81 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Plenty of Light Mechs lack tonnage, and 4 tons is only 66% the weight of a LPL

Yeah but thats way too niche. To have the HLL only be useful if a mech has 4 tons but not 6 tons. The HLL needs a broader niche than that.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Yep. I'm gonna be running a Shadow Cat with 2x heavy LLas and 6x cHMG as soon as the patch drops. Good ****, PGI. Great for hardpoint-limited 'mechs, big punch that leaves plenty of tonnage to max out the rest.

Edited by Alexander of Macedon, 15 July 2017 - 06:23 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 05:46 PM, said:

Yeah but thats way too niche. To have the HLL only be useful if a mech has 4 tons but not 6 tons. The HLL needs a broader niche than that.

No... It's when you have 6 or 7 tons left and you want more than a LPL, but don't have 6 hardpoints for a Massed ML blast. Use as many HML as you can and cap it with a HeavyLL

The HLL is literally a substitute for Massed ERML

Edited by Prosperity Park, 15 July 2017 - 06:27 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

The HLL is literally a substitute for Massed ERML

its a pretty bad substitute then considering it takes over 7 seconds for it to recycle

and the ERMLs could fire 1.5 times in the same time the HLL fires once. or three times in the same time it takes the HLL to fire twice.

the cooldown is still one of the biggest reasons the HLL sucks.

I would rather just not use a mech with only 1 energy hardpoint in the first place then be forced to use an HLL.

Edited by Khobai, 15 July 2017 - 06:39 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 06:36 PM, said:

its a pretty bad substitute then considering it takes over 7 seconds for it to recycle

and the ERMLs could fire 1.5 times in the same time the HLL fires once. or three times in the same time it takes the HLL to fire twice.

the cooldown is still one of the biggest reasons the HLL sucks.

One hardpoint, 18 damage... Dude, it can be better than a single LPL for that, alone, or if you have 3 hardpoints and 6 tons that's a 38 point strike (2HML, 1HLL), OR a single LPL.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 15 July 2017 - 06:44 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I see it as this:

1 HLL = 2.5ERML + a single hardpoint tax of 1.5t, but buy now and we will let you stack it with additional MLs without counting toward your normal ML GH limit!

[Zergling]

I favour dropping the Heavy Large heat from 17 to 15, which will at least give it better damage/heat ratio than the Clan ER Large.

Also, drop Heavy Large duration from 1.55 to 1.45, Heavy Medium duration from 1.45 to 1.35, so all Heavy Lasers have durations just 0.1 more than the comparable Clan ER Laser.

Edited by Zergling, 15 July 2017 - 07:14 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Alexander of Macedon, on 15 July 2017 - 06:21 PM, said:

Yep. I'm gonna be running a Shadow Cat with 2x heavy LLas and 6x cHMG as soon as the patch drops. Good ****, PGI. Great for hardpoint-limited 'mechs, big punch that leaves plenty of tonnage to max out the rest.

It was toasty and ammo starved
~50% heat per alpha IIRC

HMGs only have 140 Dam/ton, so keep that in mind

Going HLL+Med of choice gives you both better heat efficiency, and the ability to kill more than 4 mechs.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Prosperity Park, on 15 July 2017 - 06:43 PM, said:

One hardpoint, 18 damage... Dude, it can be better than a single LPL for that, alone, or if you have 3 hardpoints and 6 tons that's a 38 point strike (2HML, 1HLL), OR a single LPL.

You seem to keep focusing on Alpha Strikes but are forgetting that you have a massively long beam duration which means most of that damage goes to waste as it is spread all over the enemy mech. Then if that wasn't enough you have a massively long cooldown before you can fire again. Who cares if a HLL can do 18 damage when I can fire the LPL twice for 24 damage in near the same time span and concentrate the damage better due to the shorter beam duration.

You know I get where your coming from and the example you use that I just quoted is potentially one of the times when the heavy lasers make sense but only if you also have a ton of free criticals for DHS as well because that HLL and 2 HMLs does 33 points of heat verses 10 for that single LPL. If you only have the 10 DHS in the engine to hold you over because you lack critical slots your going to be a hell of alot more effective with the single LPL than the HLL and 2 HMLs.

I mean lets say you have 18 tons and 6 hard points. You could do 2 x LPL for 12 tons and then add 6 more DHS or mount 2 x HLL and 4 x HML and 6 DHS. You alpha at that points is huge when using the Heavy Lasers, a full 72 damage but 66 points of heat on 16 DHS is going to bring you to your knees. The 2 LPLs however will run cool as hell on 16 DHS, in fact you would almost never have to stop firing. Over the course of an entire match, the fact you can sustain those 2 LPLs and keep firing whenever you have a target is going to be more beneficial.

Truth is, no matter how much anyone may want Heavy Lasers to be good, the fact is they aren't except for a few select builds and that is what is disappointing about them. I think most people were hoping for them being an alternative to what we currently have, not some niche weapon that works only in a few select cases.

[Mcgral18]

Viktor Drake, on 15 July 2017 - 07:32 PM, said:

You seem to keep focusing on Alpha Strikes but are forgetting that you have a massively long beam duration which means most of that damage goes to waste as it is spread all over the enemy mech. Then if that wasn't enough you have a massively long cooldown before you can fire again. Who cares if a HLL can do 18 damage when I can fire the LPL twice for 24 damage in near the same time span and concentrate the damage better due to the shorter beam duration.

You know I get where your coming from and the example you use that I just quoted is potentially one of the times when the heavy lasers make sense but only if you also have a ton of free criticals for DHS as well because that HLL and 2 HMLs does 33 points of heat verses 10 for that single LPL. If you only have the 10 DHS in the engine to hold you over because you lack critical slots your going to be a hell of alot more effective with the single LPL than the HLL and 2 HMLs.

I mean lets say you have 18 tons and 6 hard points. You could do 2 x LPL for 12 tons and then add 6 more DHS or mount 2 x HLL and 4 x HML and 6 DHS. You alpha at that points is huge when using the Heavy Lasers, a full 72 damage but 66 points of heat on 16 DHS is going to bring you to your knees. The 2 LPLs however will run cool as hell on 16 DHS, in fact you would almost never have to stop firing. Over the course of an entire match, the fact you can sustain those 2 LPLs and keep firing whenever you have a target is going to be more beneficial.

Truth is, no matter how much anyone may want Heavy Lasers to be good, the fact is they aren't except for a few select builds and that is what is disappointing about them. I think most people were hoping for them being an alternative to what we currently have, not some niche weapon that works only in a few select cases.

You know, that first paragraph is EXACTLY what we're talking about

The HLL deals MORE DAMAGE PER TICK than the cLPL
I hope the highlights get through to you


It deals MORE DAMAGE in the 1.09 second period the cLPL fires for, THEN FIRES FOR EVEN MORE DAMAGE
It has HIGHER DAMAGE CONCENTRATION



It does have a long arse cooldown, and is painful to use exclusively (ie, 4HLL builds) because of the downtime. Do not recommend that.
Supplementing other firepower? That it can do

[Felicitatem Parco]

I would rather turn a corner, fire a 38 damage strike, then fade away than turn a corner, fire a 13 damage strike, then fade away. Just saying.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Prosperity Park, on 15 July 2017 - 07:58 PM, said:

I would rather turn a corner, fire a 38 damage strike, then fade away than turn a corner, fire a 13 damage strike, then fade away. Just saying.

I a perfect world you are correct. However how many missed shot opportunities will you have with Heavy Lasers due to being on cooldown vs how many missed shot opportunities someone armed with a LPL would have. If your guns aren't ready to fire when the opportunity presents itself, your not as efficient. Same goes for hiding behind a rock and cooling verse actively being able to fire your weapons. Maybe I am able to fire my pair of LPLs 6 times in the same span you fire once. Maybe because of having less down time I will get to take advantage of more opportunity shots. Maybe in that situation where an enemy and I are brawling and we are both at red CT, I will be able to get my shot off where you will be waiting for your heat to come down or your cool down to refresh. Maybe your mech will accidentally overheat at a bad time while my mech keeps active and can escape to cover.

Basically there are no perfect scenarios so yeah there will be times when popping out and doing 36 damage will offer more advantageous results but there are going to be alot of times where the extra heat and longer cooldowns will put you at a distinct disadvantage as well and some other, lower damage, lower heat weapon would be much better suited. I don't think either of us is really wrong here but your not going to convince me that aside from a few niche situations that Heavy Lasers are better or even equally good as the existing energy weapons in most scenarios.

[Felicitatem Parco]

If I had to choose between delivering 38 damage over a single shot opportunity, or 36 damage over 3 opportunities, then I am taking the former. That's 1/3 the times to get popped by an astute enemy.

If I miss, then I run. Only one exposure required.

_______________

What's the cooldown on 2HML + 1 HLL versus firing a single LPL 3 times?

Edited by Prosperity Park, 15 July 2017 - 08:35 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

One hardpoint, 18 damage... Dude, it can be better than a single LPL for that, alone, or if you have 3 hardpoints and 6 tons that's a 38 point strike (2HML, 1HLL), OR a single LPL.

but how many clan mechs actually have that problem of 3 hardpoints and only 6 tons?

its not really a problem that even exists

because of CXL, CES, CFF, clan mechs generally have an abundance of tonnage. but a shortage of crit slots. so the heavy lasers struggle to find a role because they consume more valuable crit slots while giving you more tonnage that you dont really need.

Edited by Khobai, 15 July 2017 - 08:43 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 08:39 PM, said:

but how many clan mechs actually have that problem of 3 hardpoints and only 6 tons?

its not really a problem that even exists

because of CXL, CES, CFF, clan mechs generally have an abundance of tonnage. but a shortage of crit slots. so the heavy lasers struggle to find a role because they consume more valuable crit slots while giving you more tonnage that you dont really need.

Smaller Mechs, and Mechs laden with Gauss who won't be using PPCs with them could use low-tonnage, high-punch lasers. And some mechs literally only have 2 or 3 energy hardpoints. Some only have one.

I didn;t have time to test it, but I am considering a 4HML 2 HLL Linebacker instead of using 2 ERPPCs on it. Might instantly go Nova..

(also, consider my loose grounding to reality when discussing anything with me ;-)

Edited by Prosperity Park, 15 July 2017 - 08:49 PM.

[Zergling]

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 08:39 PM, said:

but how many clan mechs actually have that problem of 3 hardpoints and only 6 tons?

its not really a problem that even exists

because of CXL, CES, CFF, clan mechs generally have an abundance of tonnage. but a shortage of crit slots. so the heavy lasers struggle to find a role because they consume more valuable crit slots while giving you more tonnage that you dont really need.

There's a bunch of Clan mechs with a shortage of energy hardpoints and an abundance of crit slots; Adder, Ice Ferret, Shadow Cat, Mad Dog, Summoner, Orion IIC and Highlander IIC.

Cougar will probably be in a similar situation to the Adder; it will have 3E and 4E right arm hardpoints, but without those (like if it it wants to stack -% energy heat generation quirks or to use the high 1E hardpoints in LT/RT) it'll be even more limited than the Adder.

Mad Cat Mk II is a bit limited in energy hardpoints too, with two variants having just 2E, another two variants having 4E, and the last two variants having 6E.

Edited by Zergling, 15 July 2017 - 08:59 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Zergling, on 15 July 2017 - 08:59 PM, said:

Mad Cat Mk II is a bit limited in energy hardpoints too, with two variants having just 2E, another two variants having 4E, and the last two variants having 6E.

He'll be trying 2HLL 2 ERML 2 Gauss

Lacking in the heatsink department, however...
Might also try 4HLL 30 DHS...but HLL cooldowns are painful to be used exclusively

[QuantumButler]

Still look to be DoA.

Going to have lots of fun for the first couple days farming idiots who insist on trying to use them.

Edited by QuantumButler, 16 July 2017 - 06:36 AM.

[Reno Blade]

Hmmm if it's possible to rebuild a Blood Asp with the MK2?
I guess not enough Energy slots, but I will try the Dual Gauss, 2x HML 2x MPL and just add more DHS.

Blood Asp Prime
4x HML
2x MPL
2x Gauss
1x Streak6

Blood Asp A
2x cERPPC
2x HLL
1x ECM

Blood Asp B
4x MPL
1x Gauss
2x LRM20A
1x ECM

Blood Asp C
2x UAC10
1x LBX20
1x ERLL

Blood Asp D
2x ERLL
2x HML
1x Gauss
3x UAC2

Blood Asp E
4x ATM3
2x cERPPC
2x MPL

[Angel of Annihilation]

Zergling, on 15 July 2017 - 08:59 PM, said:

There's a bunch of Clan mechs with a shortage of energy hardpoints and an abundance of crit slots; Adder, Ice Ferret, Shadow Cat, Mad Dog, Summoner, Orion IIC and Highlander IIC.

Cougar will probably be in a similar situation to the Adder; it will have 3E and 4E right arm hardpoints, but without those (like if it it wants to stack -% energy heat generation quirks or to use the high 1E hardpoints in LT/RT) it'll be even more limited than the Adder.

Mad Cat Mk II is a bit limited in energy hardpoints too, with two variants having just 2E, another two variants having 4E, and the last two variants having 6E.

This is true but also don't forget the free tonnage values for alot of these mechs too. I think the Iceferret for example only has like 9 tons or something crazy low like that for equipment. It doesn't matter that the mech only has a small amount of hardpoints availble when it also doesn't have the tonnage to mount enough DHS to cool Heavy Lasers.