72 replies to this topic

[C4NC3R]

That is what I mean...
C-HeLL-SNOVA

[Reza Malin]

Lordhammer, on 21 July 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

Out of all 3, i only find Heavy Large Laser as good addition to clan weaponry. It does things no other clan laser can do, packs a very heavy punch for managable duration, decent range and low weight. It is actually really good on mechs like Shadowcat, that lacks hardpoints but has ecm and mobility to manage Heavy Lasers weaknesses.

I like heavy medium lasers when i have the space but not the tonnage for them and i cant afford the weight to take med pulse.

[Pxranger]

Heavy mediums are handy for added close in punch on lrm/ATM boats, 40 damage for 4 tons is nothing to sneeze at

[Baba Yogi]

Reza Malin, on 21 July 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

I like heavy medium lasers when i have the space but not the tonnage for them and i cant afford the weight to take med pulse.

The thing is though Heavy mediums have just too short of a range to be anything other than a backup weapon, for missile boats for example. It has terrible range and and is too hot to be a brawling weapon. Overall dps is not better than ERMeds since its cd is atrocious, nor the DPH has any advantage. In the end you trade slightly higher alpha for alot of utility such as shorter duration, much better range and less crits. I'd personally recommend utilizing ermeds instead of Hvm anytime. And for hardpoint starved mechs, HvLarge does much better job for just .1 sec more burn time. Almost double the damage and range for just 3 tons more and bit of crit space.

Edited by Lordhammer, 21 July 2017 - 09:23 AM.

[Reza Malin]

Lordhammer, on 21 July 2017 - 09:21 AM, said:

The thing is though Heavy mediums have just too short of a range to be anything other than a backup weapon, for missile boats for example. It has terrible range and and since its too hot to be a brawling weapon. Overall dps is not better than ERMeds since its cd is atrocious. In the end you trade slightly higher alpha for alot of utility such as shorter duration, much better range and less crits. I'd personally recommend utilizing ermeds instead of Hvm anytime. And for hardpoint starved mechs, HvLarge does much better job for just .1 sec more burn time. Almost double the damage and range for just 3 tons more and bit of crit space.

I know what you are saying, its just a balancing act really, i just like i have more options now to achieve the balance in my builds.

You forgot the main plus point of heavy meds, they sound frakking cool, lol.

[Gas Guzzler]

Lordhammer, on 21 July 2017 - 09:21 AM, said:

The thing is though Heavy mediums have just too short of a range to be anything other than a backup weapon, for missile boats for example. It has terrible range and and is too hot to be a brawling weapon. Overall dps is not better than ERMeds since its cd is atrocious, nor the DPH has any advantage. In the end you trade slightly higher alpha for alot of utility such as shorter duration, much better range and less crits. I'd personally recommend utilizing ermeds instead of Hvm anytime. And for hardpoint starved mechs, HvLarge does much better job for just .1 sec more burn time. Almost double the damage and range for just 3 tons more and bit of crit space.

On that awkward Mad Cat Mk. II I threw a Gauss in the shoulder and 2 HLL and 3 HML. Its gotten me great results so far, considering most would probably consider it the worst variant.

[Jay Leon Hart]

MCII-1 - 2 Gauss, 4 HML, 2 JJ, TC MK II, XL 350, 16 DHS, 6 tons ammo

Heresy, but good enough

[Bud Crue]

Nova ERML in the right arm to right side poke. 4 HML in the left arm when I get close. Can't fire together but last night they seemed pretty effective as a 1-2 punch.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jay Leon Hart, on 21 July 2017 - 09:32 AM, said:

MCII-1 - 2 Gauss, 4 HML, 2 JJ, TC MK II, XL 350, 16 DHS, 6 tons ammo

Heresy, but good enough

I did 2 HLL and 2 ER ML instead.

[Zergling]

The Heavy Large Laser is kind of a drop in replacement for the Large Pulse Laser.

Large Pulse Laser: 2.80 DPS, 0.47 DPS/ton, 1.20 damage/heat, 2.33 heat/second
Heavy Large Large: 2.47 DPS, 0.62 DPS/ton, 1.13 damage/heat, 2.19 heat/second

So while the Heavy Large has 12.4% less DPS than the Large Pulse, it also weighs 33.3% less, so it is significantly more DPS/ton efficient.

Further, the Heavy Large generates 0.14 less heat/second, so a build replacing a Large Pulse Laser with a Heavy Large can drop a double heatsink and still be slightly better at managing heat.

Large Pulse Laser + one DHS = 7 tons and 4 slots, versus the Heavy Large at 4 tons and 3 slots, so the Heavy Large ends up saving both weight and tonnage.


Of course, the disadvantages of the Heavy Large versus the Large Pulse is shorter range and longer beam duration, but it also has the advantage of higher alpha.

[Vesper11]

Zergling, on 21 July 2017 - 09:43 AM, said:

Large Pulse Laser: 2.80 DPS, 0.47 DPS/ton, 1.20 damage/heat, 2.33 heat/second
Heavy Large Large: 2.47 DPS, 0.62 DPS/ton, 1.13 damage/heat, 2.19 heat/second

Large Pulse Laser + one DHS = 7 tons and 4 slots, versus the Heavy Large at 4 tons and 3 slots, so the Heavy Large ends up saving both weight and tonnage.

How do you calculate the DPS? I know smurfy does it this way too but if its damage/cooldown why isn't it 3.75 for cLPL and 3.13 for cHLL?

Also more like 6 tons and 2 slots vs 6 tons and 7 slots (cHLL+2xDHS) for lighter mechs that got the slots but not the tonnage (and it's really great, expect fun police)

Edited by Vesper11, 21 July 2017 - 09:58 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Zergling, on 21 July 2017 - 09:43 AM, said:

*LPL vs HLL mathematical goodness*

Which brings me to the MCii-4 and what to do with it. I'm leaning towards 4 ATM6s, because they use the smaller geo for the first torso launcher, then it's a toss-up between 4 ERLLs, 4 LPLs and 4 HLLs.

HLLs end up running cooler just due to the weight difference, even though I have to drop FF to fit more DHS. Then ERLLs are slightly cooler still, with much better range, but 75% the damage potential.

[Zergling]

Vesper11, on 21 July 2017 - 09:57 AM, said:

How do you calculate the DPS? I know smurfy does it this way too but if its damage/cooldown why isn't it 3.75 for cLPL and 3.13 for cHLL?

The 'total time to cycle/reload' of a weapon includes beam duration, because weapons don't start their cooldown time until the beam has stopped firing.

So the total time for the Clan Large Pulse Laser to cycle once is 3.2 seconds cooldown plus 1.09 seconds beam duration, for 4.29 seconds.
Heavy Large Laser is 5.75 second cooldown plus 1.55 second beam duration for 7.30 seconds.

Then it is just damage divided by that total cycle/reload time.

Vesper11, on 21 July 2017 - 09:57 AM, said:

Also more like 6 tons and 2 slots vs 6 tons and 7 slots (cHLL+2xDHS) for lighter mechs that got the slots but not the tonnage (and it's really great, expect fun police)

Yeah, but with another two DHS, the Heavy Large Laser build will be running noticeably cooler than the Large Pulse Laser build.

Eg, a mech with just the base 10 engine DHS and two Large Pulse Lasers; it has a max DPS output of 5.59, but because its heat efficiency is just 42.90%, it only has a sustainable DPS of 2.40.
If the same mech swapped out the Large Pulse Lasers for Heavy Large Lasers and 4 more DHS, its maximum DPS output would drop to 4.93, but its heat efficiency would rise to 59.31% and its sustainable DPS to 2.93.

Edited by Zergling, 21 July 2017 - 10:13 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jay Leon Hart, on 21 July 2017 - 10:01 AM, said:

Which brings me to the MCii-4 and what to do with it. I'm leaning towards 4 ATM6s, because they use the smaller geo for the first torso launcher, then it's a toss-up between 4 ERLLs, 4 LPLs and 4 HLLs.

HLLs end up running cooler just due to the weight difference, even though I have to drop FF to fit more DHS. Then ERLLs are slightly cooler still, with much better range, but 75% the damage potential.

I did 2 12s and 2 9s and HMLs. Its hot, but those ATMs melt ****.

[Khobai]

Quote

So while the Heavy Large has 12.4% less DPS than the Large Pulse, it also weighs 33.3% less, so it is significantly more DPS/ton efficient.

but lack energy hardpoints and lack of tonnage arnt really an issue on most clan mechs. so most clan mechs just opt to use the LPL instead.

very few mechs meet all the criteria required for heavy lasers to be useful. Because heavy laser stats are quite frankly unimpressive and need a buff.

all the heavy lasers need the following heat reduction buffs

Heavy Small Laser should be 4.25 -> 3.7 Heat
Heavy Medium Laser should be 8 -> 7.5 Heat
Heavy Large Laser should be 16 -> 15 Heat

and the cooldowns are also still way too long. They need to shave at least .25s off each cooldown.

Heavy Small Laser should be 4s -> 3.75s
Heavy Medium Laser should be 5s -> 4.75s
Heavy Large Laser should be 5.75s -> 5.5s

Edited by Khobai, 21 July 2017 - 10:43 AM.

[Metus regem]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 July 2017 - 07:55 AM, said:

Consider use in any mech that used lpls and ermls and had slots to spare but not tons. Swap the LPLs for HLLs and add DHS. Also useful for low hardooint mechs.

Also... Cougar can mount 6ERML and 1 HLL with 19 DHS. A little hot but a 60 pt alpha in such a small package at 450 m cant be ignored.

2x HLL
2x HML
TC Mk.1

In an ADR-PRIME....

A little hot, but lots of punch.

[Zergling]

Khobai, on 21 July 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

but lack of tonnage isnt really an issue on most clan mechs. so most clan mechs just opt to use the LPL instead.

very few mechs meet all the criteria required for HLL to be useful

and in truth all the heavy lasers need the following buffs

Heavy Small Laser should be 4.25 -> 3.9 Heat
Heavy Medium Laser should be 8 -> 7.5 Heat
Heavy Large Laser should be 16 -> 15 Heat

and the cooldowns are also still way too long. They need to shave at least .25s off each cooldown.

Heavy Small Laser should be 4s -> 3.75s
Heavy Medium Laser should be 5s -> 4.75s
Heavy Large Laser should be 5.75s -> 5.5s

I'm not opposed to those sorts of buffs, although I'd prefer the Heavy Small damage buffed to 7.0, and Heavy Med/Heavy Large duration dropped by 0.1 each instead of the cooldown buffs.


As for lack of tonnage... depending on the build, even assaults can benefit from swapping Large Pulse to Heavy Large.

Eg, take Mad Cat Mk II-2, which only has 2 energy hardpoints.
2x Gauss + 2x Large Pulse, with 14 double heatsinks
versus
2x Gauss + 2x Heavy Large, with 18 double heatsinks

As smurfy indicates, the cooling efficiency and sustained DPS goes up significantly with the Heavy Large Lasers.

Although to be fair, they only have maxed armor and a TarComp I because the Heavy Large build ran out of slots for anything else.
The Large Pulse build could lose some leg armor and the TarComp for another pair of heatsinks, but it'd still end up inferior in sustained DPS output, although not by quite as much.

Edited by Zergling, 21 July 2017 - 10:49 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I'm not opposed to those sorts of buffs, although I'd prefer the Heavy Small damage buffed to 7.0, and Heavy Med/Heavy Large duration dropped by 0.1 each instead of the cooldown buffs.

heavy laser damage is set at twice the value of the IS std lasers

ISSL = 3.25 damage so CHSL = 6.5 damage
ISML = 5 damage so CHML = 10 damage
ISLL = 9 damage so CHLL = 18 damage

its literally just two IS std lasers duct taped together and shoved in one hardpoint

which means heavy laser heat should be only slightly higher than twice the value of the IS std lasers (because were getting 2 weapons in 1 hardpoint at reduced tonnage, that has to come with a heat cost, cooldown cost, and duration cost)

the longer duration is fine as it is now. they do massive damage per tick as they should. but the heat and the cooldowns are both a little too high. reduce the heat and cooldowns to what I suggested and well have something we can work with.

Edited by Khobai, 21 July 2017 - 10:51 AM.

[Prototelis]

Super fun on Shadowcat. I do two heavy large and three HMG on that.

Also fun on the energy boat hunchback.

[Gas Guzzler]

Metus regem, on 21 July 2017 - 10:36 AM, said:

2x HLL
2x HML
TC Mk.1

In an ADR-PRIME....

A little hot, but lots of punch.

I'd suggest dropping the tc and running 2 HLL and 3 ERMLs. That way you are doing full damage out to ~440ish.. Worth a try IMO.