675 replies to this topic

[Jep Jorgensson]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 July 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

Because everyone is going to be running 3 LAMS novas? If everyone runs AMS to avoid ATMs, its because ATMs are scary.

But hey.. I already said the only thing that concerned me was missile hit points.

They do not have to all run 3x LAMS Novas. Try half a pub team with one AMS a piece. That is 6x AMS right there and with the low arc, they will be flying through multiple AMS bubbles before they finally get to their target (assuming they manage to make it that far). LRM's fly over the AMS until they have to come down and in greater numbers. So try again.

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 16 July 2017 - 12:58 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jep Jorgensson, on 16 July 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

They do not have to all run 3x LAMS Novas. Try half a pub team with one AMS a piece. That is 6x AMS right there and with the low arc, they will be flying through multiple AMS bubbles before they finally get to their target (assuming they manage to make it that far). LRM's fly over the AMS until they have to come down and in greater numbers. So try again.

Are you saying that everybody is going to start running AMS all of a sudden? Or is this purely hypothetical?

And hey, if AMS is hardcountering ATMs, its a sign to up their missile health.

[GenJack]

Cannot wait! Looks amazing!

[Appuagab]

No slots reduction for LBX? Seriously? LBX/2 taking space of 4x regular AC/2? STD engine side torso only LBX/20? How is this supposed to be useful? If PGI isn't going to fix ammo types issue (considering ATMs mechanics, they aren't going to), these two are going directly into the trash. I was really looking forward to use more different shotguns, but I'll just rather use MRMs then.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 July 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

Because everyone is going to be running 3 LAMS novas? If everyone runs AMS to avoid ATMs, its because ATMs are scary.

But hey.. I already said the only thing that concerned me was missile hit points.

apparently all missiles have the same health. SRM survivability is purely speed.

ATM's are still half SRM velocity, so they'll lose twice as many.


And AMS... not just because ATM's are scary. You get utility vs. LRM's as well. That utiity is generally not worth the tonnage/space if you're not a potato and can cope with LRM's, but it's still an asset - every missile it shoots down is another free point of armor, after all. As well, an AMS unit will drop an SRM or two as well. Again, not a lot and not worth taking it for, but a non zero game.

If ATM's are even mediocre, and MRM's get used at all, then you'd have 4 weapon systems the AMS is protecting you from.

As long as it's getting more utility than vs LRM's,/SRM's I figure it's pretty likely people will start taking it. There's going to be a lot of missiles around for the next while.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 16 July 2017 - 01:01 PM, said:

Are you saying that everybody is going to start running AMS all of a sudden? Or is this purely hypothetical?

And hey, if AMS is hardcountering ATMs, its a sign to up their missile health.

It's quite likely people will start running AMS, yes. For 1 ton, you're saving yourself damage from multiple weapon systems, including some able to do significant damage.

As I said above, LRM's aren't enough of a threat to a competent player to be worthwhile, and it's not very effective vs SRM's due to speed and range... But it WILL be effective vs ATM and to a lesser extent MRM's, so... Yeah.

Pure it this way: if you could take a 1 ton 2 slot shield that negated 10% of laser damage, would you?

[Baphomech]

PGI, you have been hyping this patch as the "Civil War" update for months, which includes mechs, weapons, and other equipment from the Civil War era of Battletech. However, your decision to have Faction Play take place in 3057, which is still the Clan Invasion era, is inconsistent and disappointing. The Faction Play setting should have advanced instead to sometime between 3062 and 3067, which is the actual timeline for the Civil War era (as well how the this update was marketed to the players). To a point, I understand doing this to help maintain the Clan vs. IS dynamic, but it could have been better communicated if it was the intent from the beginning. It would be unfortunate if it were instead a late-stage decision that was made for the sake of simplicity.

Marketing an upcoming feature one way, and then delivering something else, is an unsound marketing strategy for a game that runs on a F2P business model. It was my hope that you would have learned this by now.

[SilentScreamer]

Baphomech, on 16 July 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

It would be unfortunate if it were instead a late-stage decision that was made for the sake of simplicity.

We get new tech, but MWO diverges further from Battletech Lore.

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...." A Tale of Two Cities

Also, just because the timeline is moving Operation Bulldog next patch does not mean Civil War Era will not emerge in the future. We just have mechs and tech a decade or so earlier... lore-fanatics do have something new to cry over.

Edited by SilentScreamer, 16 July 2017 - 02:35 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

Baphomech, on 16 July 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

PGI, you have been hyping this patch as the "Civil War" update for months, which includes mechs, weapons, and other equipment from the Civil War era of Battletech. However, your decision to have Faction Play take place in 3057, which is still the Clan Invasion era, is inconsistent and disappointing. The Faction Play setting should have advanced instead to sometime between 3062 and 3067, which is the actual timeline for the Civil War era (as well how the this update was marketed to the players). To a point, I understand doing this to help maintain the Clan vs. IS dynamic, but it could have been better communicated if it was the intent from the beginning. It would be unfortunate if it were instead a late-stage decision that was made for the sake of simplicity.

Marketing an upcoming feature one way, and then delivering something else, is an unsound marketing strategy for a game that runs on a F2P business model. It was my hope that you would have learned this by now.

This really is not that big of a deal, since there is no FedCom for the FedCom Civil War to happen in and there was no Comstar to defeat the Clans at Tukayyid in the PGI MWO universe. I guess BATTLETECH is getting to be like Marvel or DC with all the different alternate timelines and universes.

[Baphomech]

Ed Steele, on 16 July 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

This really is not that big of a deal, since there is no FedCom for the FedCom Civil War to happen in and there was no Comstar to defeat the Clans at Tukayyid in the PGI MWO universe. I guess BATTLETECH is getting to be like Marvel or DC with all the different alternate timelines and universes.

And I agree. The lore/setting isn't as important in itself - more than anything, I am criticizing the inconsistent message and lack of early communication regarding this particular feature update. One should not market a soda as potentially having berry flavor, and then release something that is actually citris.

[Dee Eight]

Wintersdark, on 16 July 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

apparently all missiles have the same health. SRM survivability is purely speed.

All missiles except NARC's are 1 hit point. NARC's are 2 hit points. An AMS fires 30 times per second, and does 3.5 damage per shot without nodes (thus the 105/second mentioned in the patch notes). Because they start firing once the missile enters maximum range (currently 250m) they're initially doing less damage per shot than that until the missile closes to the optimal range (which without nodes is currently 165 meters). On average the first missile of the incoming volley will likely need five or six shots to be destroyed, and then the subsequent missiles will need less (once in optimal they'll need a single shot only). This is why inside the new optimal range, you basically cannot get a streak-6 volley past an AMS though an SRM6 will have better results as the missiles travel faster. Similarly a NARC travels the fastest and is the hardest to shoot down, even without its 2 hit points. It will be interesting to see how an MRM40 volley does on the live server.

[NocturnalBeast]

Baphomech, on 16 July 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

And I agree. The lore/setting isn't as important in itself - more than anything, I am criticizing the inconsistent message and lack of early communication regarding this particular feature update. One should not market a soda as potentially having berry flavor, and then release something that is actually citris.

That is how this game has been marketed since the beginning, I guess I have just gotten used to it not being exactly what I was lead to expect.

[Wintersdark]

Dee Eight, on 16 July 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

All missiles except NARC's are 1 hit point. NARC's are 2 hit points. An AMS fires 30 times per second, and does 3.5 damage per shot without nodes (thus the 105/second mentioned in the patch notes). Because they start firing once the missile enters maximum range (currently 250m) they're initially doing less damage per shot than that until the missile closes to the optimal range (which without nodes is currently 165 meters). On average the first missile of the incoming volley will likely need five or six shots to be destroyed, and then the subsequent missiles will need less (once in optimal they'll need a single shot only). This is why inside the new optimal range, you basically cannot get a streak-6 volley past an AMS though an SRM6 will have better results as the missiles travel faster. Similarly a NARC travels the fastest and is the hardest to shoot down, even without its 2 hit points. It will be interesting to see how an MRM40 volley does on the live server.

You're sure about 3.5 damage per shot, 30 shots per second? That seems... Extreme. Obviously there's no damage carryover, but with a missile travelling at 160m/s, and a 160m optimal range, a single AMS unit would destroy 30 missiles as it takes a full second for them to cover that 160m, and each 3.5 damage shot would fully destroy a missile.

You'd have single AMS units completely stopping LRM30 volleys, particularly considering the optimal->max range fire as well.

[NocturnalBeast]

I forgot that the event was still going, so I guess I will suffer through a few more Polar Highlands so I can get more cash for Civil War tech.

[Derek Church]

Quote

Gauss Rifle Design Notes: For some time now, Gauss/PPC combinations have skewed much higher than nearly every other weapon combination when it came to pure pinpoint damage and kill potential. As a result, we've had to balance all Gauss and PPC weaponry changes around that combination, rather than what was best for the weapons individually. This was a mentality we carried with us into the New Tech PTS testing, attempting to preserve the weapon combo. That testing showed the various Gauss/PPC combinations provided with the release of new tech reliably outperformed nearly everything else on the PTS; when taken outside the combinations however, the individual weapons vastly under-performed from where we wanted them to be.

As a result, and with the current behavior of the combinations prior to the release of new tech also in mind, we have re-evaluated our stance on the combinations. This change will link Gauss and PPC weaponry together for the purpose of scaling Heat penalties. This will allow us to better balance the individual weapons as needed in the future, both within the existing lineup of weaponry, and with the new weapon type

So what's the solution to have under performing weapons both separably and in combination of each other? I'm not really pro Gauss/PPC mix but I do believable that the two weapons have been so "balanced" that they're difficult to run well outside of specialized builds for them specifically.

Quote

ER PPC Design Notes:As mentioned in the earlier entry for Gauss Rifles, we previously balance the ER PPC around their combination potential with Gauss. With the weapons now linked to the Gauss Rifles, it affords us the ability to boost the velocity of these weapons to make them better at longer-ranged trades. The Clan ER PPC pays for this increased Velocity with a bit more Heat given its existing solo-weapon potency.

Sorry but a speed buff to IS ER PPC's is not going to fix this, hell its not even a band aid to this particular problem. Simple put there either to hot, to heavy, or to slow. Frankly there an argument too be made that IS PPC's may well be all the above. Now these things in conjunction with ghost heat stops anyone from using more then two at a time is problematic. At least if you actually wish them to preform well individually.

Despite these things I'm looking forward to the coming patch, and I am hopefully that the issue presented will be addressed.

Edited by Derek Church, 16 July 2017 - 11:35 PM.

[Liquid Leopard]

InnerSphereNews, on 14 July 2017 - 07:08 PM, said:

* Tukayyid is the newly-assigned Capital for the Free Rasalhague Republic...

No, the capitol was moved to Orestes in 3051. Do you even lore, bro?

Per the Clan Wolf sourcebook, they captured Rasalhague in the 3rd wave of the Invasion.
The Elected Prince and his flagship fled to Radstadt, which fell to Clan Wolf about the time he arrived on Oct 31st, 3051.

The Clan Wolf sourcebook and the Invading Clans sourcebook agree that the Elected Prince was able to escape again, only because the Wolf flagship was crippled in the battle.

The capitol functions would be re-established on Orestes by the end of the year.

Tukayyid was the site of ComStar's big Trial of Possession because it had a low population density and no particular strategic value.

Edited by Liquid Leopard, 16 July 2017 - 03:26 PM.

[MovinTarget]

I am guessing the actual civil war part will come in a week or two so we get a chance to get a handle on the tech and PGI can hotfix anything that comes up in the patch.

It may also be partly due to the fact that the code/UI has morphed a bit since we last were able to fight other specific factions...

[WeekendWarrior]

Dee Eight, on 16 July 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

Yes. Very often they are. Omnis are simply re-configurable in the field more easily than straight battlemechs. There are omni's in the clan second line formations also in the lore. They are not automatically better and there are a number of battlemechs much preferred to omni's by clan warriors in the lore, and in this game as well.

Uhm, neg. The only standard BattleMechs readily taken over Omnis are so for prestige reasons (Orion IIC, totem Mechs), a trueborn actually considers it a shame and a downgrade to be assigned a BattleMech instead of an Omni, and a freeborn in a garrison unit given an Omni is rewarded for something.
The only reason the Clans started building more standard Mechs were economic pressure, and the Clan leaders had quite a bit of PR spinning to do to "sell" them to their warriors.

[NocturnalBeast]

WeekendWarrior, on 16 July 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

Uhm, neg. The only standard BattleMechs readily taken over Omnis are so for prestige reasons (Orion IIC, totem Mechs), a trueborn actually considers it a shame and a downgrade to be assigned a BattleMech instead of an Omni, and a freeborn in a garrison unit given an Omni is rewarded for something.
The only reason the Clans started building more standard Mechs were economic pressure, and the Clan leaders had quite a bit of PR spinning to do to "sell" them to their warriors.

Actually, before the Clans invented OmniMech technology, they upgraded the Star League Mechs that they had brought with them during the exodus and used those for many years before replacing the frontline Mechs with Omni-Mechs. The Clans did not call, IIC Mechs "IIC", they called them by their original IS designations, since they no longer used the original versions of the Mechs. Yes, a True Born warrior would almost always be in an Omni-Mech and a Freeborn, or Solahma (old or disgraced warrior) will most likely be in a IIC Mech, unless they have proven themselves to be the equal of a True Born. In this time-frame, only Clan auxiliary and garrison units used "IIC" Mechs and those units were usually lead by a True-Born Solahma that had never earned a blood name.

In MWO, IS and IIC Mechs are far more easily re-configurable than they should be and that Makes Omni-Mechs almost pointless in this game.

Edited by Ed Steele, 16 July 2017 - 04:33 PM.

[Kaptain]

Ed Steele, on 16 July 2017 - 04:32 PM, said:

In MWO, IS and IIC Mechs are far more easily re-configurable than they should be and that Makes Omni-Mechs almost pointless in this game.

Agreed. I would like to see clan omni mechs get some of their build restrictions lifted. Lets start with being able to remove and move around heatsinks.