1809 replies to this topic

[naterist]

Adridos, on 13 April 2018 - 01:37 AM, said:

HBS was in this position from the beginning and they could not take that route. Logically the same holds for PGI. Likewise, they have purposefully not included any mention, picture or even a notion of the Macross unseen being in MW5. The reason is obvious.

after 4 or so more months of nonsensical responses from hg, maybe the judge'll have a change of heart.

[Horseman]

N0MAD, on 13 April 2018 - 01:02 AM, said:

So HBS has settled, thought they would, them leaving the unseen out of their game was indication that they were not confident of a positive result in this dispute,

Have you bothered to read HG's complaint against HBS? Because if you did, you'd see HG's case against them was borderline frivolous.

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besides Weisman or what ever his name is has lost against these guys before in a similar dispute.

Extremely dissimilar. The one you are referring to had been over rights to Japanese artwork (which were claimed by both), this one was over HG's claim that certain mechs were infringing (when they were quite dissimilar in reality), cf pages 16-17 of Second Amended Complaint

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IMO, PGI will lose this,

There are criteria as to which aspects of a design can be protected by copyright (what is known as protectible trade dress) and therefore form basis for copyright infringement, and general similarity does not cut it.

Legal precedent indicates they've got more than a fair chance of winning - the lawsuit FASA filed against Playmates over the Heavy Attack E-Frame is analogous to HG's claim against PGI.



How that that go?
Well... the seemingly "infringing" design was ruled legal
Skipping the exact list of differences (found in the linked document), it culminates in:

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Numerous key design differences outweigh any general similarities in the designs of the Mad Cat and the Heavy Attack E-Frame and indicate that one was not copied from the other. The protectible aspects of the Mad Cat and Heavy Attack E-Frame designs are substantially dissimilar.
FASA has not shown by a preponderance of the evidence that any similarities between the Heavy Attack E-Frame prototypes and the Mad Cat design are not attributable to the many commonalities inhering in the pre-existing similar robots that are available to designers.

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the unseen will be removed, i will want my money back ($ refund) i will not settle for other mechs or credit from PGI.

You're dramatizing. If PGI lost, they would simply replace the models

Edited by Horseman, 13 April 2018 - 02:55 AM.

[N0MAD]

Horseman, on 13 April 2018 - 02:46 AM, said:

Have you bothered to read HG's complaint against HBS? Because if you did, you'd see HG's case against them was borderline frivolous.


You're dramatizing. If PGI lost, they would simply replace the models

And yet HBS has settled rather than take it to court, you dont settle if you think you have a chance to win, why would you?
I bought what they showed me and only what they showed me, no where did they state that they may change that mech for another otherwise i would not of bought them. Show me where it says that if you buy X mech pack it may be substituted for a different pack, it doesnt.

[Trystan Thorne]

I think the reason HBS settled is simply that while they had a good chance to win this case, they simply didn't want to risk losing it and than having to remove the Atlas, Locust and Shadowhawk as well.
And the use of the Warhammer and Marauder might still work if PGI wins.

I know, not having the Macross designs hurts a bit, but so many of my friends like me don't care much about them as a majority of the Unseen is Redeem luckily.
If BT succeeds, they might jump to 3050 with an add-on and use many of the great PGI designs HG can't complain about.

[Fubl]

Hbs might have gotten out of the case due to being a licensee vs the creator of the artwork Its a slippery slope

[slide]

N0MAD, on 13 April 2018 - 03:00 AM, said:

Show me where it says that if you buy X mech pack it may be substituted for a different pack, it doesnt.

Pretty sure that would be covered by the general ToS. There will be some line in there that says something like

"PGI reserve the right to remove, replace or modify all assets at any time for any reason"

I don't need to read the ToS to know something like that will be in there. Doesn't matter who it is, when using any kind of software simply clicking agree gives the company the right to do anything they want, including bending you over and sticking it where the sun don't shine. Standard industry practice. The only way to avoid is to not use the software.

The best you can hope for should the worst happen is a reasonable replacement of the in game models or a substitution of equal value or better value.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Trystan Thorne, on 12 April 2018 - 05:10 PM, said:

Also if Battletech succeeds, then a Clan addon/sequel is still highly likely (which I would also get, even though I was never the biggest fan of the Clans).

I'd like to note, that I've already preordered my game, hell I kickstarted that ****.

BUT, I'd also like to add that I, like several others, are tired of the 3050 era... I don't care of battletech get's a clan expansion... I want all my iconic 3025 mechs! I'm tired of constantly getting shafted because some company keeps kicking the little guy because they've got money. I'm tired of not getting to main my favorite mech of the Warhammer!

when the unseen made their way into Mechwarrior Online, I rejoiced! and when I saw we were getting the Holy ones from Macross, the squee was audible! I snagged every, single, one. Why? Because those mechs are super important to me. Not because I grew up with them, but because they represent what battletech is to me. Old machines of destruction lumbering around that had been around for hundreds of years already, falling apart, narry a bolt left of the original chassis over the years...

I hopped into this Franchise with Mechwarrior 2, I've experienced everything the clans and the new tech has to offer, and I'm over it, I've been over it since mechwarrior 4, and I'm just ready to return to some purity... I'm ready to get rid of all the overly-complex tech that happened just because power creep.

Hell, I have a box set of Battletech from the 1st "Battletech" printing, did you know, that it wasn't until the first additional source books came out, that we had auto cannons beyond AC5? The original game, ONLY had AC5 class auto cannons... and they were just called "auto cannon." How about that ****? Can you imagine?

But I'm tired of all the ER tech, all the clan tech, the double heatsinks, ect.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Zergling, on 12 April 2018 - 10:25 PM, said:

Also, were the Battlemaster, Griffin, Shadow Hawk and Wolverine named in this latest lawsuit? If they have to be pulled too, that's a LOOOOOOOOOT of mechs for PGI to remodel.

no, because those are under Fang of the Sun Dogrum, and Crusher Joe, HG has absolutely 0 claim to them at all. even less than the claim they think they have on the macross unseen.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

N0MAD, on 13 April 2018 - 03:00 AM, said:

And yet HBS has settled rather than take it to court, you dont settle if you think you have a chance to win, why would you?
I bought what they showed me and only what they showed me, no where did they state that they may change that mech for another otherwise i would not of bought them. Show me where it says that if you buy X mech pack it may be substituted for a different pack, it doesnt.

Actually we do not know that HBS "settled" we know that they were "Dismissed with Prejudice" Which could mean that HG realised they had no actual standing on having them involved in the lawsuit and just let them go, seeing as how they were not utilizing any of the "alleged infringing": designs in the the first place.

You, are a loony.

[Horseman]

N0MAD, on 13 April 2018 - 03:00 AM, said:

And yet HBS has settled rather than take it to court, you dont settle if you think you have a chance to win, why would you?

You do if the projected legal costs would bankrupt your company. That's the main reason FASA settled back in the 90s.

Perhaps instead of assumptions let's wait for some official information on the matter?

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I bought what they showed me and only what they showed me, no where did they state that they may change that mech for another otherwise i would not of bought them.

I'm not talking about a different mech pack, but about replacing the in-game model with a functionally equivalent one. Or, to put it simply, you keep the mech, it just looks a little different than it used to.

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Show me where it says that if you buy X mech pack it may be substituted for a different pack, it doesnt.

It does, right in the terms of service.
https://mwomercs.com/terms

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2. Content. We may, from time to time at our sole discretion and without notice or liability, create, amend, change, or delete any content from the PGI Offerings.

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1. Termination by Us. We may, in our sole discretion, suspend, restrict or terminate your use of the PGI Offerings, your Content or your Account, effective at any time, without notice to you, for any reason

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 13 April 2018 - 04:07 AM, said:

Actually we do not know that HBS "settled" we know that they were "Dismissed with Prejudice" Which could mean that HG realised they had no actual standing on having them involved in the lawsuit and just let them go, seeing as how they were not utilizing any of the "alleged infringing": designs in the the first place.

That, and the fact the court has the power to institute financial sanctions on any litigant it deems frivolous (and the judge threatened HG with that before).

From HBS' perspective, they could successfully defend, but if the case dragged out long enough it could bankrupt them.
From HG's perspective, they could bankrupt HBS by dragging the case out but they had no chance of actually winning against them when it came to trial.
Essentially, both sides could keep at it but it would just end up in mutually assured destruction. If HG realized their position, it was cheaper for them to just drop the case against HBS .

Edited by Horseman, 13 April 2018 - 04:43 AM.

[N0MAD]

you are correct, TOS covers it, my bad. i knew that just brain fart, i expect nothing from PGI.

[Bahumat]

HG might also want to avoid pulling in more problems from Paradox, who stand to make quite a bit of money from the Battletech game as their partnership with HBS would be put in jeopardy if HG blocked the game. Could be possible that HG realised that if they left it in the courts they'd be unlikely to bankrupt HBS before Paradox stepped in.

The main reason I mention this is that HG was veeeerrryy quiet when Microsoft was making Mechwarrior games: they tend to not fight people who have the money to fight them in court.

It's equally likely it wasn't this, but it's possible they just realised they bit off more than they could chew. That being said, given HG doesn't actually make anything new any more, how the hell do they FUND their legal team?

[Dee Eight]

HG was quite when microsoft was making the games because they're not dumb enough to challenge a company with more money than the GDP of several countries.

[Adridos]

Dee Eight, on 13 April 2018 - 06:22 AM, said:

HG was quite when microsoft was making the games because they're not dumb enough to challenge a company with more money than the GDP of several countries.

Bahumat, on 13 April 2018 - 06:05 AM, said:

The main reason I mention this is that HG was veeeerrryy quiet when Microsoft was making Mechwarrior games: they tend to not fight people who have the money to fight them in court.

Microsoft also made games set in Civil War and Jihad. Eras without any real unseen involvement. Same for their games' selection of mechs outside of Longbow. Which looked absolutely nothing like the BT version, just like the Black Lanner.

Edited by Adridos, 13 April 2018 - 06:39 AM.

[N0MAD]

Dee Eight, on 13 April 2018 - 06:22 AM, said:

HG was quite when microsoft was making the games because they're not dumb enough to challenge a company with more money than the GDP of several countries.

Microsoft also didnt use the unseen thats most likely why there was no friction.
No one that made any MW type of game touched the unseen, why do you think that is?
Wasnt HBS going to use the unseen before the legal stuff started? i was under the impression they were ( pls correct me if wrong) then they said no, no unseen, now they settled or whatever shortly after that letter turns up from the top guy of one of the companies that should know about the ins and outs of the legal situation.
Look i know you Btech/MW fanboys are very loyal to the IP but i think you are not looking at reality here, no one used the unseen since the dispute after MW2 not even MS that has the funds to do it.
Was it Catalyst that dropped out first in current dispute?, now HBS, believe what you like but things are looking bad for PGI.

[Metus regem]

Adridos, on 13 April 2018 - 06:37 AM, said:

Microsoft also made games set in Civil War and Jihad. Eras without any real unseen involvement. Same for their games' selection of mechs outside of Longbow. Which looked absolutely nothing like the BT version, just like the Black Lanner.

Though interestingly enough, HG didn't raise a stink when MekTek Packs for MW4 contained these little gems:

Wasp
Warhammer
Archer
Marauder
Marauder II
Stone Rhino

All of those had looks close enough to their unseen versions to have given HG enough reason to go law suit happy, but didn't...

Edited by Metus regem, 13 April 2018 - 07:40 AM.

[legionofvega]

So reading through all the speculation and comments, what are the facts at the moment?

1. HBS was dismissed from the case with prejudice.
2. As part of the dismissal, HG has also agreed not to sue HBS again.
3. We don't know if HBS settled or was just dropped from the case? Or do we know they settled?
4. We don't have any knowledge if HBS acknowledged HG"s claim on the unseen mechs.
5. PGI is still in case and has not made any response since this new development.

Anything I'm missing here? Just trying to get things straight for us lowly peons

Metus regem, on 13 April 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

Though interestingly enough, HG didn't raise a stink when MekTek Packs for MW4 contained these little gems:

Wasp
Warhammer
Archer
Marauder
Marauder II
Stone Rhino

All of those had looks close enough to their unseen versions to have given HG enough reason to go law suit happy, but didn't...

These were all fan made and there was no money involved. There's no incentive for HG to sue and spend money.

I would be willing to bet the unseens will appear in a mod for Battletech over time. Someone will make the 3d models and do the coding to add it in.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Metus regem, on 13 April 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

Though interestingly enough, HG didn't raise a stink when MekTek Packs for MW4 contained these little gems:

Wasp
Warhammer
Archer
Marauder
Marauder II
Stone Rhino

All of those had looks close enough to their unseen versions to have given HG enough reason to go law suit happy, but didn't...

Because no money was being made on those.

[Metus regem]

legionofvega, on 13 April 2018 - 07:43 AM, said:

So reading through all the speculation and comments, what are the facts at the moment?

1. HBS was dismissed from the case with prejudice.
2. As part of the dismissal, HG has also agreed not to sue HBS again.
3. We don't know if HBS settled or was just dropped from the case? Or do we know they settled?
4. We don't have any knowledge if HBS acknowledged HG"s claim on the unseen mechs.
5. PGI is still in case and has not made any response since this new development.

Anything I'm missing here? Just trying to get things straight for us lowly peons



These were all fan made and there was no money involved. There's no incentive for HG to sue and spend money.

I would be willing to bet the unseens will appear in a mod for Battletech over time. Someone will make the 3d models and do the coding to add it in.

Thing is about copy right law, you have to enforce your copy right every-time, or it becomes harder to enforce it the next time you want to go after it. If HG really wanted to enforce it, they could've gone after the people responsible... point in example going after Wisemen again at the start of this latest round. I'm guessing, HG just didn't want to get into a legal battle with Micorsoft at the time.

What I think is interesting, is PGI could have ignored it, as they are a Canadian company and are not subject to the American Court system and laws... granted it could've made things tricky for their American customers interms of the unseen mechs, but they were never beholden to engage HG in a legal battle in the first place.

[Zergling]

MekTek wasn't even remotely 'official' or associated with FASA, Wizkids or Microsoft, it was purely a fan made mod.

Those sorts of things do get shut down by copyright owners from time to time, but HG didn't bother with that one.