59 replies to this topic

[Vesper11]

Fast mediums and lights make the best shock troops - they can dodge a few shots and still make it out unlike heavies and assaults that will probably die, they burn enemy cooldowns and give time for heavier mechs to get into position so the enemy will have to choose closest one, biggest one or smoking one heavy/assault that followed the push. Having assault taking a point is asking him to suicide, what assaults/heavies should do is to not be a chicken and this is the problem of QP - people are afraid to die (to the point of whole herd of heavies/assaults retreating leaving one of them to die because "I might be the next one to be slaughtered, bleh bleh") and most heavies/assaults field long range weapons and hide behind mediums and lights that too are afraid to flank and harass the enemy.

Thus I find fast mediums the best for QP because you can be independent harassing enemies all you want while being more or less safe from all the cowards, be it lights or assaults. Sometimes you might even get half the enemy herd chasing you thinking its easy to kill medium while you disengage them without taking almost any damage.

Vincent DIFrancesco, on 21 July 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

At this point, our mouthy buddy decides to spend the next minute or two completely berating me for not following his instructions. When I tried to respond he became even more hostile and insulting.

Well, it was the "push the tunnel" guy, what did you expect? Tunnel is extra route to support main force attacking around it, that guy asking more than 4 heavies/assaults to get there is just telling everyone he's stupid.



p.s. I blame OP for ever using gimmick ATM on assault, it's one of the least usable weapons, especially so on assaults and requires half your team to set up "perfect condition" just for you to be useful, let alone use your tankiness. You also need JJs so it doesn't suck on certain maps.

Edited by Vesper11, 21 July 2017 - 09:20 AM.

[Wil McCullough]

Vesper11, on 21 July 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

Fast mediums and lights make the best shock troops - they can dodge a few shots and still make it out unlike heavies and assaults that will probably die, they burn enemy cooldowns and give time for heavier mechs to get into position so the enemy will have to choose closest one, biggest one or smoking one heavy/assault that followed the push. Having assault taking a point is asking him to suicide, what assaults/heavies should do is to not be a chicken and this is the problem of QP - people are afraid to die (to the point of whole herd of heavies/assaults retreating leaving one of them to die because "I might be the next one to be slaughtered, bleh bleh") and most heavies/assaults field long range weapons and hide behind mediums and lights that too are afraid to flank and harass the enemy, thus I find fast mediums the best for QP because you can be independent harassing enemies all you want while being more or less safe from all the cowards, be it lights or assaults.

p.s. I blame OP for ever using gimmick ATM on assault, it's one of the least usable weapons, especially so on assaults and requires half your team to set up "perfect condition" just for you to be useful, let alone use your tankiness. You also need JJs so it doesn't suck on certain maps.

it's kinda a catch-22 in qp.

assaults are great when they're the tip of the spear and CYCLING OUT when they've taken a fair share of damage.

but heavies as the blade of the spear, don't LET THEM and keep hiding behind the already about-to-die assault.

heavies see assaults going down and retreat.

happens very often in qp when you can't trust your teammates. which is why some assault pilots hesitate to push, and why assault-led pushes often fail. nobody wants to be the one to take one for the team when the team is just cobbled together a minute ago.

[Vesper11]

Wil McCullough, on 21 July 2017 - 09:24 AM, said:

it's kinda a catch-22 in qp.

assaults are great when they're the tip of the spear and CYCLING OUT when they've taken a fair share of damage.

but heavies as the blade of the spear, don't LET THEM and keep hiding behind the already about-to-die assault.

heavies see assaults going down and retreat.

happens very often in qp when you can't trust your teammates. which is why some assault pilots hesitate to push, and why assault-led pushes often fail. nobody wants to be the one to take one for the team when the team is just cobbled together a minute ago.

This is why harassing mediums are so good - you can't expect cycling out or any kind of help (if they see you retreating because you took damage and smoking they often retreat too, better to lose an ally than to get paint scratched, right?) and heavies/assaults have to COMMIT for that high risk low reward QP push, where fast meds/lights can harass at low risk low(?) reward with possibility of CHANCE for those few that pushed while you kept enemy busy/annoyed. Also annoying enemy sometimes locks them into position waiting for you to pop out thus semi-isolating other enemy mechs allowing your team to do their favorite assault peek shooting.
Oh, and if you have a dedicated lurmer on your side simply spotting makes the enemy panic so hard they either run (behind or for cover) or push (and die coz no one follows or runs in different directions).

Edited by Vesper11, 21 July 2017 - 09:47 AM.

[Snazzy Dragon]

I just want to have armor rotated. I don't like being the guy in a 96% mech behind the dude that's been on point all game in his 60% mech, because that's lousy team play on my part, nor do I like to be the guy that gets to play pinata while some sniper sits at the very edge of their max range (rather than optimal, that's my favorite) cheerleading for me.

[Wil McCullough]

Vesper11, on 21 July 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

This is why harassing mediums are so good - you can't expect cycling out or any kind of help (if they see you retreating because you took damage and smoking they often retreat too, better to lose an ally than to get paint scratched, right?) and heavies/assaults have to COMMIT for that high risk low reward QP push, where fast meds/lights can harass at low risk low(?) reward with possibility of CHANCE for those few that pushed while you kept enemy busy/annoyed. Also annoying enemy sometimes locks them into position waiting for you to pop out thus semi-isolating other enemy mechs allowing your team to do their favorite assault peek shooting.
Oh, and if you have a dedicated lurmer on your side simply spotting makes the enemy panic so hard they either run (behind or for cover) or push (and die coz no one follows or runs in different directions).

harrassing lights and mediums can only carry the game so far though (bar potato enemies). they eventually run out of armor and mech to throw at the opfor. even good trades will eventually wear down the lighter mechs.

i've seen countless matches thrown away after a good showing from the lights and meds because the assaults and heavies do the "who me? you?" shuffling when they should be shouting a war cry and just getting on with it.

[MischiefSC]

Dakota1000, on 21 July 2017 - 01:45 AM, said:

I've had that situation happen before to me. I was in a Mad Dog, 2 ALRM20 and 5 SPLs on domination in grim plexus, me and one Adder were in the circle up front behind a building defending against all the enemies that would come near while the other 10 people sat back behind a hill and did absolutely nothing, not getting in the circle, not even firing some LRMs at the targets.

Though that's similar to what happened in the match I talk about in OP. I was 200m from the enemy infront of everyone holding off 2 assaults and a heavy by myself when some jerk behind me tells me to push and blocks me from being able to get to cover to continue effectively holding the line.


There is a huge difference between hanging back and realizing you have the terrain advantage where you are. Taking up a good defensive position is what allows me to take down lances worth of mechs without anyone else helping out. I don't push in blindly, but I'm always putting in shots on my enemies with direct firepower. If I have the help of a good corner or hill I can put in some work. I've taken down half a team's worth of opponents as last man in multiple cases using cover, I don't rely on my team taking shots for me, I rely on the dirt taking it and realize my allies are more valuable than dirt.

Too many people these days take not pushing as hiding in the back, I definitely know I sure wasn't hiding and I was within SRM range of the enemies, only allies nearby hiding behind me. It can't all be push all the time, especially with assaults. The assault class is all about positioning, you are the pin that holds together a front with your massive firepower, making it hard for enemies to return fire on your team without getting blown to bits. I find that killing enemies or breaking all their shooty bits off helps save my team from damage a lot better than just walking infront of the enemy to be shot.

It is all push all the time. That doesn't mean go into brawling range but it does mean you don't just hang out. Unless your team is really well coordinated then you can't effectively hold a position - even a good one. While you personally may have a good spot (for the moment, good positioning changes when the enemy moves) your team may not.

Holding a position means surrendering control of positioning, aggression and when/where the fight takes place to the other team. If you're a team of good shots in a good position with range builds (and a couple brawlers) and good coordination then yes. Take and hold the good position, win trades, get ahead on kills THEN push.

However if you're a QP team? Holding ground = losing almost all the time. Regardless of your build, because the other team is respositioning and when you're pushing forward you're pressuring specific targets. A team that's pushing forward is almost always going to be focusing fire in QP.

Aggression, pushing forward, is about controlling the engagement. That doesn't mean trickling into a firing line or marching single file down the tunnel. It does mean constantly moving toward the enemy and shooting. If they have a firing line, circle around and push one side.

Assaults need to be a big part of that. That doesn't always mean the front line; assaults make big targets. Slow assaults are absolute **** in QP however and a huge negative as they slow the whole team down and make easy targets - most of them take terrible payloads. People in slow assaults have lots of reasons for why people need to carry them so they can finally have a good game (to make up for a string of losses) but the best use for a slow assault is as bait to tie up several enemies who rush in for that easy kill while you focus down their teammates.

A good assault needs to carry a strong payload, be fast enough to keep up (mid 60s or better) and play close to the front. You can take a slow Atlas and make a bombing run right into the middle of the enemy but you're likely to die alone in QP. Your front line in a push usually needs to be good heavies or smaller, faster assaults (MAD IIC, Zeus as good examples) and tanky heavies (Dragon).

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

MischiefSC, on 21 July 2017 - 10:06 AM, said:

It is all push all the time. That doesn't mean go into brawling range but it does mean you don't just hang out. Unless your team is really well coordinated then you can't effectively hold a position - even a good one. While you personally may have a good spot (for the moment, good positioning changes when the enemy moves) your team may not.

Holding a position means surrendering control of positioning, aggression and when/where the fight takes place to the other team. If you're a team of good shots in a good position with range builds (and a couple brawlers) and good coordination then yes. Take and hold the good position, win trades, get ahead on kills THEN push.

However if you're a QP team? Holding ground = losing almost all the time. Regardless of your build, because the other team is respositioning and when you're pushing forward you're pressuring specific targets. A team that's pushing forward is almost always going to be focusing fire in QP.

Aggression, pushing forward, is about controlling the engagement. That doesn't mean trickling into a firing line or marching single file down the tunnel. It does mean constantly moving toward the enemy and shooting. If they have a firing line, circle around and push one side.

Assaults need to be a big part of that. That doesn't always mean the front line; assaults make big targets. Slow assaults are absolute **** in QP however and a huge negative as they slow the whole team down and make easy targets - most of them take terrible payloads. People in slow assaults have lots of reasons for why people need to carry them so they can finally have a good game (to make up for a string of losses) but the best use for a slow assault is as bait to tie up several enemies who rush in for that easy kill while you focus down their teammates.

A good assault needs to carry a strong payload, be fast enough to keep up (mid 60s or better) and play close to the front. You can take a slow Atlas and make a bombing run right into the middle of the enemy but you're likely to die alone in QP. Your front line in a push usually needs to be good heavies or smaller, faster assaults (MAD IIC, Zeus as good examples) and tanky heavies (Dragon).

I'm starting to think we really do the same thing but call it different names. I'm winning much more than I'm losing and usually sitting on the top score for the team, so I'm not having any issues with my tactics here, they're working out great for me. You say that the game constantly must be about pushing, but I'm sure you're just leaving out the part where you move up forward a bit, have a good piece of cover so you can peek out and shoot then get back in, weaken the enemy team, then continue to move up so that your team can effectively wear down the enemy and win.

When I say I hold an area, I did say it was a front, as in a place where the enemy are at where a battle must take place. I don't just sit back in one single good position the whole game, I make use of a position to take out nearby enemies then move to a position that is near other enemies and repeat the process until we've won the game.

I also run fast assault mechs, preferably 70kph or so, and love bringing some painful alpha strikes to bear so that I can effectively remove enemies. ATMs work perfectly for me because I'm already great when it comes to reading the battle, positioning, and trading, so a direct fire missile weapon that can get me 144 damage in a second with 4 of them seems like too good an option to pass up, even if some can't stand a min range.


I already said multiple times anyway that I was up front, I just stated that people should not be so brain dead as to not take into account optimal ranges, areas where you can fire at the enemy without exposing much of your mech, and if they are currently winning a fight or not. No reason to run in and die in a situation in which you already have the advantage.

[InspectorG]

Push? In Solo?

You sure you are playing MWO?

[Magnus Santini]

In solo queue, it is cut him if he stands and shoot him if he runs...

[AncientRaig]

If a push starts, you need to support it. If someone calls a push, and the team starts pushing, they tend to look to the assaults as the "leaders" of the push. It's an instinctual thing, the biggest and meanest looking mech must be the toughest and strongest. If you sit around, they get worried that the push might not be happening and won't join because of the fear of being the only one who actually charges. Even if all you had is 2 HMLs, that's still a lot of firepower and the Scorch is a mech that will terrify most opponents because they know it by reputation as the 88 point LBX20 SRM6 face melter. At worst you'll draw fire away from something that actually has the close-mid range firepower and help keep him alive longer. At best the team will push out of the choke and you'll be able to dictate range again and use your ATMs to support the teams momentum.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Sidefire, on 21 July 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

If a push starts, you need to support it. If someone calls a push, and the team starts pushing, they tend to look to the assaults as the "leaders" of the push. It's an instinctual thing, the biggest and meanest looking mech must be the toughest and strongest. If you sit around, they get worried that the push might not be happening and won't join because of the fear of being the only one who actually charges. Even if all you had is 2 HMLs, that's still a lot of firepower and the Scorch is a mech that will terrify most opponents because they know it by reputation as the 88 point LBX20 SRM6 face melter. At worst you'll draw fire away from something that actually has the close-mid range firepower and help keep him alive longer. At best the team will push out of the choke and you'll be able to dictate range again and use your ATMs to support the teams momentum.

Meh, I might as well just kill all the units infront of me quickly to save my team's armor than lead them into a push where I will be unable to deal with the enemies as fast.

I've said it before, that suppression and fear, psychological warfare, may help to stop the enemy from firing at you, but killing them is much more effective of an option if you want to stop return fire permanently.

Edited by Dakota1000, 21 July 2017 - 07:55 PM.

[OrmsbyGore]

Abisha, on 20 July 2017 - 11:50 PM, said:

most med mechs have 370 armor with quarks that give armor and internal bonus's.
making them tougher then most assaults. on top of that many can zombie build and are harder to hit by size.

Even my least armored assault (Zeus) starts at just under 500 armor before the skill tree, then there's the fact that they will have higher internal structure before SkTr, so maybe it was an exageration to say that mediums are tougher than assaults?

[OrmsbyGore]

Dakota1000, on 21 July 2017 - 01:45 AM, said:

There is a huge difference between hanging back and realizing you have the terrain advantage where you are.

Yes, this is true. The other side of the coin is that just because you're hitting the enemy without taking return fire doesn't mean you are being effective. More important than dealing damage (at least in the early part of the game) is controlling the terrain, especially denying the enemy effective cover.

[Ruar]

The problem I see is you built an assault mech to stand off instead of being able to move in and push.

If you are in QP playing an assault you need to have a build that allows you to push. If you want to snipe or hang back there are medium and heavies to fill that role.

[OrmsbyGore]

Skanderborg, on 21 July 2017 - 05:38 AM, said:

100 tonners have on average 110 CT armor , thats two alphas from any mech above 50 tons. You will die in 3 seconds if you push.

No, you will die in 3 seconds if you walk slowly straight at the enemy by yourself. If 12 of you move on the enemy, trying to curve around and behind them, while the assault on point twists for all he's worth and the other 11 focus the enemy's most dangerous mech, you can pull out some pretty crushing victories.

Please do not conflate pushing with getting yourself killed.

[OrmsbyGore]

Vellron2005, on 20 July 2017 - 11:28 PM, said:

Anyone who's ever played D&D can tell you - 4 melee fighters in a party of 4 is simply bad party composition.. You need the wizard, the cleric, and the rogue..

You guys need to understand that MWO is a TEAM ORIENTED GAME.. and a Team has roles.. not everybody should be the tank.. somebody should bring the Scorch..

Ok. Now Imagine a campaign where each of the 4 players picks a character of the 4 classes (one each) and then, during battle, all 4 (fighter,mage,cleric,rogue) characters started trying to hide in the back and cast wizard spells. Most encounters would not go well.

You're absolutely right that it is a team game with varied roles, and one of the functions that falls on the heaviest mechs (fighters and clerics, using your d&d example) is to tank damage up front at least part of the time. Don't want to tank damage? No problem!!! then don't pick a 100 ton assault.

SmoothCriminal, on 21 July 2017 - 06:59 AM, said:

I feel it needs to be reiterated that you win this game by dishing out more damage on trades than the opposition. If that means pushing/rolling a flank, then fine - but if you are winning the damage battle there is zero reason throw yourself over the top.

Fair enough, though I'm not a fan of letting the other team get set up behind cover or get a push going; I do see your point though.

[l33tworks]

OrmsbyGore, on 05 August 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

No, you will die in 3 seconds if you walk slowly straight at the enemy by yourself. If 12 of you move on the enemy, trying to curve around and behind them, while the assault on point twists for all he's worth and the other 11 focus the enemy's most dangerous mech, you can pull out some pretty crushing victories.

Please do not conflate pushing with getting yourself killed.

What tier are you in? I find a single peek to alpha and then back into cover is enough to loose your entire torso you peeked from in an fully armored atlas if you peek in the early stages of the game. You have to wait till the last minute of the match to push in an assault (at which point the match is pribably already decided) or be VERY care with the position you peek from and not peek again for a while.

[OrmsbyGore]

l33tworks, on 05 August 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

What tier are you in? I find a single peek to alpha and then back into cover is enough to loose your entire torso you peeked from in an fully armored atlas if you peek in the early stages of the game. You have to wait till the last minute of the match to push in an assault (at which point the match is pribably already decided) or be VERY care with the position you peek from and not peek again for a while.

Tier 1 (not that that says anything about skill). You can get done in quick if you move in the open towards the enemy team alone. If you have friends drawing/returning fire and you managed to close the distance, different story.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

OrmsbyGore, on 05 August 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

No, you will die in 3 seconds if you walk slowly straight at the enemy by yourself. If 12 of you move on the enemy, trying to curve around and behind them, while the assault on point twists for all he's worth and the other 11 focus the enemy's most dangerous mech, you can pull out some pretty crushing victories.

Please do not conflate pushing with getting yourself killed.

But isn't that more like a daydream than what can actually happen?

Edited by Teer Kerensky, 05 August 2017 - 03:24 PM.

[OrmsbyGore]

Teer Kerensky, on 05 August 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

But isn't that more like a daydream than what can actually happen?

It's only a dream if no one does it