1809 replies to this topic

[ice trey]

Kin3ticX, on 23 July 2017 - 09:00 PM, said:

According to legal docs, HG sent a nasty email to PGI in Oct 2016, then filed the suit in March 2017. So the trouble started whereabouts late 2016.

PGI also went to HG with concept art twice in 2013 and was told nope and nope. From the doc they use the names of the mechs which makes it pretty clear they inquired about the Warhammer and Marauder.

Fast foward to fall 2015 during the townhall where they launched the Marauder/Warhammer and Russ said they would defend their classic mechs as their own.

Here is the townhall if anyone wants to relisten at the ~55:00 mark
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/15444238


I have no idea how any of this **** works but just from skimming through this garbo it seems they think its derivative of their IP.

What worries me is that the word "Derivative" is so damn vague that depending on what their mood is on any given day, they could argue that a Starslayer or Hatchetman is "Derivative" of one of their works. The rate might not exactly be successful, but they could still argue it. Do Homages fall under the same category?

The other thing is that while we might be able to argue that there were changes made in order to differentiate while still being inspired by the original, if they go to a jury, what does the layman think? I know people IRL that can't tell the difference between Clints, Whitworths, Hermes IIs, Panthers, and Trebuchets all because they're bipedal humanoid designs. I once showed Battletech to a friend and the first word out of his mouth was "Oh, like Transformers!". The honest truth is that most average joes don't give a damn about either, and they're not pulling the jury from LGSes and comic book shops.

[Kin3ticX]

ice trey, on 26 July 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

What worries me is that the word "Derivative" is so damn vague that depending on what their mood is on any given day, they could argue that a Starslayer or Hatchetman is "Derivative" of one of their works. The rate might not exactly be successful, but they could still argue it. Do Homages fall under the same category?

The other thing is that while we might be able to argue that there were changes made in order to differentiate while still being inspired by the original, if they go to a jury, what does the layman think? I know people IRL that can't tell the difference between Clints, Whitworths, Hermes IIs, Panthers, and Trebuchets all because they're bipedal humanoid designs. I once showed Battletech to a friend and the first word out of his mouth was "Oh, like Transformers!". The honest truth is that most average joes don't give a damn about either, and they're not pulling the jury from LGSes and comic book shops.

PGI is probably at least a little scared of having random average citizens comparing Warhammers and Tomahawks or whatever HG calls them.

Defendants crumple during jury selection itself sometimes. Jury in some sense are just another pawn in negotiation. In fact, when you go to jury duty a lot of those cases settle and the jurors just read books and twiddle their thumbs in the jury waitroom.

This thing either needs to get thrown out somehow or settle. I don't like the idea of a jury at all, not one bit. Going to jury is a crapshoot because to a random Dodgers fan.... that Rifleman looks a lot like the other thing.

You can also have situations where the Judges sympathize and the field is tilted against you.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

You can't settle with HG unless it folds your company.

There will hopefully be no bowing to them this time.

Copy right cases seem to be a bit different than normal civil cases.

Edited by Mechwarrior1441491, 26 July 2017 - 08:07 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Tombstoner, on 26 July 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

I am also not a lawyer, but i know one of the criteria for judging copy right infringement is, can you tell the difference between the original and the copy in such a way that it avoids confusion for the laymen, not someone acquainted with the IP. Sadly i think HG's clam will stand especially for the Rifleman/marauder. If i was PGI i would have used the artwork from the original BT source book to derive from simply because they look so much better.

http://www.sarna.net...hoenix_Hawk_IIC
http://www.sarna.net...i/Warhammer_IIC
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Marauder_IIC

The others are also on sarna. Unfortunately i think HG's claim is valid.

If that were true then no one could make any mech variants because they would all look slightly like one of these mechs. For one thing, all of PGI's mechs have smaller feet than Studio Nue's Macross models, they are wider with different armatures, they have a resemblance to the unseens, but are arranged differently with different proportions. What the question here is are all mechs copyright infringements of a few original mechs or do variations on design create something original?

HG did not create Macross, Studio Nue did, so I am not going to allow HG to claim creation credit for what they did not create. HG can file a lawsuit, but I have never seen them do anything but distribute content created by others.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

all Cars derivates from the good Old Ford Automobile , each Technical Desin is a Derivate from a Other , each Motorcycle a derivate from Harley ,or BMW ..what the great Different from a Harley Davidson or a Suzuki Marauder? (its the Logo/Trademark)...what HG make is the modern form of highway robbery..."Lawsuit Way robbery" like the Inquisition from Apple against each little company that use a Apple in the Logo ,time to stop this modern Copyright Bushwackers...Have HG each own unique creative Copyright Element of his Robotech Mechs ,like a Logo or Trademark (Mercedes Star, Ferrari or Colt horse )of his mech and use PGI this ...no

https://www.theguard...e-apple-germany

for me looks like a Last battle from HG ...a "Endsieg" or Dead Philosphy

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 26 July 2017 - 09:20 PM.

[xVLFBERHxT]

is this why the marauder IIc looks like the reseen model?

[Dee Eight]

darqsyde, on 26 July 2017 - 06:47 PM, said:

I suspect the suing of HBS is more to drag PGI into an American court, as opposed to a Canadian court. IIRC, a Canadian court is more likely to look favourably at the Japanese ownership ruling, thereby likely putting HGs claims in serious jeopardy. However, I'm not even remotely close to a lawyer and my reading of the situation could be horribly off-base.

It is also my opinion that HG is seriously stretching with the examples they have selected in the argument against HBS. I mean, PGI, HBS & CGL can easily show the development and evolution of the Atlas, Locust and Shadowhawk, and how they are not even close to the various Robotech images.

This has likely all come bubbling to the surface again due to Sony's resurgent interest in getting a Robotech movie off the ground. IMO, Sony would be better served getting the Live-action Macross rights, and circumventing HG that way.

Well... there's a Battle Angel Alita live action movie planned, and we've just had GITS a few months ago. There's already been live action Space Battleship Yamato also. And speed racer. We just need Macross, Science Ninja Team Gatchaman, Patlabor and ohhh.... Appleseed maybe.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

xVLFBERHxT, on 26 July 2017 - 09:18 PM, said:

is this why the marauder IIc looks like the reseen model?

Alex Iglesias(Shimmering Sword) use his own very old Reseen Design from the Marauder IIC and thats a Different loooking Way to the "Unseen"

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 26 July 2017 - 09:25 PM.

[Dee Eight]

Scratx, on 26 July 2017 - 02:38 PM, said:

Harmony Gold holds nothing more than the international distribution rights of the original Macross. Not any of the sequels. Nor the characters, mech designs, etc. Plus, Delta, Frontier, etc? Nope, HG has no rights to any of that.

i am more than well aware of what HG holds for rights thank you.

[Dee Eight]

Metus regem, on 26 July 2017 - 02:38 PM, said:

Now don't get me wrong there is nothing inherently bad about Delta, but the story felt too rushed, the ending felt too deus ex machina with the bad guy's top ace switching sides at the last moment... Some characters were left a little two denominational in terms of character growth (Mirage) and it was stuffed full of teen age high-jinks... Aside from the mechs, it didn't feel very macross-y to me.

Ummm....just how familiar with the Macross franchise are you ? Every series follows the same plot lines and themes... HELL... Frontier and Delta both copied the original Macross Episode 1 for how to introduce the new young pilot and the damsel in distress who became the new star singer. All the Macross TV series in the official continuity involved a singer, an "enemy" ace pilot switching allegiences, young hotshot pilot, wise older mentor pilot, the miss-understood enemy who later became allies or at least co-existed peacefully afterwards, etc. They were all very Macross-y to me. Delta at least stood apart in being the first to introduce new races of other protoculture descendants other than the Humans and Zentradi.

advance to 7:50 and then compare to....



starting at 4:10 and to this starting at 2:30....

Notice a pattern ? Macross tv series are like the Star Wars trilogies (which also follow the same chapter and verse patterns).

Edited by Dee Eight, 26 July 2017 - 10:23 PM.

[Dee Eight]

Squigles, on 26 July 2017 - 04:07 PM, said:

So, take the rifleman for example. The upper body is basically a Tunguska (not original). The lower portion are simply legs (not original). Now, maybe they try and argue that putting legs on it makes it original. However, this would in effect declare that all bipedal weapons systems are the original creation of Harmony Gold (LOL) and render pretty much every bit of mecha in existence infringing.

Except...they didn't actually create the art work anyway, so they cannot claim copyright rights for it. But you cannot use a Tunguska or anything that came after SDF:Macross as being examples that the thing drew inspiration from. You can only cite stuff that came before the original animation was being done. Remember the mechanical designer who created all the original artwork, Shōji Kawamori, also did all the vakyrie designs for EVERY Macross animation series that followed. Mobile Suit Gundam ironically was the most likely inspiration for Macross, and it first broadcast in 1979. The Tunguska wasn't widely known in the west outside military circles until after the breakup of the soviet union and certainly not to some 19 year olds at a Japanese university in 1979.

As to the FASA vs Playmates lawsuit... that one actually will now pay off for HBS/PGI/Jordan because it set a precedent for this sort of copyright claim already. While the playmates toys did seem, taken in the overall terms, to be copied from the FASA designs... the judge having ruled that they only superficially resembled the originals, that they were not in violation. The same as happened a few years ago in the HG vs Hasbro lawsuit over the transformers/GI Joe skystriker-Jetfire toy that was exclusively sold at the San Diego Comic Con in I believe 2012.

Hell there have been a lot closer copies in the aviation world in terms of appearances than you see in mecha and toys.

SEPECAT Jaguar...




Mitsubishi F1





Both were completely independent developments, though they use the same engines and the F1/T2 development arose after the Japanese SDF had considered purchasing a license to locally manufacture a variant of the Sepecat Jaguar. Japan is big on locally built licensed copies of existing designs if it makes good economic sense to do so. The F2 is a variant of the F-16, and the F-15J is a variant of the F-15, and were largely built in Japan by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. Japan is also buying a version of the F-35 and 38 of the total 41 ordered so far are to be built in Japan by again... M.H.I.

Edited by Dee Eight, 26 July 2017 - 10:59 PM.

[Dee Eight]

Kin3ticX, on 26 July 2017 - 07:57 PM, said:

PGI is probably at least a little scared of having random average citizens comparing Warhammers and Tomahawks or whatever HG calls them.

Tomahawk = Macross
Warhammer = Battletech
Excaliber = Robotech

Defender = Macross
Rifleman = Battletech
Raider X = Robotech

Spartan = Macross
Archer = Battletech
Gladiator = Robotech

Armored Valkyrie = Macross
Crusader = Battletech
Armored Veritech = Robotech

Phalanx = Macross
Longbow = Battletech
Spartan = Robotech

The Monster in Macross which became the M.A.C. II in Robotech didn't get used in Battletech, but the Stone Rhino was largely inspired by the artwork for it.

Valkyrie = Macross
Veritech = Robotech
Stinger, Wasp, Valkyrie designs for Battletech.

The Super Pack Valkyrie equates to a Super Veritech and to the Phoenix Hawk in Battletech. Robotech and Battletech have no versions of the Strike Valkyrie.

[Requiemking]

Well, I don't see Harmony Gold standing a good chance. Juries aren't really a thing in copyright cases as far as I know, so that probably won't be an issue. Not to mention Harmony Gold's dubious claim to the IP(which seems to be growing weaker by the day) and the fact that Revell, not Harmony Gold, own the international rights to the mechs.

[Adridos]

Old MW4 Ranger, on 26 July 2017 - 09:24 PM, said:

Alex Iglesias(Shimmering Sword) use his own very old Reseen Design from the Marauder IIC and thats a Different loooking Way to ts "Unseen"

Alex Iglesias goes by the nickname of Flying Debris.
Shimmering Sword is a different Battletech artist.

Also, the IIC mechs are just Japanese redesigns of the original mechs for the first Mechwarrior game (basically the originals done in 90s aesthetic).

[Juodas Varnas]

Adridos, on 27 July 2017 - 12:35 AM, said:

Alex Iglesias goes by the nickname of Flying Debris.
Shimmering Sword is a different Battletech artist.

Also, the IIC mechs are just Japanese redesigns of the original mechs for the first Mechwarrior game (basically the originals done in 90s aesthetic).

Aye, Shimmering Sword is Anthony Scroggins.

[Karl Streiger]

Adridos, on 27 July 2017 - 12:35 AM, said:

Alex Iglesias goes by the nickname of Flying Debris.
Shimmering Sword is a different Battletech artist.

Also, the IIC mechs are just Japanese redesigns of the original mechs for the first Mechwarrior game (basically the originals done in 90s aesthetic).

this is Shimmering Swords Marauder that was used for the Succession Wars Marauder 4X


did i mention - I want Binarys NOW

Edited by Karl Streiger, 27 July 2017 - 12:58 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Adridos, on 27 July 2017 - 12:35 AM, said:

Alex Iglesias goes by the nickname of Flying Debris.
Shimmering Sword is a different Battletech artist.

Also, the IIC mechs are just Japanese redesigns of the original mechs for the first Mechwarrior game (basically the originals done in 90s aesthetic).

ok , thanks for it you rights ...thats my Fault ...

[Squigles]

Dee Eight, on 26 July 2017 - 10:50 PM, said:

Except...they didn't actually create the art work anyway, so they cannot claim copyright rights for it. But you cannot use a Tunguska or anything that came after SDF:Macross as being examples that the thing drew inspiration from. You can only cite stuff that came before the original animation was being done. Remember the mechanical designer who created all the original artwork, Shōji Kawamori, also did all the vakyrie designs for EVERY Macross animation series that followed. Mobile Suit Gundam ironically was the most likely inspiration for Macross, and it first broadcast in 1979. The Tunguska wasn't widely known in the west outside military circles until after the breakup of the soviet union and certainly not to some 19 year olds at a Japanese university in 1979.

Hence my first point that they had to prove they owned the rights to the art first. That being said, the Tunguska began design in 1970, and began production in 1976. You don't have to register for copyright, it exists as soon as something is created, nor do you need to be aware that it exists for your work to not be original. Macross is 1982, the fact that the Tunguska (and to an extent every quad cannon AAA dating back to world war 2) pre-dates the design of the Destroid Defender means it can't be original in it's entirety, only in specific details.

[Terrastras Rex]

[I know nothing about lore or the IP ownership history]

But I read up on it.. This thread, the reddit thread, etc.

It seems like HG is just patent trolling, and if the judge does his or her research, things might be okay. The patent is so diluted between so many parties, and HG contributes nothing to furthering robot development.

There's no patent on dragons, how can their be one on fighting robots? .. They're all based on rock-em sock-em.

Even in those comparison pics, they use the same 'source' mech a couple times, even tho the corresponding battletech mechs are different.

The first video game robots I remember were Thexder and Thexder 2. Did HG [or the Japanese rights holder] make a claim on them?

Edited by Terrastras Rex, 27 July 2017 - 03:22 AM.

[Kargush]

Terrastras Rex, on 27 July 2017 - 03:10 AM, said:

It seems like HG is just patent trolling, and if the judge does his or her research, things might be okay.

Or, if HG gets to them first and points out the original deal with FASA, and how it bind anyone who does anything with BT, and we're all up the proverbial creek without a vital instrument.