60 replies to this topic

[Bonzai VI]

There are seriously people actively defending the high burn time of the heavy lasers? What the hell? And you talk about PGI has no idea of their own game when you, (at least some) of the players don't even know it yourself...

(I am assuming that the guy fighting the heavy lasers WILL push them cuz of their abnormal cooldown times. Cuz that is what one should do.)

The main problem is not the spread that incurs when firin a freakin 1.55 heavy large. But the return fire. If there is an enemy with, say, c-medium pulse lasers. He shoots and twists away after 0.81 seconds dealing dmg to your center since you're also trying to shoot his center. But you're shooting for 1.4 seconds (Skill tree) to put your whole dmg through. So he has time to twist and the rest of your dmg goes into his arm which is there to shield. Now he produced ~30% heat and you 50-60%. He will shoot again in 3 seconds. You'll wait for 5.75 seconds. He will shoot you two times and then run away and you can't respond.

But this is actually quite even. When he's not pushing you and you can safely retreat.

Now take this to AC lvl. Say it's a warhammer with 2 UAC-10s + 4 ml. He has a 60 point alpha. This one is pin-point (granted he has to be able to actually aim) since you're also shooting your lasers at the same time. But he will shoot his uacs 3 times before you can get your second shot off.

(Those two also have superior ranges. They can and will engage you before you can deal your full dmg.)

On paper it's okay. But in practice? Every player that has knowledge of weapons and the mechs that carry them will beat the *cough* out of you.

Don't know what your playstyles are, but i play so i can get rid of as many enemy mechs as i am capable off. When I'm pugging in CW i (not that uncommon) have games in which I've got 12+ KMDD. (I'm sry that it sounds like bragging) This is possible cuz of DPS.

You've got basically none with heavy lasers. You cannot build up pressure. You can't work with your team. And you've also got no range. In those 450 meters heavy large and 270 meters heavy mediums? In this range my Black Knight with his sustainable 60 point alpha with a duration of 0.77 (lrg pulse far faster) will COMPLETELY wreck you. (Granted, it's very hard to play)
And there are UAC20s. And SRM's. They will beat you up.

TL;DR Heavy Lasers are basically brawl weapons cuz of their range. And every true brawl weapon will stomp them in heat + DPS. But with a lower Duration, (Why do heavy lasers have longer duration then ER laser again?) They can work despite their drawbacks.

I don't mean flat out buffing them, take the dmg of the heavy large to 15 and reduce the duration to 1.25 or something like that. (No serious values, just want to give you the idea)

Edit: C-ER-Medium Lasers work well with Heavy smalls cooldown and duration wise. That should actually tell you enough. (FYI med-lasers 400 meters heavy smalls 115 meters range. One is a sniper/mid-range weapon and the other a brawl weapon.)

Edit Nr. 2: Sry for the rant but i had to get this out.

Edited by Bonzai VI, 24 July 2017 - 03:53 AM.

[LemraCZek]

I think the heavy lazors all allroght. Been using 4H Med laser on cheetah and heavy large on summoners or mad cat II, and feels just about balanced.
ATMS suck, period.
UAC seem balanced to me. I have been pleasantly surprised by IS UAC2, when I put 4 in my Black Widow, with XL340, I can do a ton of damage. And the sound! Like a Tie Figher .
Light gauss worhless atm. Heavy gauss also.Lgauss needs either a cooldown buff, or dmg buff, otherwise it just is not worth the tonnage. Hgauss not worth also.

[Bonzai VI]

@ LemraCZek

ATMs suck? Well we have VERY differentiating opinions then. If those would be slightly buffed the lurmaggedon will look like kidsplay.
Do you even use them as they are intended? They are very hard to play (primarily since no other weapon has that play style and one has to learn it from scratch) so i actually doubt you played enough with those.

Much like LRMs are actually hard to play (and actually fun) but sadly aren't very rewarding.

But ATMs are.

It's the same as with RACs. Those are Heavy/Assaults killers. HBK-IIC with 3 ATM 9 for example - thats a 81 dmg alpha at 300 meters with low exposure time (not counting in my 2 mpl) And no the spread isn't that bad. You hit around (absolute minimum) 65-70 dmg in the center of an assault. Just take a BAP (dunno how the light BAP actually works regarding the reduced lock-on time - does it reduce it by the same amount?) and a light-tag (sadly doesn't reduce the spread of the ATMs, only works for LRMs) and you've practically got a insta lock-on.

[BTGbullseye]

ATMs don't take skill to play, they take luck... You have to be lucky enough to get put up against a team with absolutely no AMS coverage, or your ATMs are totally worthless with less than a pair of 12's. If they have 2x AMS coverage, you can't carry enough ATMs to do any damage beyond 150m. (that leaves a 30m window where you do about 25% damage output)

I can't fit enough ATMs on a MCII-2 (4x ATM12) to do any damage through 2x AMS at 270m+, whereas a 70 LRM blast (2x LRM20+A 2x LRM15+A) can get through a half-dozen AMS systems with at least 50% damage dealt, and it's effective at every distance. It isn't just math that completely disagrees with your opinion, but also real match activity.

Edited by BTGbullseye, 24 July 2017 - 01:03 PM.

[Appuagab]

Bonzai VI, on 24 July 2017 - 01:09 AM, said:

The main problem is not the spread that incurs when firin a freakin 1.55 heavy large. But the return fire.

Yep, heavy lasers surely aren't brawling weapon. Unless you combine heavy meds with dakka maybe. Heavy larges surely suck at face-to-face trading but catching some careless robot with stripped armor and melting his face in a single alpha is priceless. Or being a sneaky armor stealer. Just don't use heavy lazors as replacement for pulses in stale vomit spam builds, they're not about that.

[Bonzai VI]

@BTGbullseye

And that is where you need the most skill to make them work.

Granted yeah, AMS do take down way to many ATMs and the Missile health should be buffed, but on the other side AMS just doesn't do anything against LRMs. BTW: 2 AMS buffed with the skill tree are capable off holding off 14 ATMs at a range of 300. If you get closer, MUCH less missiles get taken down. One pays with tonnage + slots. Things that are at least 1 heat sink and probably 2 heat sinks.

But like with practically every weapon you need the right conditions to make them work.

You can't carry 4 HPPCs on Vitric Forge and expect it to work, you've got way to much heat build-up and the enemy will just get close to you. But on Alpine Peaks? Play it right and you'll deal tons of dmg. (Not guaranteed, just an example )

Same with LRMs: Good luck using them on Crimson Strait. In comparison, ATMs fly directly to the enemy and you will be able to play them there.

There's your needed skill. You'll have to change positions to maneuver away from the AMS guys if you want to use your ATMs to the fullest. With the right loadout, you will be able to drive him away and then use your ATMs on another target for example. But remember: Either he builds heat up or he loses serious amounts of ammo shooting your missiles down.

BTW: With your example of the Mad Cat with 4 ATM12, you better take some off-weaponry.

I don't own any Mad Cats but i did some theory crafting. I could imagine playing something like this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ba74c754a443e5e

(But i would probably just not take any missiles at all here, doesn't seem like the best choice^^ SRMs at best.)



@Appuagab

Sounds like heavy lasers are meant for QP and not CW eh?^^

Cuz there it's trading and brawling. Stuff heavy lasers can't do

Edited by Bonzai VI, 25 July 2017 - 03:11 AM.

[Gasboy]

Kompleks Ognevoi Podderzhki 320, on 21 July 2017 - 08:35 AM, said:

2 days I played at minimum 6 hours at day. On quick play I have see 1 -2 clan mechs. All anothere mechs - Inner Sphere. I think its becouse clan "OP" and nobody want to be on "OP" mech. Hm... or maybe it becouse new weapon ? 55 bushwacker dealing 100 dMG at 3 - 4 sec... I repeat ! 55 ... tons.... 100 dmg... But maybe u say > clans have powerful.... (what ?)

You've not run into 4xSRM6 on a 55 tonner before? Stormcrow, Griffin 2N, the Kintaros. Shadowhawks can do 2-3 SRM6 with medium lasers. 100 damage in 3-4 seconds hasn't been unheard off since the start.

[Gasboy]

Bonzai VI, on 24 July 2017 - 01:09 AM, said:

The main problem is not the spread that incurs when firin a freakin 1.55 heavy large. But the return fire. If there is an enemy with, say, c-medium pulse lasers. He shoots and twists away after 0.81 seconds dealing dmg to your center since you're also trying to shoot his center. But you're shooting for 1.4 seconds (Skill tree) to put your whole dmg through. So he has time to twist and the rest of your dmg goes into his arm which is there to shield. Now he produced ~30% heat and you 50-60%. He will shoot again in 3 seconds. You'll wait for 5.75 seconds. He will shoot you two times and then run away and you can't respond.

This assumes you're boating HLL though. If instead you're running a laser vomit, then you've got c-ERMLs, which pair up nicely (range-wise) with HLL. And since those two weapons' optimal range is close to the c-MPL's max range, you can fight at the c-MPL's max range and do more damage. Perhaps HLL aren't meant as a pure brawling weapon, despite their range?

Bonzai VI, on 24 July 2017 - 01:09 AM, said:

But this is actually quite even. When he's not pushing you and you can safely retreat.

Maybe this is the trade-off? You have heavy damage lasers that build up lots of heat and have a lengthy cool down, which makes them better suited to mid-range pokes over trades and brawling.

Bonzai VI, on 24 July 2017 - 01:09 AM, said:

Now take this to AC lvl. Say it's a warhammer with 2 UAC-10s + 4 ml. He has a 60 point alpha. This one is pin-point (granted he has to be able to actually aim) since you're also shooting your lasers at the same time. But he will shoot his uacs 3 times before you can get your second shot off.

That Warhammer build isn't exactly an optimal brawl build either. Yes, he has to aim, and he has to spend more facetime to get the second shots off, which means your lasers get more burn time on that center, left or right torso. Also, you seem to conveniently forget that the UAC-10 will probably jam after the second shot. Which means his weapons are inoperable for longer than the cooldown of those heavy lasers. And the heat seems to build up quite quickly using 2 UAC-10s too.

Bonzai VI, on 24 July 2017 - 01:09 AM, said:

(Those two also have superior ranges. They can and will engage you before you can deal your full dmg.)

UAC-10s have the same optimal and max range as HLL. Also, your statement "they can and will engage you before you can deal your full damage" is confusing. They won't be doing full damage either when they "engage" you.

Bonzai VI, on 24 July 2017 - 01:09 AM, said:

On paper it's okay. But in practice? Every player that has knowledge of weapons and the mechs that carry them will beat the *cough* out of you.

This has always been true. And the better players know not to try to make weapons do things they're not suited for.

Bonzai VI, on 24 July 2017 - 01:09 AM, said:

You've got basically none with heavy lasers. You cannot build up pressure. You can't work with your team. And you've also got no range. In those 450 meters heavy large and 270 meters heavy mediums? In this range my Black Knight with his sustainable 60 point alpha with a duration of 0.77 (lrg pulse far faster) will COMPLETELY wreck you. (Granted, it's very hard to play)
And there are UAC20s. And SRM's. They will beat you up.

You're suddenly unable to work with your team when you equip HLL? You're unable to take advantage of distracted mechs that are currently trying to kill a team mate? You can't poke? And the Black Knight is suddenly hard to play, is it? What? As for UAC20s, those seem to jam more often than the 10s. And the HLL can operate outside the range of SRMs and UAC20s, and still do the large majority of its damage.

Look, in any situation, there are weapons which are better suited for what you're trying to do. Complaining that HLLs can't brawl is like complaining SRMs can't snipe, or that LRMs can't brawl.

[Bonzai VI]

Gasboy, on 25 July 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

And since those two weapons' optimal range is close to the c-MPL's max range, you can fight at the c-MPL's max range and do more damage.

Well then, take LPL. I don't care if IS or Clan^^

Gasboy, on 25 July 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

Perhaps HLL aren't meant as a pure brawling weapon, despite their range?

Well they will have to fight brawling weapons and i think you know what happens when they have to.
It's fine if everyone is in his safezone and deal his full dmg, but what happens if you get out of that safezone? Will your weapon be able to deal with that situation? Well heavy lasers won't. The mech carrying them will get completely destroyed.

Gasboy, on 25 July 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

Maybe this is the trade-off? You have heavy damage lasers that build up lots of heat and have a lengthy cool down, which makes them better suited to mid-range pokes over trades and brawling.

So they're only good if you're not getting shot at... Trading and brawling are 95% of the game, if we play the same game^^
But the problem is: if you're poking with it and the enemy has to notice you and turn to you. He will (probably) get his full dmg out while you're struggling to get the full duration of your heavy lasers on him.

And yeah, if everyone can play in his safezone everything is fine. But when something goes of the rails, how much will your weapon suck then? In the case of heavys: A LOT.

Gasboy, on 25 July 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

That Warhammer build isn't exactly an optimal brawl build either.

It's not supposed to be.

Gasboy, on 25 July 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

Yes, he has to aim, and he has to spend more facetime to get the second shots off, which means your lasers get more burn time on that center, left or right torso.

Wat. You can get the UAC10 shot (+ second shot) in under a second. As soon as your lasers are finished burning you twist away. Or should at least.

Gasboy, on 25 July 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

UAC-10s have the same optimal and max range as HLL. Also, your statement "they can and will engage you before you can deal your full damage" is confusing. They won't be doing full damage either when they "engage" you.

Since i posted a full loadout i also thought about boating heavy lasers. So there would also be heavy meds, since they fit pretty well cuz of the duration and slightly cuz of the cooldown. (They're both horridly long^^) The Warhammer will fire at 360 meters cuz of his er-meds and the heavy meds have a range of 270. But you probably know that.
Should have made it clearer sorry.

Edit: And since when do UACs jam that often?^^

Gasboy, on 25 July 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

You're suddenly unable to work with your team when you equip HLL? You're unable to take advantage of distracted mechs that are currently trying to kill a team mate? You can't poke?

Like i already said, you aren't able to produce enough pressure.

You can shoot at distracted mechs once. And then watch as the enemy kills your team mate. With another equip you would be able to also do DPS and kill the enemy before he kills your guy.

Poking with heavy lasers? You're open before you fire your third shot^^

Gasboy, on 25 July 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

And the Black Knight is suddenly hard to play, is it?

He has extreme low mounts and his heat management is very hard + he's a tank.
The loadout is what makes him hard to play.

Gasboy, on 25 July 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

As for UAC20s, those seem to jam more often than the 10s.

They have the same jam chance. And you shoot the 10s more often then the 20s, so it's just your personal experience.

Gasboy, on 25 July 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

And the HLL can operate outside the range of SRMs and UAC20s, and still do the large majority of its damage.

Yeah you will do the large majority of your dmg, but in what components? I thought a guy that isn't shooting at you will just look at you while you burn through his center.

Your dmg may look high but how much did you effectively place?

Gasboy, on 25 July 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

Look, in any situation, there are weapons which are better suited for what you're trying to do. Complaining that HLLs can't brawl is like complaining SRMs can't snipe, or that LRMs can't brawl.

Thing is, heavy lasers can't do anything that other weapons can't do better. They have no role since you, can't poke with them, you can't trade, they're heat inefficient etc.

And that's in their effective range. When they start to brawl it's just over for the guy carrying heavy lasers.

Edited by Bonzai VI, 25 July 2017 - 09:42 AM.

[LemraCZek]

Bonzai VI, on 24 July 2017 - 05:18 AM, said:

@ LemraCZek ATMs suck? Well we have VERY differentiating opinions then. If those would be slightly buffed the lurmaggedon will look like kidsplay. Do you even use them as they are intended? They are very hard to play (primarily since no other weapon has that play style and one has to learn it from scratch) so i actually doubt you played enough with those. Much like LRMs are actually hard to play (and actually fun) but sadly aren't very rewarding. But ATMs are. It's the same as with RACs. Those are Heavy/Assaults killers. HBK-IIC with 3 ATM 9 for example - thats a 81 dmg alpha at 300 meters with low exposure time (not counting in my 2 mpl) And no the spread isn't that bad. You hit around (absolute minimum) 65-70 dmg in the center of an assault. Just take a BAP (dunno how the light BAP actually works regarding the reduced lock-on time - does it reduce it by the same amount?) and a light-tag (sadly doesn't reduce the spread of the ATMs, only works for LRMs) and you've practically got a insta lock-on.

Good luck getting close for that alfa in FW, all I have to say....

[Bonzai VI]

LemraCZek, on 25 July 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

Good luck getting close for that alfa in FW, all I have to say....

That's why you don't carry it on every single mech.

That's why you should carry ATMs when you're in siege defending. Since the enemy will have to get close to you.

To some extend it could work on some siege attack maps, but I'm not sure about that.

Edit: Why did you even delete the spaces when quoting me tho? O-o

Edited by Bonzai VI, 25 July 2017 - 09:28 AM.

[CraneArmy]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 July 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

I think rate of fire is more likely, since the base is a pretty amazing "4.00", which is also a disparate jump from the AC/5 and makes the AC/20 look like a raw deal if DPS is your angle. Nerfing the ammo count has further reaching consequences than just nerfing the AC/10.

I'm just talking about AC10 ammo, across the board it is 200 potential damage per ton
ac2/ac5/ac20 damage per ton is 150/150/140. making ac10 ammo much more efficient than any other ac weapon for both IS and clan.
the cooldown for AC10 is perfectly aligned with all the other AC's
the weight of the AC10 is out of line with all the other AC's which is why they raised the ammo count. The higher ammo count causes your effective weight of carrying the weapon (with ammo) is essentially 1-1.5 tons lower.

again, I dont know that its THAT strong, but if you were going to nerf something it would make sense to nerf the ammo count first.

[Bonzai VI]

CraneArmy, on 25 July 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

I'm just talking about AC10 ammo, across the board it is 200 potential damage per ton
ac2/ac5/ac20 damage per ton is 150/150/140. making ac10 ammo much more efficient than any other ac weapon for both IS and clan.
the cooldown for AC10 is perfectly aligned with all the other AC's
the weight of the AC10 is out of line with all the other AC's which is why they raised the ammo count. The higher ammo count causes your effective weight of carrying the weapon (with ammo) is essentially 1-1.5 tons lower.

again, I dont know that its THAT strong, but if you were going to nerf something it would make sense to nerf the ammo count first.

But since it's not too strong it won't get nerfed which makes this conversation pretty stupid right?^^

You're probably right about it being the right place if it gets out of hand, but that day probably won't come^^

[Appuagab]

Bonzai VI, on 25 July 2017 - 03:10 AM, said:

Sounds like heavy lasers are meant for QP and not CW eh?^^

Exactly. My favorite ERML-HLL-vomit Timber Wolf feels like wasted drop even in successful games. But I consider this Faction Play's problem, not weapon's.

[Bonzai VI]

Appuagab, on 25 July 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

Exactly. My favorite ERML-HLL-vomit Timber Wolf feels like wasted drop even in successful games. But I consider this Faction Play's problem, not weapon's.

Seems i wasn't clear enough before sry^^

But that's my point, the weapon is so bad that it isn't worth taking in CW matches where it's important to perform.

And since CW is basically QP with 4 drops, i dont quite get how it's not the weapons fault for not working.

Edited by Bonzai VI, 25 July 2017 - 10:15 AM.

[BTGbullseye]

Bonzai VI, on 25 July 2017 - 09:21 AM, said:

That's why you don't carry it on every single mech.

That's why you should carry ATMs when you're in siege defending. Since the enemy will have to get close to you.

To some extend it could work on some siege attack maps, but I'm not sure about that.

Edit: Why did you even delete the spaces when quoting me tho? O-o

The problem still arises that since LAMS is here, more people than not are carrying it, and they effectively completely neutralize ATMs... AMS isn't supposed to be able to completely wipe out 9 ATM missiles fired in their 2 damage zone, or 6 in their 3 damage zone in TT, so why are they able to here? ATM missiles need to be almost triple the health of LRM missiles to make it even.

[Bonzai VI]

BTGbullseye, on 24 July 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

[...]You have to be lucky enough to get put up against a team with absolutely no AMS coverage, or your ATMs are totally worthless[...]

Bonzai VI, on 25 July 2017 - 03:10 AM, said:

[...]AMS do take down way to many ATMs and the Missile health should be buffed[...]

We both already said that. Why are you repeating yourself?

[BTGbullseye]

Because there are too many other people who don't seem to be able to understand that AMS is a hard counter to ATMs... Like original ECM kind of hard-counter... As in, not going to make a dent... As in it's worthless to even bother trying...


I have yet to be put against a team that didn't have at least 4x AMS systems, and those AMS mechs are usually hiding until the rest of their team distracts your team enough that the AMS mechs are always the last to die. There is no skill involved with ATMs when the enemy team does nothing different than normal anti-LRM tactics, and completely neutralizes them.

Edited by BTGbullseye, 25 July 2017 - 02:35 PM.

[Ragnahawk]

Airstrikes are better than rockets. It has minimum range of 50 m and one use. Can't even core out an assault with 4 of them from exact minimum range.

[Bonzai VI]

@BTGbullseye

yeah... no. I'm not gonna repeat myself.

@Ragnahawk

Well, air/artystrikes are ******** right now anyways... they're practically better than every weapon since nothing has that damage output.^^