10:56 PM, said:

The salt and complaining in this post...they could give everyone a free civil war mech and people would still find a reason to complain.

Me?

I am just happy this game is moving forward.

What's funny is that every time they give Mechs away for free, people actually complain about them. A lot. E ery time. It's like clockwork.

[Movano]

Quote

[color=#00FFFF]Previous Faction Play seasons ran under a 'soft' victory structure based around the Battle of Tukayyid as a focal point.[/color]

Soft Tukayyid

[Zergling]

StormDll, on 15 July 2017 - 09:46 PM, said:

Eah. And Clan mech need have + 20-25% armor too. 60 tonn sphere mech have armor 80-85 tonn clanmech. And -10 heat.
You want 150 tonn sphere mech? You have this mech! Any 100 tonn sphere assault have armour 140-150 tonn mech.
LFE should have no penalties? Mb. Sphere should have no invisible noweight armor. 60 tonn mech must have armour 60 tonn mech. 100 tonn mech must have armour 100 tonn mech.

Compare the armor quirks of the Orions:

Orion = BASE ARMOR (CT): 23.00 BASE ARMOR (LT): 16.00 BASE ARMOR (RT): 16.00 BASE ARMOR (LA): 12.00 BASE ARMOR (RA): 12.00 BASE ARMOR (LL): 16.00 BASE ARMOR (RL): 16.00
Orion IIC = BASE ARMOR (CT): 12.00 BASE ARMOR (LT): 12.00 BASE ARMOR (RT): 8.00 BASE ARMOR (LA): 6.00 BASE ARMOR (RA): 6.00 BASE ARMOR (LL): 8.00 BASE ARMOR (RL): 8.00

Wanna guess which is the better mech?

Here's a tip: it's not the one with the stronger armor quirks.

Edited by Zergling, 16 July 2017 - 12:52 AM.

[I cant want to]

with the same weapons loadout the 2c moves half again as fast

[The6thMessenger]

Pariah Devalis, on 15 July 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

I mean, ATM got a tighter spread and a faster velocity, as well as the 90 ammo per ton count I was hoping for. So it was improved. I still don't think it needs a hard minimum range, but given how the new balancing guy is actually being semi-iterative with these changes there is a slight possibility of future revision for it post launch.

Yeah, but honestly they should have went with my suggestion, it's already mathematically sound.

The6thMessenger, on 02 July 2017 - 04:14 AM, said:

General Changes:

- RACs Jam 100% when Jam Meter is filled.
- RACs do not fill Jam Meter while spinning, only while shooting.
- RACs Jam Meter does not go down until Spin-Down is achieved.
- Always during operation, the weapon generate heat. Be it during spin-up, spin-down, or firing, it will generate heat. Like Stealth Armor.

The6thMessenger, on 02 July 2017 - 04:14 AM, said:

RAC2:

Damage/shot: 0.80
Projectile Speed: 2000
Shots/Sec: 10.00
Burst DPS: 8.00
Total Damage/Burst: 40
Total Shots/Burst: 50
Spin-Up Time: 0.50s
Spin-Down Time: 0.50s
Burst Duration: 5.00s
Jam Dissipation: 4.00s
Jam Duration: 4.00s
EDPS: 4.00

The6thMessenger, on 02 July 2017 - 04:14 AM, said:

RAC5:

Damage/shot: 1.25
Projectile Speed: 1650
Shots/Sec: 8.00
Burst DPS: 10.00
Total Damage/Burst: 50
Total Shots/burst: 40
Spin-Up Time: 0.50s
Spin-Down Time: 0.50s
Burst Duration: 5.00s
Jam Dissipation: 4.00s
Jam Duration: 4.00s
EDPS: 5.00

I mean look at that EDPS.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 16 July 2017 - 01:07 AM.

[Zergling]

chaothulhu, on 16 July 2017 - 12:57 AM, said:

with the same weapons loadout the 2c moves half again as fast

And when they are moving at the same speed, the Orion IIC has much more weapons tonnage available.

Eg, take an Inner Sphere Orion with a top speed of 64.8 kph, due to a 300 rated LFE and with endo-steel. The IS Orion ends up with 36.0 tons and 31 slots free.
Versus an Orion IIC, also moving at 64.8 kph with a 300 rated XL, endo-steel and ferro-fibrous armor. The Clan Orion IIC ends up with 43.0 tons and 31 slots free.

That is a 7 ton advantage, solely due to clan tech... and Clan weapons are lighter than Inner Sphere, so that advantage is compounded.


Eg, the IS Orion could go with 1x Gauss Rifle with 3 tons of ammo, 2x Large Pulse Lasers and 4 extra double heatsinks for its 36 tons.
The Clan Orion IIC could go with 1x Gauss with 3 tons of ammo, 3x Large Pulse Lasers and 10 extra double heatsinks for its 43 tons.

Or the IS Orion could take a UAC20 with 4 tons of ammo, 2x Large Pulse Lasers and 3 extra double heatsinks.
The Clan Orion IIC could go with a UAC20 with 4 tons of ammo, 2x Large Pulse Lasers and 13 extra double heatsinks (requires dropping the ferro-fibrous armor to fit them in though, which costs 2 tons).


In both comparisons, the Inner Sphere Orion ends up far inferior in firepower because even if it has a -10% energy heat gen quirk, it still heats up more than the Clan Orion IIC, simply because it has far fewer heatsinks.
That firepower advantage is more than enough to offset the Inner Sphere Orion's stronger armor quirks, which is why the Orion IIC is the better mech.

Edited by Zergling, 16 July 2017 - 01:35 AM.

[BEARDOOM]

I see that this will be great job i gameplay.
In future you guys need to work on engine! This one is not for this kind of game. Old and my laser cant go trough mess objects.
I dont expect UNREAL 4 engine, but...
https://youtu.be/E3LtFrMAvQ4. I sow it today...

[BEARDOOM]

CaeruleusWolf, on 15 July 2017 - 10:56 PM, said:

The salt and complaining in this post...they could give everyone a free civil war mech and people would still find a reason to complain.

Me?

I am just happy this game is moving forward.

Complaining or criticism is part of evolutution. This game is best for me! New engine! New maps! Cut some maps...

[Gasoline]

When reading through this thread I thought to myself: Hey, let's just get back to the Succession Wars era. All that fiddling with balance and Clan OP here, IS OP there... Remember the times, when the GaussCat or SplatCat were the subjects of most of the complaints?

I think PGI wants to increase time to kill... what sounds ironic in the aspect of the coming tech for IS. I personally couldn't care less about the Gauss/PPC merge as I hardly use any Gauss loadouts. The Gauss chargeup was stupid in the first place. A PPC chargeup would have made a lot more sense, even lore-wise.

I don't even want to address autocannons... RACs are good tho... closest resemblance to an actual autocannon in the game.

I can feel for the clanners tho. They really draw the short straw here. Especially no HAG, which I was really interested in. The ATM is kinda goofed and the Heavy Lasers seem very underwhelming. Not even talking about Micro Lasers here. Funny enough that the HMG seems to be the best weapon system for the clans. A bit frustrating to be fair.

LFE seems really good. Will give a ton of new options.

LAMS will be pretty much DOA. Way to easy to overheat. And lo and behold, we get a whole bunch of new missile systems... nope... won't be mounting this one.

IS weapons look good on paper. I wouldn't fiddle with the slot count tho. That leads to even more abuse and the next pool of tears. Heck, if the jam chance is as bad as the clan Ultras, I wouldn't even use them in the first place. Jam chance on PTS seemed way better tho. As for the rest, really have to wait and see how it plays out.

New mechs seem okay.

Have to wait and see how the Annihilator with a whole Commando strapped on top of it's CT does fare within the limits of the game. Same speed and agility as a Dire Wolf but better hitboxes.

The Uziel can be a heck of a fast medium with a 390 max engine and a variety of loadout options. What most people seem to be missing it's slightly more agile than a Shadow Cat (without MASC) being 5 tons heavier.

Cougar might need a buff in the speed tweak part of the mobility tree, we'll see. It's ridiculously slow for a light with 87kph max speed tweaked.

The MKII will be on equal footing as the MAD-IIC. Similar hitboxes and same mobility. Wouldn't mount missiles on that tho... maybe on the -B with CT hardpoints...

What I really want is PGI to revisit all the nerfed chassis in light of the upcoming changes. The Jenner IIC is still way too large, the Night Gyr moves like a brick, as does the Kodiak.

Edited by Gasoline, 16 July 2017 - 06:13 AM.

[WeekendWarrior]

Zergling, on 15 July 2017 - 09:51 AM, said:

Give the IS mech Clan DHS, endo, ferro and XL, and it will have no problems using the Clan lasers.

The IS mech will then most definitely be more powerful.

Wait a second. Did you just argue that turning a IS Mech into a Clan Mech would make it more powerful?
Doesn't that kinda defeat your own point?

Anyway, a IS Mech using Clantech DHS, Endo, Ferro, XL Engine and Weapons is called a Clan Secondliner.
Are Clan BattleMechs more powerful than Clan OmniMechs in this game?

JuIius, on 15 July 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

Like always there are some Guys talking about "LORE", "TT" and other Bullsh**.

Would be nice when you *§"%&§ realize that this Game has nothing to do with that.

This "Bullsh**" of yours is the primary reason most of us are actually here.
In fact this game wouldn't even EXIST without it, and its very dedicated fan base.
Would be nice when you *§"%&§ realize and appreciate that.

JuIius, on 15 July 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

Sorry, i cant see what makes Clans better ... the longer Duration of Lasers? The bigger Heat of Energy Weapons? The lower Health of components? The Spread of AC`s?

NO Range advantage of any Clan weapon can equalize that.

Kinda conveniently forgetting weight and size, are we?
Everything in the Clan arsenal is considerably lighter and smaller, meaning you can carry more of it, or use the saved weight for something else.

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2017 - 12:15 PM, said:

How things worked out in Tabletop Lore - IS winning despite Clans being stronger - was stupid writing more than anything else. "We win because they are dumb."

Nope. The IS bought time by exploiting cultural loopholes.
Then they stopped them for the same reason the Allies won both WWs: numbers. They basically zerged them.
Though there's an argument to be made that the IS has never actually beaten the Clans. They are still there after all.

Edited by WeekendWarrior, 16 July 2017 - 04:23 AM.

[Zergling]

WeekendWarrior, on 16 July 2017 - 04:00 AM, said:

Wait a second. Did you just argue that turning a IS Mech into a Clan Mech would make it more powerful?
Doesn't that kinda defeat your own point?

My point was that while Clan weapons are hotter than IS weapons, they can handle having hotter weapons because they can cram so many more DHS into their mechs than IS mechs can.

If Clan mechs didn't have the ability to fit so many DHS in their mechs, then hotter weapons would actually be a disadvantage, as would be the case if IS mechs gained the ability to use Clan weapons but no other pieces of Clan tech.

In other words, I was making the argument that such a single aspect of Clan vs IS balance (hotter Clan weapons) should not be taken in isolation of all the other aspects that have an influence on how things actually work.

WeekendWarrior, on 16 July 2017 - 04:00 AM, said:

Are Clan BattleMechs more powerful than Clan OmniMechs in this game?

Some are better and some are worse, just as in TT.

[Wattila]

Zergling, on 16 July 2017 - 04:27 AM, said:

My point was that while Clan weapons are hotter than IS weapons, they can handle having hotter weapons because they can cram so many more DHS into their mechs than IS mechs can.

Are they?

cERML: 7/6.3 = 1.11 DPH
isERML: 5/4.5 = 1.11 DPH

[Peter Overheater]

Just saw this on reddit, post made my day: https://www.reddit.c...notes_for_july/

[SilentScreamer]

WeekendWarrior, on 16 July 2017 - 04:00 AM, said:

Nope. The IS bought time by exploiting cultural loopholes.
Then they stopped them for the same reason the Allies won both WWs: numbers. They basically zerged them.
Though there's an argument to be made that the IS has never actually beaten the Clans. They are still there after all.

MOST Clans survived the IS counter attack in the Battletech fiction. Smoke Jaguar did not.
http://www.sarna.net...k_Force_Serpent

Goals of conquering homeworlds is a good step for faction play. But will logistics/economics ever be introduced?

Edited by SilentScreamer, 16 July 2017 - 07:15 AM.

[MovinTarget]

SilentScreamer, on 16 July 2017 - 07:08 AM, said:

MOST Clans survived the IS counter attack in the Battletech fiction. Smoke Jaguar did not.
http://www.sarna.net...k_Force_Serpent

Goals of conquering homeworlds is a good step for faction play. But will logistics/economics ever be introduced?

"Soon®"

In all seriousness, its great in theory but unless you rope off to keep out the guys don't care about things... just derping for the next mechbay it will be very frustrating for those that crave immersion...

Edited by MovinTarget, 16 July 2017 - 07:32 AM.

[Wintersdark]

StormDll, on 15 July 2017 - 09:46 PM, said:

Eah. And Clan mech need have + 20-25% armor too. 60 tonn sphere mech have armor 80-85 tonn clanmech. And -10 heat.
You want 150 tonn sphere mech? You have this mech! Any 100 tonn sphere assault have armour 140-150 tonn mech.
LFE should have no penalties? Mb. Sphere should have no invisible noweight armor. 60 tonn mech must have armour 60 tonn mech. 100 tonn mech must have armour 100 tonn mech.

Yes! Yes!

This is the point exactly.

Inner Sphere has zounds of quirks because they need zounds of quirks. A major part of why is the engine imbalance: Clan Engines are *massively* better than IS engines, even with the LFE.

This is the single largest point of imbalance between the factions. Because dying when you lose a side torso or not is HUGE - even with the current penalties, a Clan mech can still continue fighting very effectively once it's lost a side torso (weapon locations permitting anyways) but for an IS mech to do that they have to give up a monsterous amount of available tonnage (with heavier weapons to boot).

So, yes, absolutely with less defensive quirks. Absolutely.