109 replies to this topic

[Zergling]

MRM20/30s only have slightly better damage/heat than SRM6, equal with LRM20.
MRM40 has slightly better damage/heat than the 20/30s, while MRM10 has substantially worse (worse than even SRM2).

SRM2 = 2.53 damage/heat
SRM4 = 2.87 damage/heat
SRM6 = 3.23 damage/heat
LRM5 = 2.08 damage/heat
LRM10 = 2.50 damage/heat
LRM15 = 3.00 damage/heat
LRM20 = 3.33 damage/heat
MRM10 = 2.50 damage/heat
MRM20 = 3.33 damage/heat
MRM30 = 3.33 damage/heat
MRM40 = 3.48 damage/heat

MRM20/30 damage/heat actually identical to that of regular autocannons, which are all 3.33, so for an ammo consuming weapon, their damage/heat is not out of the ordinary.


ATMs within 270 meters actually have the highest damage/heat of all non-Gauss ammo consuming weapons:
ATM3 = 3.60 damage/heat
ATM6 = 4.00 damage/heat
ATM9 = 3.86 damage/heat
ATM12 = 4.00 damage/heat

Shadowomega1, on 20 July 2017 - 01:41 PM, said:

While I agree that the L. Gauss could use a slight bump in its cooldown, the weapons makes up for its lower damage in both range and damage per ton of ammo.

Light Gauss is only 160 damage per ton.
Regular Gauss is 150 damage per ton.

10 more damage per ton, or 6.67% more, is not any sort of relevant advantage.

[Wil McCullough]

Punk Oblivion, on 20 July 2017 - 05:44 PM, said:

WHAT!?!?! LMG is a near godly weapon on certain chassis!
I have had near 1K damage matches with:
Jm6-DD with 2 RAC5's and 4 LMG's
BJ-Arrow with 2 LPL's and 6 LMG's


Edit: I will give you that it is a lame weapon by itself though. Got to stack them to make them work well.

yeah im pretty biased. i can't find a good build for my uziel and there's only slots for 2 ballistics and only enough tonnage for machine guns.

i'm so frustrated. none of the mgs work well with 2 or less. which is what the hooters on stilts that is the uzi is stuck with.

[Dr Hobo]

Wil McCullough, on 20 July 2017 - 11:31 PM, said:

yeah im pretty biased. i can't find a good build for my uziel and there's only slots for 2 ballistics and only enough tonnage for machine guns.

i'm so frustrated. none of the mgs work well with 2 or less. which is what the hooters on stilts that is the uzi is stuck with.

I run HMGs on the cheapest pack variant.

The twin arm ballistics got a build like the old Belial from Mechassault. Twin light gauss ersl 2 tons of ammo and a downsized light engine.

I could add an mrn 10 if I dropped to a much smaller engine but at 64sometjinf kph it's pretty slow.

[C4NC3R]

Punk Oblivion, on 20 July 2017 - 05:44 PM, said:

WHAT!?!?! LMG is a near godly weapon on certain chassis!
I have had near 1K damage matches with:
Jm6-DD with 2 RAC5's and 4 LMG's
BJ-Arrow with 2 LPL's and 6 LMG's


Edit: I will give you that it is a lame weapon by itself though. Got to stack them to make them work well.

Dude, JM6 build you show the "godly" weapon are RAC5 who do the most damage collecting job.

[Jep Jorgensson]

Zergling, on 20 July 2017 - 10:12 PM, said:

ATMs within 270 meters actually have the highest damage/heat of all non-Gauss ammo consuming weapons:
ATM3 = 3.60 damage/heat
ATM6 = 4.00 damage/heat
ATM9 = 3.86 damage/heat
ATM12 = 4.00 damage/heat

ATM's are only good under very specific circumstances, of which the normal battlefield typically does not provide. I got to go head-to-head with an ATM 24 Mad Dog with my LRM 40 Mad Dog multiple times earlier tonight and it was not even close any of the times. My LRM's easily defeated all of the ATM mechs I found (I actually felt embarrassed for them but not enough to not destroy them all). They just have too many weaknesses to truly be even a semi-decent weapon. Simple as that. The one weapon system I was really looking forward to and it is unusable. Par for the course, PGI!

[Wil McCullough]

Dr Hobo, on 20 July 2017 - 11:44 PM, said:

I run HMGs on the cheapest pack variant.

The twin arm ballistics got a build like the old Belial from Mechassault. Twin light gauss ersl 2 tons of ammo and a downsized light engine.

I could add an mrn 10 if I dropped to a much smaller engine but at 64sometjinf kph it's pretty slow.

im actually not touching my uziel again lol. gave up. running is lights with ermls to pull my stats back up.

now those things (erml) are about as far from useless as possible. now my jenner can reach out and touch bad guys with a 30 damage alpha (at ~30% heat) from safe distances.

pretty bad ***

[Dr Hobo]

The Uziels were shipped with horribad animations and wrong quirks and no durability quirks. They would have known what quirks to add if they tested them in the PTS tbh.

[jss78]

C4NC3R, on 20 July 2017 - 11:45 PM, said:

Dude, JM6 build you show the "godly" weapon are RAC5 who do the most damage collecting job.

Of course, and they should, as they weigh several times more than the LMG's. But the LMG's give a reasonable, zero-heat addition to the DPS -- which extends out to mid-range and is thus far easier to use on slower 'mechs. Hence their utility.

[Reza Malin]

Dakota1000, on 19 July 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

LBX20 and HGauss can't actually replace the AC20 as a brawling weapon solely because they don't fit in a torso that is also running an LFE engine. Brawlers should be swapping their STD engines out for LFE if they're trying to stay competitive. The UAC20 has the option to spit out double damage of an AC20 and is the more likely replacement, though the AC20 still is semi viable due to the full frontloading. I'm not sure who in their right mind would pick an LBX20 for "muh crits" over an AC20 at the cost of multiple tons lost by not bringing an LFE.

At best either weapon is just there for some giggles.

This.

If i want to take a heavy gauss i have to use a standard engine.

The problem is after putting in a standard engine and a heavy gauss together, most mechs have nothing left.

Its pretty pointless in my mind.

[Zergling]

Jep Jorgensson, on 20 July 2017 - 11:58 PM, said:

ATM's are only good under very specific circumstances, of which the normal battlefield typically does not provide. I got to go head-to-head with an ATM 24 Mad Dog with my LRM 40 Mad Dog multiple times earlier tonight and it was not even close any of the times. My LRM's easily defeated all of the ATM mechs I found (I actually felt embarrassed for them but not enough to not destroy them all). They just have too many weaknesses to truly be even a semi-decent weapon. Simple as that. The one weapon system I was really looking forward to and it is unusable. Par for the course, PGI!

ATMs are harder to use, but more powerful when used correctly. I've been running my Cougar with ATMs, and have found them to be quite effective.
If other people can't use ATMs more effectively than LRMs, then they are just bad players.

[Reza Malin]

Jep Jorgensson, on 20 July 2017 - 11:58 PM, said:

ATM's are only good under very specific circumstances, of which the normal battlefield typically does not provide. I got to go head-to-head with an ATM 24 Mad Dog with my LRM 40 Mad Dog multiple times earlier tonight and it was not even close any of the times. My LRM's easily defeated all of the ATM mechs I found (I actually felt embarrassed for them but not enough to not destroy them all). They just have too many weaknesses to truly be even a semi-decent weapon. Simple as that. The one weapon system I was really looking forward to and it is unusable. Par for the course, PGI!

No mate, the trick is that LRMS are designed for medium to long range.
ATM's are designed for medium to short range, in combination with direct fire weapons.

They are two totally different tactical options. I hate LRMs, but i love ATMs. ATM's are great for peeking, then following up with direct fire. They are best used within about 300M, where they deal about 50% more damage than their tooltip in the mechlab states. They also have a more shallow arc than LRMs.

So you prefer LRM's, and thats your preferred playstyle, no issue with that. But anyone that knows how to use ATM's should wreck you inside 300M, unless you are simply packing a lot more tubes than they have tubes/direct fire.

[Sjorpha]

The only truly useless new weapons IMO are Hgauss and LBX20, it's just not worth it. Hgauss could be worth it if they removed the shake and increased the range, PGI severely underestimated just how bad it is for a weapon to take up 11 slots.

The rest of the weapons all have possible use, even if some of those are narrow niches.

Snubnose fills a niche because it can fit in CT E hardpoints or other 2 slot situations like XL+AC10 side torso etc, and it pairs up really well with AC20 and AC10 to push your close range PPFLD alphas up by 10. I don't think it's worth using alone but I have a lot of mechs that wanted it for those above reasons. So it will remain used.

Light PPCs are quite meh, but they do slot in as replacement for normal PPC in some mechs either because you want to split the crits or push another just 5 PPFLD.

Heavy PPCs are nice for the possibility of pairing for 30 damage, it's important to realize that this is their only niche though, as soon as you aren't pairing them they aren't bringing anything to the table over other PPCs, unless you want to use a single E hardpoint.

Just started experimenting with MRMs and I actually think the big launchers seem quite ok. Mostly they are nice because you can finally have the option to put a big weapon in that single missile hardpoint on IS assaults and heavies, like the Misery. I don't think they are good on the mechs with lots of missile hardpoints where it's better to just boat SRMs or LRMs.

UAC10s are good, UAC20 hasn't felt good to me so far and I think the regular 20 is better. I'm dissappointed that PGI ghostheated the 10 at 2+ and the 20 at 1+, that seems really excessive, it should be 3+ and 2+, and the regular 20 should be 2+ too.

Regular AMS is a lot better than LAMS in most cases I think, the heat isn't worth it. Maybe there is some low heat builds that likes LAMS IDK.

I haven't tried the rockets and clan weapons yet.

[jss78]

Sjorpha, on 21 July 2017 - 01:24 AM, said:

The only truly useless new weapons IMO are Hgauss and LBX20, it's just not worth it. Hgauss could be worth it if they removed the shake and increased the range, PGI severely underestimated just how bad it is for a weapon to take up 11 slots.

The rest of the weapons all have possible use, even if some of those are narrow niches.

Just started experimenting with MRMs and I actually think the big launchers seem quite ok. Mostly they are nice because you can finally have the option to put a big weapon in that single missile hardpoint on IS assaults and heavies, like the Misery. I don't think they are good on the mechs with lots of missile hardpoints where it's better to just boat SRMs or LRMs.

Regular AMS is a lot better than LAMS in most cases I think, the heat isn't worth it. Maybe there is some low heat builds that likes LAMS IDK.

Honest question, where do you see the niche of LB 2, 5, and 20? They take more crit slots than the regular ones and same tons ... I'm trying to, I just don't see the niche. They'd need a straight upgrade to DPS, either through reload or pellet damage IMO, to make up for the spread and weapon size.

I agree about big MRM launchers, they don't seem gimped like SRM6's and LRM20's always have been. They're making those lone, hard-to-use missile hardpoints a lot more attractive.

For heat neutral builds LAMS is a straight upgrade. Equal tonnage+slots as AMS+1t ammo, but keeps firing after 1t ammo is spent, and no risk of ammo explosion. Minor improvement, but an improvement nonetheless.

[Jep Jorgensson]

Zergling, on 21 July 2017 - 12:55 AM, said:

ATMs are harder to use, but more powerful when used correctly. I've been running my Cougar with ATMs, and have found them to be quite effective.
If other people can't use ATMs more effectively than LRMs, then they are just bad players.

Reza Malin, on 21 July 2017 - 12:57 AM, said:

No mate, the trick is that LRMS are designed for medium to long range.
ATM's are designed for medium to short range, in combination with direct fire weapons.

They are two totally different tactical options. I hate LRMs, but i love ATMs. ATM's are great for peeking, then following up with direct fire. They are best used within about 300M, where they deal about 50% more damage than their tooltip in the mechlab states. They also have a more shallow arc than LRMs.

So you prefer LRM's, and thats your preferred playstyle, no issue with that. But anyone that knows how to use ATM's should wreck you inside 300M, unless you are simply packing a lot more tubes than they have tubes/direct fire.

They are too situational to be truly effective. If you can get and stay in their sweet spot range, if you have LOS, if the enemy does not have any nearby AMS (since they are very weak against them), if you can handle the heat (that is too high according to sarna.net), if you do not mind doing only 1 damage per missile for most of your weapon range, if you do not mind the meager amount of ammo per ton you get, if you do not mind the min range, if you can keep such easily crit'ed weapons from being destroyed, if you do not mind all that, then yes I suppose they could work.

By the way, those ATM Mad Dogs I pawned last night, it was at all ranges including within 300 meters with the first one. Guess he had some trouble with my LAMS, big shocker, I know. My LRM's still ripped him a new one with only minor damage on my end.

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 21 July 2017 - 04:41 PM.

[Zergling]

Jep Jorgensson, on 21 July 2017 - 07:39 AM, said:

They are too situational to be truly effective. If you can get and stay in their sweet spot range, if you have LOS, if the enemy does not have any nearby AMS (since they are very weak against them), if you can handle the heat (that is too high according to sarna.net), if you do not mind doing only 1 damage per missile for more of your weapon range, if you do not mind the meager amount of ammo per ton you get, if you do not mind the min range, if you can keep such easily crit'ed weapons from being destroyed, if you do not mind all that, then yes I suppose they could work.

If you are only doing 1 damage per ATM missile, you are using them wrong. ATMs are not a long range weapon that competes with LRMs; they only have the capability of taking long range shots if the situation calls for it. They are short and medium range weapons, use them like that.

Also, at 2 damage per missile, ATMs do 180 damage per ton, the same as LRMs. That is not 'meagre' by any means.
And they can boost their damage/ton by shooting at shorter ranges, bringing it up to 270 damage per ton.

Hell, I just checked my stats; I'm doing 2.54 damage per ATM missile that hits, versus slightly below 1 damage per LRM hit.
That means I'm doing 228.6 damage per ton of ATM ammo, versus under 180 damage per ton of LRM ammo.


Honestly, it sounds like you just aren't a good enough player to use them effectively, so you'd rather stick with the easier to use LRMs.

Jep Jorgensson, on 21 July 2017 - 07:39 AM, said:

By the way, those ATM Mad Dogs I pawned last night, it was at all ranges including within 300 meters. Guess he had some trouble with my LAMS, big shocker, I know. My LRM's still ripped him a new one with only minor damage on my end.

You were definitely playing against a baddie then; in any sort of even fight at close range, ATMs are going to rip a LRM boat to shreds.

Also, it's now 'pawned' but 'pwned'.

Edited by Zergling, 21 July 2017 - 08:15 AM.

[Reza Malin]

Jep Jorgensson, on 21 July 2017 - 07:39 AM, said:

They are too situational to be truly effective. If you can get and stay in their sweet spot range, if you have LOS, if the enemy does not have any nearby AMS (since they are very weak against them), if you can handle the heat (that is too high according to sarna.net), if you do not mind doing only 1 damage per missile for more of your weapon range, if you do not mind the meager amount of ammo per ton you get, if you do not mind the min range, if you can keep such easily crit'ed weapons from being destroyed, if you do not mind all that, then yes I suppose they could work.

By the way, those ATM Mad Dogs I pawned last night, it was at all ranges including within 300 meters. Guess he had some trouble with my LAMS, big shocker, I know. My LRM's still ripped him a new one with only minor damage on my end.

Ok mate.

I can't comment on the maddog, because its an anecdotal at best. However it sounds like the difference between his build and mine is i would just have closed up and ruined you with direct fire if you had LRM's.

Like i said the ATM's are best used to complement direct fire, not replace it. Yes there are counters to ATM's, the same counters that there are too LRM's in fact. No one is disputing that.

On my Mad Cat, i run dual gauss, 4 x ERML, and 2 x ATM6. If i am on a firing line i can poke slightly, find targets, fire a few salvos of ATM see if they have AMS. Likewise, I can pop up, fire a salvo, then use all my direct fire if it is a good moment to do so, and then drop back. I can do any combination of the two. I don't even have to use my ATM's, i can rely on the gauss and lasers. See, they are a complement.

Boating them would be ridiculous stupidity, and low level play, just like boating LRM's is low level play. Relying too much on your team doing the hard work, while sat back contributing inefficient area damage, and leaving the rest of your team at a disadvantage in attrition rates by not sharing armour.

ATM's are situational yes, but so are LRM's.....i have no idea how you think ATM's have this as a negative and LRM's don't. LRM's are even more situational than ATM's in a game against decent players, not even good ones. ATM's are in their element within 300M, where they do 50% moer damage, the enemy has less time to react and less time to avoid. LRM's have no element, they are the same at all times outside minimum range.

I won't even comment on the heat or ammo levels, as that is negligible for any half decent pilot.

Edited by Reza Malin, 21 July 2017 - 08:15 AM.

[davoodoo]

Atms suffer so horribly from ams that you lose 6 missiles just from single lams shooting at it and since lams is pretty cool you can expect to see 6 or 7 on the team.

Edited by davoodoo, 21 July 2017 - 08:12 AM.

[Reza Malin]

davoodoo, on 21 July 2017 - 08:11 AM, said:

Atms suffer so horribly from ams that you lose 6 missiles just from single lams shooting at it and since lams is pretty cool you can expect to see 6 or 7 on the team.

More anecdotal evidence. I frequently get good hits on my ATM's, so i guess AMS levels must vary. Especially as laser AMS can contribute to overheating pretty easily.

Using your argument, LRM's would also be pointless.

As i said already any, boating them is not ideal, they are best used as an additional weapon system to my mind, to complement direct fire weapons when LoS is limited or peeking over hills.

Edited by Reza Malin, 21 July 2017 - 08:19 AM.

[Punk Oblivion]

C4NC3R, on 20 July 2017 - 11:45 PM, said:

Dude, JM6 build you show the "godly" weapon are RAC5 who do the most damage collecting job.

jss78, on 21 July 2017 - 12:34 AM, said:

Of course, and they should, as they weigh several times more than the LMG's. But the LMG's give a reasonable, zero-heat addition to the DPS -- which extends out to mid-range and is thus far easier to use on slower 'mechs. Hence their utility.

Yeah, LMG's and RAC5's have almost the same Optimum range. By time the RAC5's jam/overheat, most likely armor is stripped and the LMG's rip up components and internals. They pair very well.

BUT, Like I said, I also have had a few 700-800 damage matches in my Arrow with 2 LPL's and 6 LMG's. Just got to hang around the assaults and you get to fire non-stop and no one sees you as a threat. Meanwhile you strip arms/legs/STs with the LPL's and gut internals with the LMG's haha.

[oldradagast]

The rockets are rather useless because of the 1 shot nature, which doesn't translate well into a game like MWO which where a normal match would be equal to play a the tabletop game for 12-hours straight or longer when you consider the number of "turns" we get.

The new LBX's are all junk. They take up more space than "good" autocannons, not less, and bring nothing worthwhile to the table.

Heavy Gauss is horrible. It locks you into a standard engine, has low DPS, weighs an insane amount, and has lousy ideal range. I can't see any use for this weapon given the huge weight and weight penalty from the required standard weapon, and the range for full damage is so low, you're better off with anything else.