1809 replies to this topic

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

GrimRiver, on 25 July 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

I thought HG only has the rights to distribute Macross and Robotech but no rights to the design of the mechs themselves?

Besides they've been sitting on those copyrights for many years while doing nothing with it, can that be used against HG for patent/copyright trolling?

They were granted those rights, by someone who didn't have the right to grant them those rights.

[HGAK47]

I dont pretend to fully understand this but to me it seems as if us here, the living community and PGI the only devs serious about continuing the mechwarrior fps experience that the fan base clearly loves (for the most part) are being taken for a ride by people who have no care for any franchise and only care about scraping together some $$$.

Its so sad that this can happen to such a small and niche community.

Edited by HGAK47, 26 July 2017 - 10:04 AM.

[chewie]

The bit that makes me laugh so hard through all this, is the comparison images.

Locust vs Glaug Officer pod.

If anyone has the rights to claim copyright infringement on that sod, it's the people behind Crusher joe, which is where a fair few aerofighter, tanks and the OSTALL (Locust's great grandpappy) comes from.

Atlas vs Armoured Valkyrie
As has been stated, no one in their right mind would agree to those being linked.

Shadowhawk vs Destroid Spartan
Again, complete fantasy. The origins for that mech being the Fang of the sun Dougram creators.



I just hope that the judge is an actual person, who can reason as well as the next man, and rapidly close down HG's blatant attempts at getting "free money" of the back of something that was resolved decades ago.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

The following things really should happen in this case:
The FASA and HG Sealed agreement, needs to be unsealed and made public.

Harmony Gold should be informed of their clear, legal rights over what property they own, and what they do not.

The Judge should be made aware of the Japanese court case in which it was determined that Harmony Gold was given the rights improperly.
Harmony Gold should be stripped of their rights to Macross, as they were given those rights improperly to begin with.

All of this must happen, for there to be any real closure.

[Lightfoot]

Apnu, on 25 July 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

I've seen a lot of posting of the goofy comparisons (like the Locust and the Officer Battle Pod), but what of the others on earlier pages?

Here are the comparisons from pages 10, 11, and 12.







I find it very suspicious they cut off the Phoenix Hawk's arm.

And for review, here are laughable comparisons on pages 13 and 14.





All images were taken from:

https://www.unitedst...242820/1-0.html

See I don't see that much similarity in most of them. You could find that much similarity by comparing any two walking robots with guns. In the way they are portrayed in the game there is no similarity. Battlemechs move like lumbering giants and Macross robots move like martial artists. It's like saying you own the copyrights on all giant green men.

And HG doesn't own the copyrights on Macross. Studio Nue does, according to the courts in Japan in 2015. Studio Nue created Macross in 1981, so they own the copyrights.

The story thus far:

"Harmony Gold purchased the International distribution rights for the Macross series and between 1999 and 2003 filed trademarks on the distribution of Macross merchandise and media outside of Japan. Harmony Gold’s International distribution rights are under dispute however as they bought the rights from the Japanese company, Tatsunoko Productions, which in a court ruling against companies, Studio Nue and Big West, was ruled to have only the Rights to the international distribution of “The Super Dimension Fortress Macross” and no legal claim to the rest of the franchise; those belonging to the latter companies. Harmony Gold claims that the case does not apply to them since it occurred in Japan and does not apply to the international distribution rights. Harmony Gold continues to re-affirm their claim to the international distribution through cease and desist letters, resulting in later Macross series not being distributed outside of Japan."

To the best of my knowledge though, in the United States, the only way to gain copyrights is to create something original or acquire what is called a "Work for Hire" statement from the party who did create the original. If you don't meet either of those criteria you have diddily. Studio Nue created Macross. US copyright law says they own the copyrights then. What HG might own is the packaging of something they distributed, but not Macross.

Oh well.

[Aim64C]

See... I'm a bit less ... 'normal.'

My solutions to this problem involve the terms 'tactically acquire,' 'sell into slave rings,' 'target genetic and/or social legacy.'

Which is why I usually just hold my tongue. My solution to problems is to pretty much eviscerate anything representing opposition with no holds bared. I don't follow laws necessarily because I believe in their efficacy or the society which they are in place to protect (or ensnare...) - I follow them because destroying the entire enforcement structure is usually far more work than it's worth. That, and I like to go to sleep without surrounding myself with claymores and various automatons designed to kill and maim people I have probably served beside.

Because I'd totally nuke a building related to Harmony Gold if I had one and a delivery system in range. Just on principle.

Well... actually, other targets would take priority... so I'd need a bit of a cache before I considered HG worth the investment...

Which is why I'd prefer to develop a directed energy orbital weapon. A much more efficient tool for those of us who trend toward autocracy. An ion cannon is actually possible (well... an electron cannon) - just that the challenge would be to develop the power necessary to self-pinch the beam in the atmosphere... and I'm not exactly sure how the physics would work out as far as electrostatic charges - since electrons (or the lack thereof) would be pumped toward the planet with a difference of charges building up. Would be interesting to see if, instead of field emission, an extreme depletion of electrons within a substance could pull electrons from the proverbial 'zero point.' The antiparticle from that would have to go somewhere... photon lattices have been successful at converting virtual particles from the Casimir Field into real particles by sacrificing energy from the photon to a collision with the antiparticle....

I'm rambling.

Back on topic - more than likely, this case goes nowhere. It's what happens to IP black holes. They believe in this thing called "residual income" and believe that they can obtain an IP and sue anything and everything in order to gain royalties. It's kind of like patent mills in universities (looking at UCLA), but with intellectual property.

Usually, the goal is to try and push a settlement out of court - a small royalty fee or something instead of dropping cash on the legal battle that is less certain than the terms of the settlement.

I say build an actual Warhammer battlemech (or... something kinda close - I have a coupled coil gauss rifle design in mind - multiple munition types to include delivery of HE, chemical, or biological rounds... we're way past the ferro-alluminum designs proposed by the lore... I also have some ideas on a self-injected plasma wakefield particle cannon... but would need a dev team to actually bring that to reality in a timely manner). Then blast the bejeesus out of their corporate office with it.

But we've already established that I don't belong outside of Mad Max... so...

[Dee Eight]

Vortex013, on 25 July 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

The Macross franchise failed to deliver and now they try to steal something from the our community? Acually it feels more like piracy from their side. Whatever goes into this law suit will be actually not invested into MWO... sad.

Failed to deliver ? 30 years of on going stories and series and animation ? I have all the animation works from Macross Plus thru the most recent Macross Delta on dvd (which aired on Japanese TV from last year) and there's another animation series coming out next year.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macross

[Scratx]

Dee Eight, on 26 July 2017 - 02:24 PM, said:

Failed to deliver ? 30 years of on going stories and series and animation ? I have all the animation works from Macross Plus thru the most recent Macross Delta on dvd (which aired on Japanese TV from last year) and there's another animation series coming out next year.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macross

Harmony Gold holds nothing more than the international distribution rights of the original Macross. Not any of the sequels. Nor the characters, mech designs, etc. Plus, Delta, Frontier, etc? Nope, HG has no rights to any of that.

[Metus regem]

Dee Eight, on 26 July 2017 - 02:24 PM, said:

Failed to deliver ? 30 years of on going stories and series and animation ? I have all the animation works from Macross Plus thru the most recent Macross Delta on dvd (which aired on Japanese TV from last year) and there's another animation series coming out next year.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macross

Hopefully the new one will be better than Delta was...

Now don't get me wrong there is nothing inherently bad about Delta, but the story felt too rushed, the ending felt too deus ex machina with the bad guy's top ace switching sides at the last moment... Some characters were left a little two denominational in terms of character growth (Mirage) and it was stuffed full of teen age high-jinks... Aside from the mechs, it didn't feel very macross-y to me.

[Adridos]

Metus regem, on 26 July 2017 - 02:38 PM, said:

Now don't get me wrong there is nothing inherently bad about Delta, but the story felt too rushed, the ending felt too deus ex machina with the bad guy's top ace switching sides at the last moment... Some characters were left a little two denominational in terms of character growth (Mirage) and it was stuffed full of teen age high-jinks... Aside from the mechs, it didn't feel very macross-y to me.

The show took a pretty bad dive with the second cour for some reason.
The first half was better than Frontier, imho. Too bad we're seemingly not getting a movie to redo the bad parts like with Frontier which ended in something that easily beats DYRL on all accounts but animation budget.

About the only non-Macrossy thing I could think of was the slightly more Gundam-y story with the nations going at it and that was practically the intent of the show and what sets it apart. The bits with Windermereans characters were about as underdeveloped as the intents of the Galaxy colony back in the Frontier show and the movies changed that for the better there.

[C E Dwyer]

Well needless to say, I won't be purchasing anything that will lead to profits for H.G.

Shame really, if they cut a deal they would benefit from it.

If they think people will abandon this game or HBS's new one and suddenly have a desire to buy their products, they failed utterly.

I'll be asking at conventions from now on, are Harmony Gold receiving any royalities on this, if the answer is yes, I'll walk away.

[Y E O N N E]

Cathy, on 26 July 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

I'll be asking at conventions from now on, are Harmony Gold receiving any royalities on this, if the answer is yes, I'll walk away.

If enough people do this, BT dies and HG still wins.

Food for thought.

[Squigles]

From what I understand, HG actually has a pretty flimsy case, against everyone.

Before anything can go anywhere at all, HG actually has to prove it owns the rights to the art in question. From what I understand, the claim is somewhat dubious.

Now, even IF that succeeds, they don't go to trial yet. They first have to determine what content is actually under copyright. I notice a lot of people discussing if something looks similar or not to HG's claimed artwork. That's not even the question you should be asking. It's what part of that claimed artwork can actually BE copyrighted. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that something has to be original to be copyrighted.

So, take the rifleman for example. The upper body is basically a Tunguska (not original). The lower portion are simply legs (not original). Now, maybe they try and argue that putting legs on it makes it original. However, this would in effect declare that all bipedal weapons systems are the original creation of Harmony Gold (LOL) and render pretty much every bit of mecha in existence infringing.

When we get to matters like this, it's the details that tend to be able to be protected. So maybe the cockpit canopy has some very detailed and unique layout, that could potentially be protected by copyright. Maybe the radar dish is unique in some way, that could come under copyright protection. However, in that case, you wouldn't compare the two pieces of art side by side, instead you'd compare the PROTECTED portion side by side. So the two radar dishes. Are they the same or easily mistaken for each other? No? Move along.

This is the same reason that there are TONS of vehicles on the road that can be mistaken for each other if you're not a car enthusiast. Only elements that ARE original and non-trivial can be protected, and if someone else didn't lift that protected element wholesale, then you have no case, regardless of how similar the vehicles are.

This is pretty much how the courts see it, from my understanding. As a reference, some conclusions of law from a prior BT court case, FASA v Playmates.

9. FASA urges this Court to define the scope of its copyright rights by making a side-by-side comparison with Playmates' EXO-SQUAD Toys. This type of simplistic comparison is improper. As this Court's esteemed colleague, Judge Shadur, has precisely determined:
"It is true, of course, that the suggested type of side-by-side comparison is really not the right one to make. Rather, the trick is to begin with the allegedly aggrieved work in one hand and nothing in the other hand and ask Is it copyrightable? And if so, in what respects? To what extent? Those limiting questions define whether a comparison need to be made at all and, if so, also defines the universe for such a comparison."

11. The only aspects of FASA's MECH figures that are entitled to copyright protection are the non-trivial, original features, if any, contributed by the authors as creators of these works.

18. Much of the total look of BATTLETECH draws heavily from preexisting material that is common in the "mecha" genre and in the public domain. To a certain degree, each new enclosed robotic design will always look like prior existing robotic designs. Thus, the Court specifically finds that the protectible aspects of FASA's copyright are "weak" because a significant part of its total look and the subject matter converge.

Simply slap in Harmony Gold in place of FASA and Robotech in place of Battletech and you quickly see the uphill battle they have ahead of them.

My opinion is that HG is either looking for a settlement to get a bit of dosh to make this go away right now, or they're looking to win by outspending everyone. I can't imagine them winning on the merits.

P.S. Just to reinforce the statement from earlier, I am not a lawyer.

Edited by Squigles, 26 July 2017 - 04:24 PM.

[Tombstoner]

Squigles, on 26 July 2017 - 04:07 PM, said:

P.S. Just to reinforce the statement from earlier, I am not a lawyer.

I am also not a lawyer, but i know one of the criteria for judging copy right infringement is, can you tell the difference between the original and the copy in such a way that it avoids confusion for the laymen, not someone acquainted with the IP. Sadly i think HG's clam will stand especially for the Rifleman/marauder. If i was PGI i would have used the artwork from the original BT source book to derive from simply because they look so much better.

http://www.sarna.net...hoenix_Hawk_IIC
http://www.sarna.net...i/Warhammer_IIC
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Marauder_IIC

The others are also on sarna. Unfortunately i think HG's claim is valid.

[Squigles]

Tombstoner, on 26 July 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

I am also not a lawyer, but i know one of the criteria for judging copy right infringement is, can you tell the difference between the original and the copy in such a way that it avoids confusion for the laymen, not someone acquainted with the IP. Sadly i think HG's clam will stand especially for the Rifleman/marauder. If i was PGI i would have used the artwork from the original BT source book to derive from simply because they look so much better.

http://www.sarna.net...hoenix_Hawk_IIC
http://www.sarna.net...i/Warhammer_IIC
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Marauder_IIC

The others are also on sarna. Unfortunately i think HG's claim is valid.

Yes, this is entirely correct. However, the part you're missing is that the entire work is not protected by copyright. The vast majority of HG's claimed artwork is not protected by copyright. Just as the vast majority of FASA's original artwork (madcat etc. in the aforementioned case) was not protected by copyright. So, again, you're not asking "Can the layman tell the difference between these two pieces of artwork (mechs)". It's asking "Can the layman tell the difference between the original, non-trivial features, if any, of the supposedly infringed artwork and infringing artwork."

That's the part everyone is missing, it doesn't matter if Joe Blow can tell the difference between a Glaug Officers Pod and a Marauder if no part of the Glaug Officers Pod is protected by copyright because there's no part of it that's original and non-trivial.

As the judge pointed out, you don't start with a picture of one in each hand, you start with the alleged infringed artwork, alone, and determine what part of it is actually protected. Then you know if you ever need to compare them at all, and if you do, what portion of them are you actually comparing.

Edited by Squigles, 26 July 2017 - 05:03 PM.

[Aim64C]

Tombstoner, on 26 July 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

I am also not a lawyer, but i know one of the criteria for judging copy right infringement is, can you tell the difference between the original and the copy in such a way that it avoids confusion for the laymen, not someone acquainted with the IP. Sadly i think HG's clam will stand especially for the Rifleman/marauder. If i was PGI i would have used the artwork from the original BT source book to derive from simply because they look so much better.

http://www.sarna.net...hoenix_Hawk_IIC
http://www.sarna.net...i/Warhammer_IIC
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Marauder_IIC

The others are also on sarna. Unfortunately i think HG's claim is valid.

This probably depends more on the judiciary circuit.

The 9th federal circuit in the U.S., for example, tends to rule based on emotions rather than what laws actually state. Hence why a lot of frivolous cases are filed there (and why that circuit is so bogged down).

That said, the above critique is correct - what is able to be copywrited? A 2 liter of coke looks similar to a 2 liter of pepsi insofar as they are both cylinders with a label applied. While I suspect specific features of the cocacola bottles is copywrited, they have specifically designed their bottle to look in a way such that it can be copywrited. They probably copywrote the indentation made between the outer dimension of the bottle and the dimension where the label is applied, as well as the curve from the neck to the label, and from the label to the base.

They made specific metrics which can be used to form the basis of a copywrite so that a distributor couldn't simply do a die modification (where coke paid for the tool up in the contract) and distribute for a competitor. They copywrote the cap design, I would imagine (it has triangular grips as opposed to simple flash-flanges), as well as the specific colors used to protect the image on the shelf - so that if someone tried to make a brand look like Coke on the shelf, it would give them some grounds for a copywrite case.

It may or may not stand in court - but they did things specifically to create a copywrite claim.

A classic case is the Intel 486. American Micro Devices (AMD) was originally a silicon die fab and contracted with Intel to produce the 8486 16/32 bit processor. AMD made some revisions to the design to allow for better per-clock performance and released the design as the AMD 486 to use the same socket.

This, obviously, did not go over well with Intel, who filed a copywrite/patent infringement claim. The courts ruled that you can't copywrite a number. Thus, the Intel 586 became known as the Pentium - a name that they could copywrite and they created a specific pin arrangement that was then patented. AMD then launched the Athlon and Duron series under their own socket designs... and there you have it.

[Ripper X]

What I find interesting is that Harmony Gold used the concept art instead of the in game models. Looks like HM is just looking for a pay day

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Im follow Squigles
the old BT unseens to near by Robotech ,to samll differents (cockpit from between the sholders to the Torso by Archer and Rifleman -new Cocpit for Marauder) teh redesigns a other Aspect
by a Mercedes car ...the Car is looking like million other Cars, is the logo from Mercedes thats make the copyright , not lights ,Wheels or Cockpit..by Transformers not the Robotslook copyright (looks similar 1000 other Robots )its the Transformer Logos thats carry this Transformers and the Hasbro logo and fall in Copyright, thats Logo unique ..by a H&K Gun ,its the Logo the copyright ,not the look similar other modern Guns, not the Look of the Barrel,Magazine,or Handgrip or Trigger.
By technical designs the function bring the form and is trivial...you can make a car with a unique cracy Cockpit to the backside , or hexagonal Wheels, looks unique and is not functional.
you build a Robot after a T.rex its looks similar to 1000 other robots build similar to a T.rex, or a Bird, or a Human.

Rifleman Defender ...two legs (functional for a walking mech), two Weapon Arms (pylons or arms with weapons functional for a Battlemachine) , a radar dish of the Top (functional for a Warmachine and AA function), and a Cockpit in the Middle of the Torso or Shoulders (its a Functional place for a Cockpit )

by the Way im seeing in other tread for Rifleman IIC ..the orginal defender/Rifleman radar is a
Garret T11-A antenna from the tody Navy

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 26 July 2017 - 06:52 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Ripper X, on 26 July 2017 - 05:34 PM, said:

What I find interesting is that Harmony Gold used the concept art instead of the in game models. Looks like HM is just looking for a pay day

They also squished them.

[darqsyde]

I suspect the suing of HBS is more to drag PGI into an American court, as opposed to a Canadian court. IIRC, a Canadian court is more likely to look favourably at the Japanese ownership ruling, thereby likely putting HGs claims in serious jeopardy. However, I'm not even remotely close to a lawyer and my reading of the situation could be horribly off-base.

It is also my opinion that HG is seriously stretching with the examples they have selected in the argument against HBS. I mean, PGI, HBS & CGL can easily show the development and evolution of the Atlas, Locust and Shadowhawk, and how they are not even close to the various Robotech images.

This has likely all come bubbling to the surface again due to Sony's resurgent interest in getting a Robotech movie off the ground. IMO, Sony would be better served getting the Live-action Macross rights, and circumventing HG that way.

Edited by darqsyde, 26 July 2017 - 06:49 PM.