55 replies to this topic

[Jay Leon Hart]

Viktor Drake, on 15 July 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

Just because IS players want to whine and complain about how unfair life is (when it really isn't)

Fun fact: this isn't life, this is a PVP game. If only one side of a two sided game is having fun, guess what? The game is demonstrably *not* fun for half the players. Balance before... whatever you're on about. Feelings, I guess?

[HGAK47]

This is clearly Clan propaganda! Do not be fooled! Don't be fooled I say.......*dragged off kicking and screaming*.......its a lieeeee

[FupDup]

There's already been a meme about it for a long time on this forum.



I've added your version to my Forum Weapons folder, though. It will probably get just as much mileage as the one above...

[Lupis Volk]

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 06:18 AM, said:

I dont think any clanners take offense to IS tech being equal.

What clanners take offense to is when IS expects their @!#$ to be outright better

You see a lot of bitter IS players that just want to vindictively balance the game so that clans suffer for the next 2 years because IS had to suffer for the last 2 years

I hate the group of IS players who ignore all their boons in favour of furthering the agenda that they are severely under powered, and this is comming from a former FRR loyalist. Some Clanners have a superiority issue and some Sphereoids have a serious victim complex issue.

[MaximusPayne]

I see your opinion is different from mine so that makes you big stupid head and me superior to you in every way (social status, genetics, finances, appendage length, etc...etc...etc.). So go eat a big bucket of aids!

Seriously, I find nerd rages hilarious and they only make me want to play the game more when they're directed at me.

[Angel of Annihilation]

El Bandito, on 15 July 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

Judging by the fact that I still pull out top numbers with my Clan mechs in comparison to my IS mechs, even post mobility nerf, I am gonna say that currently Clans are more than fine. Don't quote me, just take a look at Tarogato's mech rating thread. https://mwomercs.com...ch-rating-2017/

PPFLD nerf do affect some Clan mechs but it is not as crushing as you think--mere 0.5 second difference. And according to Guzzler, top Clan mechs had stopped using PPFLD months ago.

That is just the player opinions of however powerful each mechs is. There are absolutely no hard facts at all in those numbers.

Also you don't even have to own the mech to be able to rate the mech. For example. The Hunchback IIC. I don't own one and aside from like 5 matches on one I bought and then almost immediately sold plus a couple matches in the trial version I have no experience with them. In my eyes, based on maybe 7-8 matches I think they suck but you know what? There are a whole heck of alot of people who think they are one of the best Clan Mediums in the game, in fact according to that survey, it is the best medium in the game.

The point I am making here is that due to the fact I don't own a Hunchback IIC and play one regularly, I am not qualified to determine if the mech is good or not, all I have is observational data to go on and/or what other people say about them. However I can still tick mark off on the Survey that I think they are a 3. Also there was a point where the Clan were OP so there is a predisposition for people to believe the Clans are OP. If persons believes that, what do you think their rating of Clan mechs is going to be? Yeah, they are going to rank them highly even if they have never played a Clan mech a day in their lives yet the fact they haven't played one means they don't really have a clue about how good or bad it is, just like I don't have a clue how good or bad a Hunchback IIC is, not really.

[Fleeb the Mad]

Viktor Drake, on 15 July 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

And this right here is exactly my point.

This happened once before by the way, back before the IS had quriks and the Clans were blatantly OP. I stopped enjoying playing IS mechs, sold off about 75% of them to buy Clan mechs and then got bored and quit the game for about 9 months. That is about where I am at now. I have sold off like 5-6 of my Clan mechs already, bought a ton of IS mechs and near stopped playing Clans all together. I don't want this trend to continue and I am afraid the new round of nerfs are going to be the tipping point.

PGI just needs to stop nerfing the fun out of the game, simple as that.

To be frank, this statement erodes everything you've been trying to say. If you're constantly selling and buying mechs based on what's working best, your word on what balance can or should be seems to be biased. The argument seems to be less about balance and more about what you're currently invested in taking hits.

The only thing that has ever made IS mechs top contenders were quirk-based specialized builds. The builds that people most often complain about are specific to a single chassis with a specific weapon. Once any of those take hits to their quirks, the balance has always dramatically changed. That's not how it's supposed to work.

Anything that takes a hit is less enjoyable to run. Thing is the most painful changes have taken effect all across the board. The Mad IIC isn't as light on its feet and the Atlas struggles to twist in a brawl. Nerfs to clan weapons have also been mirrored by the loss of many offensive quirks that were propping up IS mechs.

We've been here before, too. The Quirkening was the original answer to underperformers - buffing everything else up to compete with the best mechs. The end result was that TTK decreased and any chassis that relied on quirks was reduced to a one-note build with roller coaster changes to its effectiveness based on quirk passes. It took quite some time, but PGI eventually realized that heavy quirks were a balancing problem, not a solution. They couldn't adjust a weapon without a host of knock-on effects based on chassis with high quirks for those weapons.

With the skill tree, they've knocked everything down a few notches. It sucks, but people need to get out of this persecution mentality. Clan tech is ton for ton superior to IS tech and that means the IS is always going to need to be propped up in some way for balance to ever be achieved. One of those ways is new tech which plugs some capability holes, such as the LFE giving IS machines with vulnerable side torso hit boxes a way to get some traction compared to cXLs, even if it's still not as good.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Fleeb the Mad, on 15 July 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

To be frank, this statement erodes everything you've been trying to say. If you're constantly selling and buying mechs based on what's working best, your word on what balance can or should be seems to be biased. The argument seems to be less about balance and more about what you're currently invested in taking hits.

The only thing that has ever made IS mechs top contenders were quirk-based specialized builds. The builds that people most often complain about are specific to a single chassis with a specific weapon. Once any of those take hits to their quirks, the balance has always dramatically changed. That's not how it's supposed to work.

Anything that takes a hit is less enjoyable to run. Thing is the most painful changes have taken effect all across the board. The Mad IIC isn't as light on its feet and the Atlas struggles to twist in a brawl. Nerfs to clan weapons have also been mirrored by the loss of many offensive quirks that were propping up IS mechs.

We've been here before, too. The Quirkening was the original answer to underperformers - buffing everything else up to compete with the best mechs. The end result was that TTK decreased and any chassis that relied on quirks was reduced to a one-note build with roller coaster changes to its effectiveness based on quirk passes. It took quite some time, but PGI eventually realized that heavy quirks were a balancing problem, not a solution. They couldn't adjust a weapon without a host of knock-on effects based on chassis with high quirks for those weapons.

With the skill tree, they've knocked everything down a few notches. It sucks, but people need to get out of this persecution mentality. Clan tech is ton for ton superior to IS tech and that means the IS is always going to need to be propped up in some way for balance to ever be achieved. One of those ways is new tech which plugs some capability holes, such as the LFE giving IS machines with vulnerable side torso hit boxes a way to get some traction compared to cXLs, even if it's still not as good.

Your missing the point. I quit playing IS mechs back then because they weren't enjoyable to play because of the imbalance that was currently in the game and I am starting to feel that the imbalance is swinging the other way now. Now Clan mechs are starting to become not enjoyable to play. What do you do when something stops being fun? I don't know maybe your different but for myself, I get rid of the things that aren't fun and use those assets to get something that is. Maybe if I had more C-bill than I knew what to do with, I wouldn't feel the need to get rid of things no longer fun in order to buy things that are fun. Since that isn't the case, it doesn't make sense to have a mech in my hanger that I will never play again when I could use the C-bills from the sale of that mech to buy something I do want to play.

Here is the thing though. I really don't want to sell mechs. What I want is for them to be enjoyable to play. When they get nerfed so hard that they stop being enjoyable, well that is a problem and that is what is occurring right now in game, way, way too often. PGI's idea for balancing something they don't feel is were it needs to be is to bat it down to the point no one plays the mech or uses the equipment anymore. I mean hey, if no one pilots a KDK-3 anymore, then the issue of its balance goes away right? Got a Clan vs IS population imbalance? Well just make the clans so bad that people decide to move over to IS mechs instead. Problem solved. More skilled players playing on the Clan side? Make the Clan bad enough that skilled players move over to less bad IS mechs. That seems to be PGI's method of balancing.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 15 July 2017 - 04:14 PM.

[El Bandito]

Viktor Drake, on 15 July 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

That is just the player opinions of however powerful each mechs is. There are absolutely no hard facts at all in those numbers.

As more people include their inputs, a pattern will emerge. I certainly would trust this survey over any single player's opinion. Consistency is key.

Besides, there can be no hard facts when it comes to a question like this, as everyone plays their mechs differently. Opinions are the best we got, and an overall good mech will still rise to the top, while bad mech will sink to the bottom.

Viktor Drake, on 15 July 2017 - 04:13 PM, said:

I quit playing IS mechs back then because they weren't enjoyable to play because of the imbalance that was currently in the game and I am starting to feel that the imbalance is swinging the other way now. Now Clan mechs are starting to become not enjoyable to play. What do you do when something stops being fun? I don't know maybe your different but for myself, I get rid of the things that aren't fun and use those assets to get something that is. Maybe if I had more C-bill than I knew what to do with, I wouldn't feel the need to get rid of things no longer fun in order to buy things that are fun. Since that isn't the case, it doesn't make sense to have a mech in my hanger that I will never play again when I could use the C-bills from the sale of that mech to buy something I do want to play.

I still enjoy my Clan mechs more than IS mechs, even post ST and engine desync. My current leaderboards score is mostly filled by Clan Mediums/Heavies/Assaults, and the scores are better than ever. They are still fun to play for me. Only Clan mech I stopped playing is the Ice Ferret.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 July 2017 - 05:56 PM.

[Fleeb the Mad]

Viktor Drake, on 15 July 2017 - 04:13 PM, said:

Your missing the point. I quit playing IS mechs back then because they weren't enjoyable to play because of the imbalance that was currently in the game and I am starting to feel that the imbalance is swinging the other way now. Now Clan mechs are starting to become not enjoyable to play. What do you do when something stops being fun? I don't know maybe your different but for myself, I get rid of the things that aren't fun and use those assets to get something that is. Maybe if I had more C-bill than I knew what to do with, I wouldn't feel the need to get rid of things no longer fun in order to buy things that are fun. Since that isn't the case, it doesn't make sense to have a mech in my hanger that I will never play again when I could use the C-bills from the sale of that mech to buy something I do want to play.

Here is the thing though. I really don't want to sell mechs. What I want is for them to be enjoyable to play. When they get nerfed so hard that they stop being enjoyable, well that is a problem and that is what is occurring right now in game, way, way too often. PGI's idea for balancing something they don't feel is were it needs to be is to bat it down to the point no one plays the mech or uses the equipment anymore. I mean hey, if no one pilots a KDK-3 anymore, then the issue of its balance goes away right? Got a Clan vs IS population imbalance? Well just make the clans so bad that people decide to move over to IS mechs instead. Problem solved. More skilled players playing on the Clan side? Make the Clan bad enough that skilled players move over to less bad IS mechs. That seems to be PGI's method of balancing.

I'm afraid that your sentiment as to what's enjoyable and what's not has no relation to the actual state of balance. It seems to me at least you're only seeing one side of the picture

That's because it's not just Clan mechs that have suffered. For every Clan mech that's taken a mobility hit there's also an IS chassis that's suffered the same. The Kodiak handles poorly, so does the Atlas and the King Crab. Clan weapons were nerfed, IS weapon quirks were nerfed.

With that said let me make one thing clear. Clan mechs were rebalanced some relative to each other, too. People who have been riding the best Clan machines for a long time are going to feel it hardest. The mobility hits were used as a way to bring the top performers down rather than having to return to buffing everything else to their level. The second line machines are still just fine compared to what they were before. I'd venture to say that some of them are better since the skill tree, even.

I've found piloting sluggish mechs is a lot less enjoyable than it was, particularly ones like the Atlas that can't brawl nearly as well as they could before. I haven't taken my Scorch out since the skill tree for the same reason. It takes longer to kill things because there's less offensive power and more durability. All of these things affect both sides. This persecution you speak of doesn't exist.

[Dr Mlem]

Fleeb the Mad, on 15 July 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

I've found piloting sluggish mechs is a lot less enjoyable than it was, particularly ones like the Atlas that can't brawl nearly as well as they could before. I haven't taken my Scorch out since the skill tree for the same reason. It takes longer to kill things because there's less offensive power and more durability. All of these things affect both sides. This persecution you speak of doesn't exist.

I really dislike the mobility changes personally. Chris Lowrey is so deadset on metrics that he doesn't ever take into account that mechs "feel" bad. Some mechs, regardless if you dump all your points into mobility mean nothing, due to how the skill points are percentage base. 4 + 30% is 5.2, hardly worth the massive amounts of points.

It's frustrating that certain mechs of the same tonnage are magically faster, or slower than **** due to relative power. It always feels like stomping down anything that becomes a performer. It gets tiring really liking a mech that's consistent only to see it nerfed into the ground over and over. Clan and IS.

It just feels like Chris spends almost all of his time figuring out ways to balance the metrics, and none of the time actually piloting them. He never once goes "Man this feels like ****, look how sluggish it is". I hate that mobility is always used as the balancing factor. There are no other systems besides like heat capacity that they really leverage.

These mobility changes feel like dog****, and they are dog****.

Edited by Lazy Badger, 15 July 2017 - 06:36 PM.

[Ced Riggs]

Lazy Badger, on 15 July 2017 - 06:34 PM, said:

I hate that mobility is always used as the balancing factor.

This, regardless of techbase and chassis, is one of my core complaints about the current balance approaches. Mobility isn't just a number, it is also how enjoyable it is to pilot a mech. Night Gyrs cannot aim at lights standing in front of them. Battlemasters cannot look around themselves. Marauder IIC take five years to turn. Timber Wolves drive like trucks with sloppy brakes, unable to make a three point turn. King Crabs are like trains on rails, unable to change course once moving. How is that supposed to be enjoyable?

[IronLichRich]

The hardest part about having a discussion about balance is the TT bias. I don't really care about balance as much as I want to do fun things with Battletech stuff. That's my bias. I think that megabuffing IS mechs is necessary since we have clan tech in the game.

[Tarl Cabot]

But isn't part of the issue is that we had the mech agility for such a long time that when the change was made, it is based on our previous experience? The same thing happened in December 2015 when the original Skill Tree had all of its skills percentages slashed (felt by all) while on the same patch PGI added the movement penalty ontop of the heat penalty when Clan mech loss one ST.

[Yellonet]

Ced Riggs, on 15 July 2017 - 01:31 AM, said:

Clan Players Are Doodooheads!

It's rare to find anything on these forums that you agree with completely, but once in a while...

[Alan Davion]

Dakota1000, on 15 July 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

3. IS is getting a rather large faction wide blanket buff through the inclusion of new tech while Clan gets very little of substance and prior to this many blanket nerfs from grounds that many people considered to be balanced in the first place outside of occasional outliers that cause those blanket nerfs in the first place.

I have to agree with Bandito on this one. The IS is NOT getting a buff with the inclusion of new tech, if anything they are just being brought up to parity with the Clan mechs just in the TYPE of equipment they can use.

And most of that tech is STILL demonstrably WORSE than the Clan equivalents. The Clans have been able to lord their ER Small/Medium lasers, UAC 2/10/10, LBX 2/5/20 and Streak 4/6 weapons over the IS since their inception, which was what? 4 years ago or some shite?

The only really new stuff the IS is getting is the RAC 2/5, Light/Heavy Gauss, Light/Heavy/Snub PPC and the MRM 10/20/30/40.

The RAC series is pretty much the IS equivalent of the ER Large lasers Clan players complained about due to their supposedly absurd face time requirements some years ago. So chances are those aren't going to be all that useful.

The MRMs... They've got what, maybe twice the range of SRMs, but due to their stream fire mechanism like Clan LRMs, they're going to be HORRIBLY inaccurate at those longer ranges, meaning they're going to be used at more or less the same ranges that normal/streak SRMs are already used at. So MRMs may replace SRMs on brawler mechs, certain brawler mechs might still stick with SRMs, it's a bit up in the air.

The PPC family... This MIGHT be the only place your argument about the IS getting a buff would hold water. The Light PPCs giving Light Mechs a new option to play with, and the Snub Nose PPC having no BS minimum range to worry about, which would give brawler mechs another option to play with.

The Heavy PPC... I really can't comment on cause I've never found PPCs to be particularly useful with my playstyle.

Light and Heavy Gauss... Again, light mechs get a new option, and the heavy gauss is going to be a monster at close ranges, but how many shots will you get before you're ganged up on and ganked because of it?

So no, you can't say the IS is getting a blanket buff because the only way you COULD say that would be if all the IS gear that the IS didn't have with the introduction of the Clans, ER lasers, UACs, LBXs and Streaks were exactly equal to, or BETTER than their Clan equivalents.

And since the IS gear that brings them up to parity with the Clans is demonstrably NOT better than what the Clans already had, your argument falls rather flat on its face.