1809 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

The real kicker is, none of us knows for sure.

As I see it though, the dismissal of HBS and Jordan Weisman could most likely be due to the fact that BattleTech does not have anything in the game that is being disputed (like no reseen designs that conflict with HG's claims). If the suit revolves around HG's claim to certain artwork, and BattleTech doesn't have that artwork present (or is using it to market the product in an official capacity), then why wouldn't that part of the case be dismissed?

As for PGI, they are using their own Reseen designs (and are doing so actively). That is definitely reason for HG to continue a court case against PGI. The results of this will have to be seen. Either it gets thrown out soon (due to HG not obtaining the proper paperwork proving they have the rights) which is something I doubt will happen, or the case gets delayed about a year as HG tries to obtain such "proof" from the Japanese courts (an action I feel is more designed to delay the court actions and try to force PGI to the bargaining table out of sheer added court/lawyer fees).

In any case, if PGI wins and shows HG does not own the rights to that imagery, then I am thinking that will leave HBS open to adding PGI's reseens sometime later. If HG somehow wins, then PGI will have to make whatever changes are necessary, and HBS won't be able to add those designs going forward.

Either way, this seems to me like HBS is off the hook since they don't have any infringing assets in their product. It's PGI which is now the one having to fight to keep their reseens in their product, and allowing HBS to eventually use them if the case is won by PGI.

Again this is how it is coming across to me as a layman on the matter.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 16 April 2018 - 09:18 AM.

[Fox the Apprentice]

Arnold The Governator, on 16 April 2018 - 09:10 AM, said:

[...]
You forgot to also mention that HG promised to never harass HBS after this suit about the mech designs, simply because HG realizes that they have no standing ground to sue them to begin with.
[...]

HBS was included in the lawsuit over the Atlas, Locust, and some other mech that I can't remember. HG never sued HBS over the unseen - that's what they're suing PGI over. So the dismissal with prejudice might only apply to those mechs - not the unseen.

Edited by Fox the Apprentice, 16 April 2018 - 09:19 AM.

[FireStoat]

What isn't speculation is that people modding mechs into the game will complete the Unseen for use in HBS battletech regardless of PGI's case outcome. The way the JSON files are arranged and how the assets are packed, adding mechs was a thing during the Beta and will continue to be a thing. It's just a lot of extra work to take PGI's MWO model assets and arrange their placement and spacing correctly, and then 'borrow' skeleton animations from mechs that are similar. It's going to happen, it will just take some time. But once the mod files are done they'll be good to go for the future expansions of HBS battletech.

The big issue I'm seeing at the moment is with Mechwarrior 5. With it being set in the 3025 era (again) the unseen for this crowd is every bit as important, and the shackles of 'derivative works' would preclude content for that game as well as future content for MWO in the form of the Rifleman and Warhammer IIC mechpacks. PGI is in it to win it, and once they do (and they will) everyone will rejoice and get what they officially want.

[jss78]

Chados, on 16 April 2018 - 08:43 AM, said:

And that’s the point. Again, stipulated dismissals only happen when both sides are in agreement. The judge didn’t dismiss it. He merely entered an order on agreement of the parties. And Harmony Gold got what it wanted regarding Weisman and Harebrained without having to put it before a jury, saving resources it now can throw at PGI.

Anyone with an ounce of clear-eyed common sense, minimal proficiency in reading English, and any legal experience whatsoever can see easily who got what and thus who won this part of the lawsuit at the end of the day. HBS gets not to be sued and doesn’t have to pay HG’s legal costs. That’s all. Nothing else. Status quo ante except no Unseen for them. So they’re worse off than they started because originally they had that Marauder in the build and now, no Marauder. Harmony Gold got no Unseen in HBS’s game, which it’s been after from jump, with no more effort than it already has expended. Again, the Marauder in the alpha build is *gone*. What did Harmony Gold want? No Unseen in HBS’s game. This isn’t advanced rocket science. HG let Weisman go because Weisman caved in.

But by all means, keep spinning all you like. It won’t change the bottom line: No Unseen in HBS’s Battletech. Ever. I don’t like it any more than the rest of you, the Rifleman is my all time favorite mech. But I’m not going to lie to myself either.

A question comes to my mind (don't know much about legal issues, even less in USA).

What happens with HBS's situation if PGI goes on to win their own case and it's demonstrated that HG has no rights to the designs they claim. Is it possible that HBS would still be bound by the (hypothetical) agreement saying that there shall be no unseen in HBS BT?

[Fox the Apprentice]

jss78, on 16 April 2018 - 10:02 AM, said:

A question comes to my mind (don't know much about legal issues, even less in USA).

What happens with HBS's situation if PGI goes on to win their own case and it's demonstrated that HG has no rights to the designs they claim. Is it possible that HBS would still be bound by the (hypothetical) agreement saying that there shall be no unseen in HBS BT?

It depends on what agreement there was (if any). It's theoretically possible that they both signed the document without any additional stipulations.

Odds are, any restriction to the unseen would be based off of HG's claim to have the copyright, and if PGI proves that HG doesn't have the copyright, then the agreement would fall.

[BadgerWI]

Can't wait for the 20th. As a watcher of many discovery channel court room documentaries I find this entire process fascinating. Will the murder of my ability to play with a warhammer in MW 2-4 finally be brought to justice? Or will my hopes and dreams be dashed upon the rocks like so many baby sea otters during a storm. (Let's face it HG wold kill an ulimited number of baby sea otters in order to keep control. ) I along with all of you will find out soon! Either that and the clock runs out in May and we get no answers and this farce starts all over again the next time HG gets an itch.

Edited by BadgerWI, 16 April 2018 - 11:45 AM.

[Trystan Thorne]

All we do here is speculating (even you Chados).
We won't know anything what kind of deals have been made until we get confirmation from official side.

I'll keep following this case of course, would love if it would be over soon in PGI's favour, but I fear it will take while longer.

[Lugin]

Fetladral, on 16 April 2018 - 05:54 AM, said:

Is that going to be a mod for battletech? The mechs are replaced by Disney princesses.

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 16 April 2018 - 06:28 AM, said:

I mean, anything's possible.

Psst. Hey. Look at what was put out for free for April Fools' Day a few years back.
https://store.cataly...yal-fantasy-pdf

-edit- The Sarna article, for those wanting an overview: http://www.sarna.net...:_Royal_Fantasy

Edited by Lugin, 16 April 2018 - 02:26 PM.

[Chados]

Trystan Thorne, on 16 April 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

All we do here is speculating (even you Chados).
We won't know anything what kind of deals have been made until we get confirmation from official side.

I'll keep following this case of course, would love if it would be over soon in PGI's favour, but I fear it will take while longer.

That’s true, I don’t have inside info. I’m just making educated guesses based on experience. I’d like to be proven wrong, frankly, and I hope PGI pulls a rabbit out of their hats. They have topnotch talent working for them, so there is that.

[M Jordanus Sicarius]

Chados, on 16 April 2018 - 08:43 AM, said:

And that’s the point. Again, stipulated dismissals only happen when both sides are in agreement. The judge didn’t dismiss it. He merely entered an order on agreement of the parties. And Harmony Gold got what it wanted regarding Weisman and Harebrained without having to put it before a jury, saving resources it now can throw at PGI.

Anyone with an ounce of clear-eyed common sense, minimal proficiency in reading English, and any legal experience whatsoever can see easily who got what and thus who won this part of the lawsuit at the end of the day. HBS gets not to be sued and doesn’t have to pay HG’s legal costs. That’s all. Nothing else. Status quo ante except no Unseen for them. So they’re worse off than they started because originally they had that Marauder in the build and now, no Marauder. Harmony Gold got no Unseen in HBS’s game, which it’s been after from jump, with no more effort than it already has expended. Again, the Marauder in the alpha build is *gone*. What did Harmony Gold want? No Unseen in HBS’s game. This isn’t advanced rocket science. HG let Weisman go because Weisman caved in.

But by all means, keep spinning all you like. It won’t change the bottom line: No Unseen in HBS’s Battletech. Ever. I don’t like it any more than the rest of you, the Rifleman is my all time favorite mech. But I’m not going to lie to myself either.

Don't really understand how you can make a perfectly reasonable argument than come off the rails at the end over and over with what is very clearly your (speculative) opinion. HBS' participation in the lawsuit had nothing to do with the unseen. Them exiting the lawsuit has nothing to do with the unseen. Perhaps HG got HBS to agree to terms that they would not use the unseen, but you have no evidence to suggest that is the case. HG gets something out of HBS exiting even if no such terms were ever agreed to, in as you have already noted, removing an adversaries resources. No one except those actually involved knows what happens, and there is plenty of other legal analysis on this case that is making the opposite argument that you are, that this is a positive development.

Whether the unseen appear in BattleTech will depend on what happens with PGI. Any other conclusion to be drawn is speculation, with some conclusions being less based on evidence than others (and I would throw the conclusion that HBS exiting the suit will lead to the permanent exclusion of the unseen from HBS games as the latter)

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Lugin, on 16 April 2018 - 02:23 PM, said:

Psst. Hey. Look at what was put out for free for April Fools' Day a few years back.
https://store.cataly...yal-fantasy-pdf

-edit- The Sarna article, for those wanting an overview: http://www.sarna.net...:_Royal_Fantasy

oh, oh my ******* god... I had NO idea about this XTRO... and I'm rolling... God I love Catalyst sometimes.

[MustrumRidcully]

Fox the Apprentice, on 16 April 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

HBS was included in the lawsuit over the Atlas, Locust, and some other mech that I can't remember. HG never sued HBS over the unseen - that's what they're suing PGI over. So the dismissal with prejudice might only apply to those mechs - not the unseen.

The Shadow Hawk, Atlas and Locust definitely seem part of the game now, so whatever agreement they made, it seems like Harebrained can use them. I don't know what that means for any other mechs, whether they are rather safe than sorry and don't use them in the end, or they are safe with the agreement and will eventually include the Marauder. We don't know.

[Alan Davion]

MustrumRidcully, on 17 April 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

The Shadow Hawk, Atlas and Locust definitely seem part of the game now, so whatever agreement they made, it seems like Harebrained can use them. I don't know what that means for any other mechs, whether they are rather safe than sorry and don't use them in the end, or they are safe with the agreement and will eventually include the Marauder. We don't know.

The only reason HG tried to use the Atlas, Shadow Hawk and Locust as "proof of infringement" on their supposed copywrights was so that they could try and go after Jordan Weisman because they probably still think he's the guy behind everything to do with Battletech from PC to Table Top.

We all knew that attempt would fall flat on its face, it's just a damn shame it took a year for it to happen.

[Thorn Hallis]

Any news on this?

[Alan Davion]

Thorn Hallis, on 18 April 2018 - 02:54 AM, said:

Any news on this?

See the dates listed below.

Arnold The Governator, on 14 April 2018 - 09:09 AM, said:

• RENOTE defendant Piranha games Inc's87 Second Motion for Summary Judgment: Noting date 4/20/2018;
  
• directing Harmony to SHOW CAUSE by 5/4/2018 why its claims against defendants Does 1-10 should not be dismissed without prejudice for failure to prosecute.

Until those dates have come and gone, we won't hear anything new, and even then not until a few days afterward. The earliest we'd actually find out anything is Monday the 23rd of this month, and Monday the 7th of May when the records are actually released to people with the means to access them. i.e. People with what I think is called a PACER account?

[Jack Shayu Walker]

MadHornet, on 23 July 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

*Distant screeching*


-Harmony Gold

[BadgerWI]

Hopefully PGI rolls dbl sixes and gets the head shot on the 20th and we all pop the cork and party the weekend away.

[Valdarion Silarius]

This was posted over on the bg.battletech forums. A guy called Youtuber Law covered the lawsuit up to this date. Over all very good news coming from someone that studies and analyses court cases:

[Chados]

I agree with this guy’s analysis in that he boils down the question to who owns the derivative rights. That’s an open question. He’s not saying anything that I and the other lawyers in the thread haven’t said, as to this. The question always has been whether Tatsunoko has the rights it licensed to Harmony Gold. Does it? PGI’s lawyers say it doesn’t; HG says it does, and Tatsunoko says that it does.

The difference between his analysis and mine is that he thinks the summary judgment motion should fall for PGI, where I don’t think it will. My disagreement with my learned friend stems from his not taking into account the law that where a factual dispute is demonstrated, that creates a question to be resolved not by the judge but by the trier of fact; in other words, a jury question not susceptible to judgment on the pleadings. Has HG, with Tatsunoko’s help, demonstrated enough of a factual dispute to bypass summary judgment and get to the trial calendar? That remains to be seen.

The resolution of that issue will drive the settlement that will come after, and in large part will determine who has the initiative in those negotiations.

[BadgerWI]

Chados, on 18 April 2018 - 11:17 AM, said:

The resolution of that issue will drive the settlement that will come after, and in large part will determine who has the initiative in those negotiations.

I always hated rolling for initiative.