1809 replies to this topic

[Requiemking]

Anjian, on 29 July 2017 - 08:37 PM, said:

The fact that they included the Locust and the Atlas also makes it a look and feel lawsuit, and Japanese media companies looking to distribute their anime and mecha related merchandise is going to take a hard look at this one. That's going to attract the ire of companies like Bandai, Studio Sunrise and Kadokawa. Japanese mecha as you may have noticed, tend to copy themselves across the board so there is similarities lets say, a Gundam to the Valkryie, or for that matter, a lot of Shoji Kawamori's designs are similar, whether its the original Transformers to Armored Core.

Not to mention it'll also probably attract the ire of Studio Nue and Revell, as it is their copyrights being abused here(NOTE: Revell is the company had holds the rights to the international distribution of the Macross mechs themselves. If anyone would have a problem here, it would be them. But since they have shown zero interest in Battletech over the years, I would assume that they are ok with the Unseen being shown).

[Adridos]

Andi Nagasia, on 29 July 2017 - 11:44 AM, said:

when it came out that Harmony Gold got the Rights for (Southern Cross) and (MOSPEADA) illegally,
HG then Claimed that they still own (Southern Cross) and (MOSPEADA) because they are apart of RoboTech,
this didnt hold water and so Japan Courts said HG has no Rights to (Southern Cross) and (MOSPEADA)

HG of course says they dont care what the Courts say as it wasnt an international Court,
althought due to they having bought the rights illegally they dont have the rights, but are glossing over the Ruling,

as of now Harmony Gold only owns the International rights toys and Characters of (Super Dimension Fortress Macross)
Studio Nue owns (Southern Cross) and (MOSPEADA), fully and no rights to these belong to Harmony Gold,

You have it mixed up.

HG bought all three international distribution rights from Tatsunoko.

Tatsunoko co-funded the development of Macross (and received the international show distribution rights as their part of the deal) and produced both SDF Southern Cross and MOSPEADA.
This is the reason Robotech used MOSPEADA instead of SDF Orguss, for which Big West asked funding from Toyota (or some other big company, irrelevant details).

However, Macross ended up exploding and Tatsunoko started being a problem. So, Big West and Studio Nue entered a case against them and ended up winning, the court deciding that they only ever got the right to the international distribution of the original series and nothing else, where Tatsunoko claimed co-ownership of the IP they had actually sold for the distribution rights.
Back in the states, Harmony Gold did all sorts of fancy illegal things with the license (toys, models, games, designs...) claiming Tatsunoko had their backs. Once it turned out Tatsunoko themselves were overstepping their boundaries, HG decided to claim absolute obliviousness to international courts and waved it off, willing to fight anyone who'd acquire the license legally.

The details of their license for Southern Cross and MOSPEADA are unknown to me, but as it would seem, none of the parties involved really care about those. They own the exclusive rights to internationally distribute the original anime and that's where it ends. Any characters, designs and other productions from the Macross franchise are off-limits to them. They themselves are committing fraud through efforts like the miniature game Kickstarter a few years back since the figure in there are as illegal as unseen have always been.

[Alan Davion]

Adridos, on 30 July 2017 - 08:23 AM, said:

You have it mixed up.

HG bought all three international distribution rights from Tatsunoko.

Tatsunoko co-funded the development of Macross (and received the international show distribution rights as their part of the deal) and produced both SDF Southern Cross and MOSPEADA.
This is the reason Robotech used MOSPEADA instead of SDF Orguss, for which Big West asked funding from Toyota (or some other big company, irrelevant details).

However, Macross ended up exploding and Tatsunoko started being a problem. So, Big West and Studio Nue entered a case against them and ended up winning, the court deciding that they only ever got the right to the international distribution of the original series and nothing else, where Tatsunoko claimed co-ownership of the IP they had actually sold for the distribution rights.
Back in the states, Harmony Gold did all sorts of fancy illegal things with the license (toys, models, games, designs...) claiming Tatsunoko had their backs. Once it turned out Tatsunoko themselves were overstepping their boundaries, HG decided to claim absolute obliviousness to international courts and waved it off, willing to fight anyone who'd acquire the license legally.

The details of their license for Southern Cross and MOSPEADA are unknown to me, but as it would seem, none of the parties involved really care about those. They own the exclusive rights to internationally distribute the original anime and that's where it ends. Any characters, designs and other productions from the Macross franchise are off-limits to them. They themselves are committing fraud through efforts like the miniature game Kickstarter a few years back since the figure in there are as illegal as unseen have always been.

That's the thing though. It wasn't an international court, it was only the Japanese courts where the ruling between Big West, Studio Nue and Tatsunoko was decided, and HG, an American company, doesn't see the need to hold themselves to a ruling from another country. If it really WAS an international court ruling, then HG would have folded long, LONG ago.

What needs to happen is Big West, Studio Nue, and whatever other Japanese companies else might apply in this instance, need to come over here to the US, and take HG to task for its crimes.

Until that actually happens, HG can, has and will, get away with, for all intents and purposes, murdering the Macross franchise for the foreseeable future.

[C4NC3R]

Mystere, on 29 July 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

You've heard of patent trolls, right?

No I have... I just think overally about that "question". Btw, since FASA died PGI have nothing to afraid of.

[Alan Davion]

C4NC3R, on 30 July 2017 - 08:58 AM, said:

No I have... I just think overally about that "question". Btw, since FASA died PGI have nothing to afraid of.

If you think that, then there's something seriously wrong. Harmony Gold has had a rage stiffy over Battletech since it started in 1984, and they managed to win pretty big the last time over the Macross derived mechs, and even some of the mechs that had absolutely nothing to do with Macross.

They haven't had reason to come after Battletech since then until CGL and PGI started bringing back the "Unseen" mechs as the new "Classics", and now HBS just because it's Jordan Weisman's company, just like with FASA, the only reason they didn't until know was because they got their teeth kicked in by Hasbro a few years back. They probably had to build up a little rainy day fund in order to go after the Battletech franchise again.

CGL, PGI and HBS have a LOT to fear here, because if they somehow lose, that means the removal, AGAIN, of a lot of mechs we Battletech nerds hold near and dear from the game. CGL, PGI and HBS have quite literally everything to lose or gain depending on the outcome of this brouhaha, where as HG have literally nothing to lose no matter how things turn out.

HBS appear to be firing back at HG something fierce from what I've read in these documents, going after the fact that HG actually has no legitimate claim to the Macross franchise, and more specifically, the artwork which they're claiming they own in this lawsuit.

So they NEED to fight this battle, and they need to win in order to get HG to stop constantly breathing down their necks over this issue.

Edited by Alan Davion, 30 July 2017 - 06:00 PM.

[JC Daxion]

Ummm what about Shogun warriors? they were far earlier than any of the stuff you guys are talking about, and have a new toyline too.

https://en.wikipedia..._Warriors_(toys)


Or did they buy them too? because it says something about toynami being part of it now, and they make robotech toys, but shogun was long before robotech.


Speaking of which.. I need to buy a few of those old Die cast figures.. they are really really sweet.

http://www.ebay.com/...S-/162609740611

I owned the third one over.. But i don't think i have it anymore, unless its hidden in a box in the old attic.. Figures, one of the toys i owned is actually worth something i can't find it lol

Edited by JC Daxion, 30 July 2017 - 06:12 PM.

[Rubberanvil]

Problem with doing a settlement is HG will do the same thing all over again at a later point.

[Y E O N N E]

Rubberanvil, on 30 July 2017 - 06:26 PM, said:

Problem with doing a settlement is HG will do the same thing all over again at a later point.

It also allows them to maintain rights which they may not actually deserve.

[Anjian]

Requiemking, on 30 July 2017 - 12:11 AM, said:

Not to mention it'll also probably attract the ire of Studio Nue and Revell, as it is their copyrights being abused here(NOTE: Revell is the company had holds the rights to the international distribution of the Macross mechs themselves. If anyone would have a problem here, it would be them. But since they have shown zero interest in Battletech over the years, I would assume that they are ok with the Unseen being shown).

Letting HG win gives HG precedent to go after Hasbro (Transformers) and Bandai (Gundam). So both companies should be watching this, and make their effort to squash the bug before it grows.

[Brain Cancer]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 July 2017 - 12:11 PM, said:

And on what leg are they going to stand, this time? The 'Mechs have been redesigned. They don't look at all like their original versions, except maybe the Rifleman but that's a stretch.

They don't really need to. They just want to sue in the hopes that they'll get a settlement and/or throw everything into a crashing halt, thereby costing PGI/Catalyst so much dosh that they'll settle even if in the wrong.

It's free money as far as HG is concerned, though I wouldn't cry any tears if the entire company was mysteriously burned to the ground with it's ownership tragically stuck inside with their business suits, duct taped to a pile of legal filings.

[Zordicron]

This was well thought out by HG.

There are 3 ways this can go-
Settlement out of court. Basically, things would continue as always, with everyone involved in Battletech walking on broken glass wondering if HG will threaten some BS lawsuit against artwork again. It wold allow for things in MWO and HBS games to continue for now, but keep a firm deterent on the franchise assuring stifled investments and overall suffocating any potential growth.

Goes to court, HG wins. Pretty much a death toll for Battletech in it's current form, likely push it back into the post MW4 years where only a tiny core of people hold on for dear life to the fading franchise. Opens the door for HG to lawyer up against whatever other frivolous things they think they can target for some $$, depending on how rulings go.

Goes to court, HG loses badly. Best thing that could happen to Battletech in forever. With threat of lawsuits off the table, doors open for investment in every direction.

IMO, the worst thing PGI and friends could do is settle. While I am sure I am not the only one worried expensive lawsuits could put a premature end to the current crop of Mechwarrior type video games, IMO I would rather see this taken into court and settled once and for all. I would rather not have any more mechwarrior games with "unseens" in them then have the franchise get a pillow held over it's face any more. It is too strong a deturrent to investment, and therefore stifles any real AAA game design goals due to lack of $.

This needs to go to court, Microsoft should be involved with some support here because as holders of the videogame stuff, they stand to lose a lot of potential profits from their holdings if HG somehow manages to renew their shadowy grasp on the IP. The Japanese firms should support in this, because anything they can do to weaken HG's position will benefit them as well. Basically I hope the others not directly called out in this case can see the big picture and get involved to put an end to this nonsense once and for all.

[Ryllen Kriel]

What irks me the most about Harmony Gold is that they aren't responsible for any of the creativity of the Macross series, or any other series behind the mechs in question. They handle distribution rights in a portion of the world, that's it. They created nothing, yet they cling to things they didn't create. What a bunch of tools. I don't believe in the supernatural but poetically speaking there is a special place in hell for Harmony Gold, I hope this law suit buries them, their pets and their first of kin.

[ScrapIron Prime]

W E N D I G O, on 01 August 2017 - 12:28 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...is-at-it-again/
Just look at the MWO pics, clearly copied and thus stolen intellectual property.

And we'll say it again slowly for the kids in the back... in copyright law, it's not stealing if the other person never owned it in the first place. That's the counter argument, Harmony Gold does not own these images nor the rights to them.

[Alan Davion]

W E N D I G O, on 01 August 2017 - 12:28 AM, said:

Well, on the other hand who's so stupid to copy and steal designs and hopes to get away with it? Right, and those guys aren't even chinese... And who's so stupid to reuse them time and time again after already losing precedents? Right, and they were at it again... They actually had it a long time coming and now they reap what they sow. Knowing PGI and their shady business practices I take any bet they did NOT clear and settle things up before releasing the unseen. Greedy little...

http://www.sarna.net...is-at-it-again/
Just look at the MWO pics, clearly copied and thus stolen intellectual property.

So bad that other people you do not agree with or like also have rights, yes? Double standards it's called. HG wouldn't have any chance of getting through with this if they would not deserve it. The complains with the Battletech game of HBS and the pics from the lawsuit are done for two reasons: first to show they do not ignore them and second, while knowing this won't get approved they'll just come back later when HBS earned some cash with their crowdfunded game - just by using the then-precedent of MWO designs (which most certainly will get approved by court, let's be honest to ourselves) because they use the same.

Brilliant.

No offense, but the problem has and always will lie squarely with Harmony Gold and the friggin' REDWOOD TREE they have stuck up their collective buttholes.

PGI's problems notwithstanding, did try on numerous occasions to get HG's approval on redesigns for the then Unseen/now Classic mechs, and each and every time HG responded with a flippant "Yeah, how about no~!".

The Unseen, now Classic mechs, formed for many people, the core of the Battletech universe that they grew up with and have continued to play even despite the continued legal brouhaha that HG tries every now and then.

Because of HGs obscene and continued levels of sheer, maddening obstinance, PGI, and CGL not long after, said in no short order, "F*** YOU HG~!" and went ahead with the new Classic mechs.

We all knew this day would come, and PGI and CGL seem to have prepared for it, as did HBS and Jordan himself given some of the responses in the court documents if you'd bothered to read them. One of HBS' responses quite literally goes after HG's jugular, the fact that HG doesn't own these images they have so zealously claimed they do own.

PGI itself has apparently gone so far as to call for a full on TRIAL BY JURY~! Something no one has ever done to HG since their first attacks on Battletech back in the late 80s/early 90s. Every lawsuit HG has tried since then has been settled out of court, for good or ill in HGs case.

This is, for all intents and purposes, A TRIAL OF REFUSAL by PGI, HBS and CGL on HG's claims, and by GOD is it a long time coming.

This needs to happen and PGI, HBS and CGL need to kick HG beyond the Periphery once and for all.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Alan Davion, on 01 August 2017 - 05:48 AM, said:

No offense, but the problem has and always will lie squarely with Harmony Gold and the friggin' REDWOOD TREE they have stuck up their collective buttholes.

PGI's problems notwithstanding, did try on numerous occasions to get HG's approval on redesigns for the then Unseen/now Classic mechs, and each and every time HG responded with a flippant "Yeah, how about no~!".

The Unseen, now Classic mechs, formed for many people, the core of the Battletech universe that they grew up with and have continued to play even despite the continued legal brouhaha that HG tries every now and then.

Because of HGs obscene and continued levels of sheer, maddening obstinance, PGI, and CGL not long after, said in no short order, "F*** YOU HG~!" and went ahead with the new Classic mechs.

We all knew this day would come, and PGI and CGL seem to have prepared for it, as did HBS and Jordan himself given some of the responses in the court documents if you'd bothered to read them. One of HBS' responses quite literally goes after HG's jugular, the fact that HG doesn't own these images they have so zealously claimed they do own.

PGI itself has apparently gone so far as to call for a full on TRIAL BY JURY~! Something no one has ever done to HG since their first attacks on Battletech back in the late 80s/early 90s. Every lawsuit HG has tried since then has been settled out of court, for good or ill in HGs case.

This is, for all intents and purposes, A TRIAL OF REFUSAL by PGI, HBS and CGL on HG's claims, and by GOD is it a long time coming.

This needs to happen and PGI, HBS and CGL need to kick HG beyond the Periphery once and for all.

Paul; HARMONY GOLD, YOU DARE REFUSE MY BATCHALL!

[Alan Davion]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 01 August 2017 - 06:14 AM, said:

Paul; HARMONY GOLD, YOU DARE REFUSE MY BATCHALL!

I think Mitch Gitelman would be better for that, but maybe that's just me.

[Lily from animove]

if they only have NA rights, and IF it should fail,. all the NA players would be blocked from buying the mechs while happy little EU's, South americans and asians still run around with them.

Im,agine that in the MWO store: "This mech is not available in your reagion" xD werd dam weird

Edited by Lily from animove, 01 August 2017 - 06:48 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

W E N D I G O, on 01 August 2017 - 07:29 AM, said:

I bet you breath through your mouth.

It's spelled "breathe."

[Lightfoot]

W E N D I G O, on 01 August 2017 - 12:28 AM, said:

Well, on the other hand who's so stupid to copy and steal designs and hopes to get away with it? Right, and those guys aren't even chinese... And who's so stupid to reuse them time and time again after already losing precedents? Right, and they were at it again... They actually had it a long time coming and now they reap what they sow. Knowing PGI and their shady business practices I take any bet they did NOT clear and settle things up before releasing the unseen. Greedy little...

http://www.sarna.net...is-at-it-again/
Just look at the MWO pics, clearly copied and thus stolen intellectual property.

So bad that other people you do not agree with or like also have rights, yes? Double standards it's called. HG wouldn't have any chance of getting through with this if they would not deserve it. The complains with the Battletech game of HBS and the pics from the lawsuit are done for two reasons: first to show they do not ignore them and second, while knowing this won't get approved they'll just come back later when HBS earned some cash with their crowdfunded game - just by using the then-precedent of MWO designs (which most certainly will get approved by court, let's be honest to ourselves) because they use the same.

Brilliant.

I don't see that much similarity in most of those robots, they are certainly not identical. The Destroids all have huge feet as a characteristic, Mechs don't. The Mechs are purposely distorted in that legal brief, to look narrower, to appear more like the Destroids. Mechs are wider. Some of them are inspired by the Unseens and that was the intent, but are not copies. There are modeling differences in all of them. Enough that a lot of players complained, this is not an actual Warhawk or Marauder.

What is really being decided is are all mechs copies of a mere handful of original mechs or does changing the design create a new mech concept? I say it's the latter. Elements used to create original concepts are not copyrightable. Like the color green or the missile launcher or the giant robot or the alphabet.

What's funny is that HG can't own the copyrights since they did not create the material in question, but they are the only ones who feel infringed upon. HG's only involvement with Macross is that they purchased distribution rights from Tatsunoko corporation, who only had the rights to sell distribution rights outside Japan. They do not hold the right to create original content or the original content.

"Legal complications with international distribution

Harmony Gold purchase the International distribution rights for the Macross series and between 1999 and 2003 filed trademarks on the distribution of Macross merchandise and media outside of Japan. Harmony Gold’s International distribution rights are under dispute however as they bought the rights from the Japanese company, Tatsunoko Productions, which in a court ruling against companies, Studio Nue and Big West, was ruled to have only the Rights to the international distribution of “The Super Dimension Fortress Macross” and no legal claim to the rest of the franchise; those belonging to the latter companies. Harmony Gold claims that the case does not apply to them since it occurred in Japan and does not apply to the international distribution rights. Harmony Gold continues to re-affirm their claim to the international distribution through cease and desist letters, resulting in later Macross series not being distributed outside of Japan."

So HG doesn't create anything, they own distribution rights that are disputed by the actual Macross creators, Studio Nue. HG is actually blocking distribution of new Macross content from the actual creators through their questionable actions.

So, we shall see.

Edited by Lightfoot, 01 August 2017 - 10:50 AM.

[jss78]

Zordicron, on 30 July 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

There are 3 ways this can go-
Settlement out of court. Basically, things would continue as always, with everyone involved in Battletech walking on broken glass wondering if HG will threaten some BS lawsuit against artwork again. It wold allow for things in MWO and HBS games to continue for now, but keep a firm deterent on the franchise assuring stifled investments and overall suffocating any potential growth.

Goes to court, HG wins. Pretty much a death toll for Battletech in it's current form, likely push it back into the post MW4 years where only a tiny core of people hold on for dear life to the fading franchise. Opens the door for HG to lawyer up against whatever other frivolous things they think they can target for some $$, depending on how rulings go.

Goes to court, HG loses badly. Best thing that could happen to Battletech in forever. With threat of lawsuits off the table, doors open for investment in every direction.

If PGI does take it to court, and wins, I'd be so goddamned grateful to them I have no words. They could sell a gold Vindicator for $500 and I'd buy it.