675 replies to this topic

[meteorol]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

This is just silly. I'm not going to start arguing what PGI actually meant by what they've said, as what they've said is often wrong anyways.

Yes, the cERPPC's buff - 200m/s - is smaller than the isERPPC's buff - 600m/s.

But, ignoring your ridiculous ramblings above with regards to PGI's motivations, RIGHT NOW, on live, are you seriously going to argue that the Clan ERPPC is better than, or even equal to, the IS ERPPC?

That'd be lunacy. The IS ERPPC is a terrible weapon on live(and rarely used even in combination with Gauss), while the Clan ERPPC is merely ok but kinda bad, except in combination with Gauss Rifles.

This change ISN'T ABOUT GAUSS+PPC BEING OP. It's about Gauss+PPC together being good enough that it requires PPC's to be nerfed to the point that they're kinda garbage outside of that combination.

This has, for years, prevented PPC's of all stripes/factions from being decent weapons on their own right, as any improvement to the PPC lead to an even greater increase in Gauss+PPC combinations.


Now, yes, the ERPPC received a much larger buff. It's looking to be a decent weapon now, in it's own right and not just because it combines well with Gauss.

The cERPPC is improved, too - sure, it's probably improved to where it was when skilled - I haven't looked at the math, but I'll take your word for it. But it still gets skills. If it went from 1300-1500 before, same gain (because you still get skills) takes the cERPPC from 1500-1730.

So, now we get even more velocity from the skills than we did before. It's still a buff, it's just a smaller buff than the (initially far worse) IS ERPPC got.


Again, this ISN'T about Gauss+PPC being a problem now. It's about the inability to make PPC's good weapons without MAKING the Gauss+PPC combo a problem.

The fact that you are contradicting yourself within a span of two sentences aside...
Dude, your reading comprehension failed on the whole line here. I mean, it's nice you wrote a wall of text and stuff, but if you didn't understand a single word of what i actually said, you should be a tad bit slower to call things "ridiculous ramblings".

I will quote my final verdict again, so maybe, after reading it twice, you will be able to understand what i actually said:

Quote

Unlink ghost heat again, buff IS ER PPC to 1900, Clan to 1400 (which will still be enough to desynch) and +0.25 heat, done.

.

So, because i have learned you are somewhat unable to read what people actually post before going on "ridiculous ramblings", i'll write stuff down in bullet posts, so you can understand it.

• Gauss/PPC for IS is currently utter ****, because IS has a massive tech disadvantage. The IS ER PPC is so bad it can be buffed to 1900 m/s velocity without actually linking the ghost heat. Simply buff it. Don't touch ghost heat. IS Gauss/PPC is bad enough it doesn't require the link to be balanced. It will be kept in check by subpar chassis and tech difference. There currently are zero high tier IS Gauss/PPC mechs.
  
• Gauss/PPC for Clans is the main issue people are offended by, mainly on the Night Gyr, but the Clan ER PPC needs much less buffing, because it is a much better weapon than the IS ER PPC. A 100 m/s buff on the Clan ER PPC would be enough to make it a better weapon, while still having enough desynch to the gauss.

So, if you still fail to understand what i said, i'll put it in one very very very clear sentence:

PPCs can be buffed without linking the ghost heat.

[MechaBattler]

Gentleman Reaper, on 15 July 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

Yeah, let's not mention Clan ERPPC being 1 ton lighter, 1 slot smaller, and dealing splash damage, nope, no worth in balance at all...

If the IS wants to save 1 ton and 1 slot. They have to lose significant range by using a Snub. Or perhaps that damage, well here's a 10 ton HPPC with more heat, less range, and a min range.

Or you could save a good amount of tonnage by equipping Light PPCs, but you can only fire 3 for 15 damage without incurring ghost heat. Also there's a min range.

[Wintersdark]

meteorol, on 15 July 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

The fact that you are contradicting yourself within a span of two sentences aside...

I think I've been pretty damn consistent here, where do you feel I'm contradicting myself?

Quote

Unlink ghost heat again, buff IS ER PPC to 1900, Clan to 1400 (which will still be enough to desynch) and +0.25 heat, done.

I disagree, strongly. Yes, ERPPC's are garbage now. But we had ERPPC's at GR velocity before and it WAS a problem.. We've been right there, with those stats. That'd just bring Gauss+ERPPC builds screaming back in a hurry, BECAUSE THAT WAS WHY PPC VELOCITY WAS NERFED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Quote

So, because i have learned you are somewhat unable to read what people actually post before going on "ridiculous ramblings", i'll write stuff down in bullet posts, so you can understand it.

• Gauss/PPC for IS is currently utter ****, because IS has a massive tech disadvantage. The IS ER PPC is so bad it can be buffed to 1900 m/s velocity without actually linking the ghost heat. Simply buff it. Don't touch ghost heat. IS Gauss/PPC is bad enough it doesn't require the link to be balanced. It will be kept in check by subpar chassis and tech difference. There currently are zero high tier IS Gauss/PPC mechs.

At no point did I say Gauss+PPC was good right now, certainly not Gauss+erppc. The problem is that it becomes extremely strong very quickly once there is velocity match. We've been there before.

Anyways, if there's no Gauss+PPC builds is side now, and there's no gauss/PPC builds later BUT there are more viable PPC builds (and Gauss+1erppc) then we've got a net gain in diversity

Quote

Gauss/PPC for Clans is the main issue people are offended by, mainly on the Night Gyr, but the Clan ER PPC needs much less buffing, because it is a much better weapon than the IS ER PPC. A 100 m/s buff on the Clan ER PPC would be enough to make it a better weapon, while still having enough desynch to the gauss.

So, if you still fail to understand what i said, i'll put it in one very very very clear sentence:

PPCs can be buffed without linking the ghost heat.

I don't care what people are currently offended by. To be frank, there's little reason to be offended by it at all, as even as Gas has said above it's on the way out.

But the core here is that you believe PPC's can be buffed without linking Gauss in ghost heat. You have zero evidence of this, you just believe it to be true.

I feel they can't be buffed without linking ghost heat (or something else to degrade PPC/Gauss synergy) based on YEARS OF PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE AND THE FACT THAT WHEN PPC'S WHERE FAST, GAUSS+PPC WAS A SEVERE PROBLEM. Back then, they were used on *everything* that could mount it.

PGI has worked at avoiding Gauss+PPC dominance for years via nerfing the crap out of ppc's. It has worked - it's NOT a dominant build. IS side, it doesn't really exist at all. Because PPC's are trash. But the problem is... PPC's are trash.

[Wintersdark]

---

I like PPC's. They're awesome. And they've been garbage for a long time, purely because of the velocity nerfs.

I'll happily sacrifice Gauss+2ppc builds to have PPC's be more viable everywhere else.

History is pretty clear here.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jman5, on 15 July 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

You keep saying that the PPC/Gauss Combo are under performing, but PGI says the exact opposite:



Laserboats do tend to do a lot of damage. They generally have larger alphas, but they are much less accurate. You wind up having to do more damage for less results than the PPC/Gauss combo that is much better at keeping damage on fewer components.

I took a look at my stats because I was curious about this. I couldn't just use the "hit" stat because it counts lasers as hit even if only .00001 damage hit the mech. It also doesn't take into account hits past optimal range. So I figured out how much damage I did per fired. Then saw what percent of damage I did out of the potential full damage. AC/20 = 20, Gauss = 15, etc. Basically I made an efficiency stat.

At the top of the chart was my Streak SRM 2 and Streak SRM 6. (SHOCKER)

However in third place, was my Gauss Rifle.

Yeah well without seeing the data I don't really believe that, since the skill tree dropped anyway. And are your stats from pre or post skill tree? PPC/Gauss builds while strong can fall flat if you have a fast paced match. Laser boats and more DPS oriented builds don't have this issue. And honestly, the Night Gyr is really the only top performer right now running PPC/Gauss, and that's because its a poptart. Assaults have a lot more diversity because they can't poptart.

And I mean, what stats are they using? Are they just comparing PPC/Gauss stats to non PPC/Gauss stats? Because I wouldn't be surprised if a higher percentage of the higher tier players were using more PPC/Gauss, meaning the stats would be skewed upward, as the guys who play for fun will be using other loadouts and potentially skewing their stats downward.

Looking at my own stats, my higher avg damage and higher KDR mechs are laser boast or ppc/dakka builds, PPC/Gauss was down the latter a little bit, with the exception of the ECM MAD-IIC but that has a low sample size.

To build on that, mechs that bring dual gauss and 1 or 2 PPCs will still be pretty strong. Arguably an unnecessary nerf, but still, firing 2 PPC then 2 gauss is still pretty potent (and its what you do at long range anyway), and if you only have one PPC the ghost heat should be pretty manageable. The mechs that really get the shaft are the ones with 1 Gauss and 2 PPC (Timber, DS, HGN, some other heavies), as the damage is lower, and because there are 2 PPCs instead of 1 the ghost heat will be prohibitive.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 15 July 2017 - 01:46 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

If many have not been noticing, our new balance Overlord (not necessarily a bad thing) has been reverting the base stats the previous Overlords had implemented but following up with some of the designs from the Energy Draw (GR/PPC combo).

Better the GR/PPC ghost heat link than PGI scrapping off the remaining skin from the previous JJ castration....

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 15 July 2017 - 01:53 PM.

[Mecrutio]

*cough* higher Time to Kill is *always* a good thing *cough*

Lasers are hotter, have lower damage, or longer burn times/cooldown? That means a higher TTK

Gauss/PPC PPFLD nerfed? Higher TTK

One should not be able to kill a mech in 1-2 volleys, it's supposed to take a concentrated effort from multiple mechs to take down an opposing mech with any speed. 1v1 duels are supposed to be slug fests, not just a 1-2 alpha through the CT.

Could these problems be fixed via a proper heat scale? ya, for sure. But we're not going to get that.
Could these problems be fixed via the implementation of a BV system? Absolutely, but it probably won't happen.

So in the mean time *anything* that increase Time to Kill is a *good* thing. If you want to be able to one-shot you targets, you're playing the wrong game. So yes, we will probably see an increase in laser vomit, and yes PGI will probably nerf their heat or ghost heat, which will increase TTK. Nerfing things is better than Buffing things as buffing things to compete with high performing weapons or mechs leads to power creep, which no one wants.

[Pariah Devalis]

Saber Avalon, on 15 July 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

Oh great, this **** again. We already fought with PGI over changing the logos before, why the hell are they making the same mistake AGAIN?!

Also, why was Diamond Shark not included? It was the third clan to join the invasion, along with Nova Cats and Steel Vipers. The Mad Cat MKII even has shark livery!

From sarna: "As a consolation prize, both the Nova Cats and Diamond Sharks called for and won Trials of Refusal for the right to be "next in line" should additional Clans be required." They were in line to join before the Steel Vipers in lore even.

Unfortunately, unlike at Clan launch, where the redesigned logos more or less tee'd off every Clan pilot regardless of Clan of Choice, a "minor Clan" like the Nova Cats just doesn't have enough members or popularity to raise the same degree of stink about its logo as might be needed. I know Alexander Garden knows about the dislike for it, via twitter, but I fear it won't get any sort of priority given how small a pool of players we are.

What really sucks is this is the second time the Nova Cats have been let down. The first was the original promotional art for the Clans:


We were so happy we were getting our Clan in game. Only to find out... nope. We were not.

Now we got all happy we're getting included, for realsies this time. We expected a logo similar to the decal we are plastering on our mechs. Instead we got... this thing:





You can imagine how irritating this is. And how worrying it is because we don't have the same number of players as the collective of the big four. I'd seriously ask for others to help keep the push alive to get it changed to something... not terrible, and more in tune with the original design of the logo.

We were there at Clan launch lobbying for your logo redesigns. Can I hope for some help from you all in return? :\

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 15 July 2017 - 01:59 PM.

[Oblitum Infernos]

ATMs are now entirely worthless, thanks for that PGI Min range and 2 DMG per missile, you literally completely removed any reason to put them on anything. i hope to god they fire chris over how badly he's already fubar'd everything he's touched.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mecrutio, on 15 July 2017 - 01:55 PM, said:

*cough* higher Time to Kill is *always* a good thing *cough*

Lasers are hotter, have lower damage, or longer burn times/cooldown? That means a higher TTK

Gauss/PPC PPFLD nerfed? Higher TTK

This is unsubstantiated conjecture and doesn't accurately represent in game results.

Oblitum Infernos, on 15 July 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

ATMs are now entirely worthless, thanks for that PGI Min range and 2 DMG per missile, you literally completely removed any reason to put them on anything. i hope to god they fire chris over how badly he's already fubar'd everything he's touched.

They are 3 damage per missile from 120m-270m.

[Pariah Devalis]

Oblitum Infernos, on 15 July 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

ATMs are now entirely worthless, thanks for that PGI Min range and 2 DMG per missile, you literally completely removed any reason to put them on anything. i hope to god they fire chris over how badly he's already fubar'd everything he's touched.

Not 2 damage. 2 is just the medium damage. Still 3 at 120-270.

[CK16]

Pariah Devalis, on 15 July 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

Unfortunately, unlike at Clan launch, where the redesigned logos more or less tee'd off every Clan pilot regardless of Clan of Choice, a "minor Clan" like the Nova Cats just doesn't have enough members or popularity to raise the same degree of stink about its logo as might be needed. I know Alexander Garden knows about the dislike for it, via twitter, but I fear it won't get any sort of priority given how small a pool of players we are.

What really sucks is this is the second time the Nova Cats have been let down. The first was the original promotional art for the Clans:


We were so happy we were getting our Clan in game. Only to find out... nope. We were not.

Now we got all happy we're getting included, for realsies this time. We expected a logo similar to the decal we are plastering on our mechs. Instead we got... this thing:





You can imagine how irritating this is. And how worrying it is because we don't have the same number of players as the collective of the big four. I'd seriously ask for others to help keep the push alive to get it changed to something... not terrible, and more in tune with the original design of the logo.

We were there at Clan launch lobbying for your logo redesigns. Can I hope for some help from you all in return? :\

I got to say, I hope PGI csn adjust this before Tuesday for you guys! Hell if Kahn can do it in a few hours PGI should be able to as well. Considering it's not on much compared to a decal ect.

[Saber Avalon]

Pariah Devalis, on 15 July 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

Unfortunately, unlike at Clan launch, where the redesigned logos more or less tee'd off every Clan pilot regardless of Clan of Choice, a "minor Clan" like the Nova Cats just doesn't have enough members or popularity to raise the same degree of stink about its logo as might be needed. I know Alexander Garden knows about the dislike for it, via twitter, but I fear it won't get any sort of priority given how small a pool of players we are.

What really sucks is this is the second time the Nova Cats have been let down. The first was the original promotional art for the Clans:


We were so happy we were getting our Clan in game. Only to find out... nope. We were not.

Now we got all happy we're getting included, for realsies this time. We expected a logo similar to the decal we are plastering on our mechs. Instead we got... this thing:





You can imagine how irritating this is. And how worrying it is because we don't have the same number of players as the collective of the big four. I'd seriously ask for others to help keep the push alive to get it changed to something... not terrible, and more in tune with the original design of the logo.

We were there at Clan launch lobbying for your logo redesigns. Can I hope for some help from you all in return? :\

At the same time, we should include a push to get Diamond Sharks in game at this point too. They're in the same boat, us clanners need to stick together.

[Pariah Devalis]

CK16, on 15 July 2017 - 02:12 PM, said:

I got to say, I hope PGI csn adjust this before Tuesday for you guys! Hell if Kahn can do it in a few hours PGI should be able to as well. Considering it's not on much compared to a decal ect.

I don't expect it fixed by then. The patch is probably already in the process of being compiled, so it is too late to fix it for launch. However, maybe the following patch?

Saber Avalon, on 15 July 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

At the same time, we should include a push to get Diamond Sharks in game at this point too. They're in the same boat, us clanners need to stick together.

Agreed. They are our partners in financial crime, after all.

[Koniving]

Kaptain, on 14 July 2017 - 08:33 PM, said:

-Interesting that the Ultra10 and AC10 have ghost heat. I hope that does not mean that the AC5 will get ghost heat.

You know why they did this, don't you?

There's a variant among the Annihilators are going to be able to pull off the Kodiak's quad UAC/10 build... but with front loaded damage. This is clearly an attempt to halt/punish the flagrant abuse before it begins after the lesson they learned with the Kodiak.

[BMKA]

InnerSphereNews, on 14 July 2017 - 07:08 PM, said:

Inner Sphere and Clan Standard Gauss Rifle
• Heat Penalty group is now linked with PPC.

R.I.P poptarts

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Twilight Fenrir, on 14 July 2017 - 07:39 PM, said:

I'm curious what the linking of PPC and Guass for ghost heat is gonna mean for the individual weapons in the future... *crosses fingers for removal of gauss charge*

I'm hoping that clan PPCs can have their CD nerf revoked and that IS Heavy PPCs can have their full damage front loaded.

Koniving, on 15 July 2017 - 02:14 PM, said:

You know why they did this, don't you?

There's a variant among the Annihilators are going to be able to pull off the Kodiak's quad UAC/10 build... but with front loaded damage. This is clearly an attempt to halt/punish the flagrant abuse before it begins after the lesson they learned with the Kodiak.

But that wasn't neccisary with the standard AC/10, though. It'd just be a longer ranged and very slow boom jager. Hopefully the heat spike isn't unlivable, because ive been looking forward to quad-AC/10 for a loooong time.

[The6thMessenger]

Mister Blastman, on 14 July 2017 - 09:02 PM, said:

YES!

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




The balance underlord has listened!

Gauss + PPCs are now linked!

AND HEAVY PPCs ARE 15 PTS!

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Thank you.

At least you got your wish.

RAC and ATMs still didn't got their deserved adjustment.

[Koniving]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 15 July 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

But that wasn't neccisary with the standard AC/10, though. It'd just be a longer ranged and very slow boom jager. Hopefully the heat spike isn't unlivable, because ive been looking forward to quad-AC/10 for a loooong time.

Never liked how MWO does Autocannons, so I'll be going quad RAC and then living out the fantasy of actual autocannons, and pretend they are AC/10s.

Edited by Koniving, 15 July 2017 - 02:38 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

The6thMessenger, on 15 July 2017 - 02:33 PM, said:

At least you got your wish.

RAC and ATMs still didn't got their deserved adjustment.

I mean, ATM got a tighter spread and a faster velocity, as well as the 90 ammo per ton count I was hoping for. So it was improved. I still don't think it needs a hard minimum range, but given how the new balancing guy is actually being semi-iterative with these changes there is a slight possibility of future revision for it post launch.