1809 replies to this topic

[Sereglach]

Arnold The Governator, on 08 June 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

Wait a minute. I looked at the store page and they have the Incubus (vixen) release recently. The Incubus is an unseen (but by judging on PGI's model is a nuseen). Something must have happened behind the scenes where PGI and HG came to some agreement to continue to make reimagined unseens in order for this to happen.

Not applicable here. The Incubus -as unseen- was a 3rd party design that was created for Fasa, under contract done by Victor Musical Industries Inc., for use in the Battletech franchise. HOWEVER, after the events with HG, Fasa yanked ALL artwork that wasn't made in-house, for their own safety. Therefore, the Incubus isn't related to HG in any way and they have absolutely no grounds with which to go after it.

As usual, Sarna has solid documentation on this: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Unseen

Not a lawyer, not legal advice, etc . . .

That said, even the original Incubus artwork was obviously inspired (not derivative or copied, but inspired) by some other classics. I think it was a very specific selection made by PGI for the sake of proving to HG that they can make inspired works that are NOT copies or direct derivatives; and it's completely within their right to do it.

Now, if PGI would fix what I want them to fix in MWO, I'd buy the Incubus in a heartbeat. I've always liked that mech.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Sereglach, on 08 June 2018 - 12:52 PM, said:

Not applicable here. The Incubus -as unseen- was a 3rd party design that was created for Fasa, under contract done by Victor Musical Industries Inc., for use in the Battletech franchise. HOWEVER, after the events with HG, Fasa yanked ALL artwork that wasn't made in-house, for their own safety. Therefore, the Incubus isn't related to HG in any way and they have absolutely no grounds with which to go after it.

As usual, Sarna has solid documentation on this: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Unseen

Not a lawyer, not legal advice, etc . . .

That said, even the original Incubus artwork was obviously inspired (not derivative or copied, but inspired) by some other classics. I think it was a very specific selection made by PGI for the sake of proving to HG that they can make inspired works that are NOT copies or direct derivatives; and it's completely within their right to do it.

Now, if PGI would fix what I want them to fix in MWO, I'd buy the Incubus in a heartbeat. I've always liked that mech.

Going by that logic then why would they take any unnecessary future legal risks since they released the Incubus? If anything FASA pulled from VMI because it was "out-of-house" source material artwork, then any nuseen PGI made Rifleman IIC, Warhammer IIC, Stone Rhino etc should be safe to use in game then. Does that mean the IS Crusader is out of the question? I wonder how this affects the remaining reseen that are currently in game.

[Sereglach]

Arnold The Governator, on 08 June 2018 - 01:19 PM, said:

Going by that logic then why would they take any unnecessary future legal risks since they released the Incubus? If anything FASA pulled from VMI because it was "out-of-house" source material artwork, then any nuseen PGI made Rifleman IIC, Warhammer IIC, Stone Rhino etc should be safe to use in game then. Does that mean the IS Crusader is out of the question? I wonder how this affects the remaining reseen that are currently in game.

Not a lawyer, etc . . .

The Crusader was licensed by Fasa from Twentieth Century Imports that HG later sued over purportedly having exclusive rights outside Japan (ironic, since they never had the rights to the characters in the first place); and given current legal standings -pre potential settlement or HG losing horribly in court- HG would sue over any PGI reimagining of the classics just because of the mech's name (like they did for the Marauder, Archer, etc.).

On the other hand, those IIC mechs that you mention, as well as the Stone Rino, are more of the Victor Musical Industries mech designs. Theoretically PGI absolutely could make them and add them to the game. However, it's worth noting that any mechs that share the name of any original unseen chassis would likely draw ire from HG in current legal climates (again, talking pre settlement talks or potential HG trial loss).

Of course, a lot of this will depend on how any settlement unfolds. While I have my reservations, it's worth noting -as stated by others- that any settlement is going to ensure that no one is suing anyone else again over the matter.

My personal hope is that HG sees the corner they've painted themselves into -given all of the evidence against them- and have come crawling to PGI for a settlement so they don't end up suffering for 30 years of bullying people over the Battletech IP. Just imagine all of the people who could come after them . . . Jordan Weisman, CGL, Fasa (currently owned by MICROSOFT and supported by their legal machine), and others. It'd blow up in HG's face like they couldn't believe. When you consider the damages they could come after HG for, the last thing HG would want is 30 years of the bullied coming back to gang up on the recently defanged bully. It makes me wonder if Hasbro was moving towards the same sort of legal conclusion with HG before HG settled with Hasbro over the Jetfire issue.

EDIT: Corrected error on who FASA licensed the original Unseen artwork from.

Edited by Sereglach, 08 June 2018 - 09:35 PM.

[CanadianCyrus]

I don't know if it's a sign of anything, but with the Road map that was posted the other day, all the suspect reseens are getting weapon models added for 3060 tech in August.

[Sereglach]

Funzo, on 08 June 2018 - 07:19 PM, said:

I don't know if it's a sign of anything, but with the Road map that was posted the other day, all the suspect reseens are getting weapon models added for 3060 tech in August.

You know, I hadn't even thought about that, but that's a good thing to point out. At the very least, I'd say it means that the PGI renditions of the Classics -already in the game- aren't going anywhere, seeing as there are plenty of other chassis that the mech team could have put effort into.

While I don't want to get too overly optimistic, I'd still like to believe that HG is coming to the settlement table with its tail between its legs. There's just far too much evidence stacked against them. I just wish PGI would have pushed them into court where it could be settled once and for all . . . sadly I understand that such a move is incredibly expensive; and if PGI can push them to a settlement table, instead, then it's more financially advisable for them. Even if they'd (likely) win in a courtroom, and get their legal expenses as part of the damages awarded, they'd still have to shell out a lot of money in the interim before that point.

[Horseman]

Sereglach, on 08 June 2018 - 05:35 PM, said:

The Crusader was licensed by Fasa from HG (ironic, since they never had the right to license it in the first place);

No, it wasn't. FASA licensed from Twentieth Century Imports, not from HG.

[Sereglach]

Horseman, on 08 June 2018 - 09:26 PM, said:

No, it wasn't. FASA licensed from Twentieth Century Imports, not from HG.

You're right, my apologies. Corrected the post above. The Battletech and HG history is so fugly and such a Charlie Foxtrot that you've gotta give some slack on getting info wrong once in a while. Trying to track all the IP rights is a mess.

The annoying part for me, I think I read right over the line about who FASA licensed from on the Sarna articles half a dozen times over the last month or two.

Edited by Sereglach, 08 June 2018 - 09:35 PM.

[Adridos]

Sereglach, on 08 June 2018 - 12:52 PM, said:

Not applicable here. The Incubus -as unseen- was a 3rd party design that was created for Fasa, under contract done by Victor Musical Industries Inc., for use in the Battletech franchise.

That's not true. They made all the artwork for their ports of the Mechwarrior games. FASA being FASA, assumed ownership of all the assets and used them in the TT game.

Sereglach, on 08 June 2018 - 12:52 PM, said:

That said, even the original Incubus artwork was obviously inspired (not derivative or copied, but inspired) by some other classics.

The original Incubus artwork is a clear copy of contemporary DYRL and Macross II designs. It is absolutely not legally sound in any way, shape or form. The saving grace is that while it's not really legal, it's also absolutely detached from Robotech/HG as they don't even pretend to have rights to DYRL or Macross II.

If you want to see the ramifications of this, try and get Pergerine into the game. It's a very slightly redrawn Zaku and boy, would a legal battle with a juggernaut of Bandai's proportions clear things up for you.

[Sereglach]

Adridos, on 08 June 2018 - 09:43 PM, said:

*snip*

There was never a lawsuit and the artwork was yanked before there was ever an issue, anyway. Regardless, while the PGI incarnation is inspired by the original, it's still very clearly its own thing; and if PGI did the Peregrine I'm sure they'd make sure it was their own take -that was inspired by the original- as well.

Regardless, the original artwork for those mechs was created for Battletech by Victor Musical Industries Inc. and yanked before there were any legal issues. It was made clear at the time of their removal that the only reason they were ever removed and declared unseen is because the artwork was made "out of house". You can argue whatever you want, but the FASA vs. Playmates lawsuit suggests that they could have stood up in court vs. anything from Macross, but FASA didn't have the resources to withstand another potential lawsuit. However, no lawsuit ever happened, so therefore it doesn't matter and the arguments are pointless.

What does matter is the court case at hand and how a potential settlement is going to turn out. Right now the evidence is stacked heavily against HG, and PGI should have the upper hand, but we won't know until announcements are made and/or court documents become available for public viewing.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Adridos, on 08 June 2018 - 09:43 PM, said:

That's not true. They made all the artwork for their ports of the Mechwarrior games. FASA being FASA, assumed ownership of all the assets and used them in the TT game.



The original Incubus artwork is a clear copy of contemporary DYRL and Macross II designs. It is absolutely not legally sound in any way, shape or form. The saving grace is that while it's not really legal, it's also absolutely detached from Robotech/HG as they don't even pretend to have rights to DYRL or Macross II.

If you want to see the ramifications of this, try and get Pergerine into the game. It's a very slightly redrawn Zaku and boy, would a legal battle with a juggernaut of Bandai's proportions clear things up for you.

It actually shares a lot more with the Japanese Battletech designs then anything from Macross. Here's an example of the Wasp.

http://www.gearsonli...cha/btech15.jpg

Of course, Studio Nue did all the art under contract from FASA for Japanese Battletech. So that explains why it appears to be a derivative of Macross as it's same company that did both.

Here's a page with all the redesigned mechs.

http://www.gearsonli...ies/battletech/

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 09 June 2018 - 04:46 AM.

[Adridos]

James The Fox Dixon, on 09 June 2018 - 04:45 AM, said:

It actually shares a lot more with the Japanese Battletech designs then anything from Macross. Here's an example of the Wasp.

You are mixing things up, James.
We are talking about the mech designs made by Atsushi Takeuchi (may or may not be THAT guy who also made designs for Ghost in the Shell, Patlabor movies and so on) for Mechwarrior 1 PC-98 and X68k (バトルテック奪われた聖杯). FASA took those and reused them for IIC mechs in a TRO.

Victor Musical Records - Shadow Hawk (made into IIC in BT)

Spoiler

You are talking about the designs made by Studio Nue for the Japanese release of BattleTech, the board game.
Studio Nue - Shadow Hawk (Solaris mechs in BT)

Spoiler

And here's the original, just to finish the trio of Japanese designs for the mech.
Sunrise - Dougram (made into Shadow Hawk in BT)

Spoiler

Edited by Adridos, 09 June 2018 - 06:27 AM.

[DFM]

Conflicted on this. Biggest thing about settlements is they're like fight club. Parties involved just don't talk about them(for good reasons). Was hoping that HG was going to eventually get the kick in the taint it rightly deserved, but PGI has shown more backbone in regards to them than anyone other than Hasbro has though and that's commendable.

As to the results, I guess we'll see. Or not see.

[SmokedJag]

DFM, on 09 June 2018 - 07:54 AM, said:

Conflicted on this. Biggest thing about settlements is they're like fight club. Parties involved just don't talk about them(for good reasons). Was hoping that HG was going to eventually get the kick in the taint it rightly deserved, but PGI has shown more backbone in regards to them than anyone other than Hasbro has though and that's commendable.

As to the results, I guess we'll see. Or not see.

It's common to settle even if victory is practically assured. In fact it's rare for anything lopsided to *not* settle. Settling with HG doesn't inherently mean they get anything, especially with how the case was going.

[DFM]

SmokedJag, on 09 June 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

It's common to settle even if victory is practically assured. In fact it's rare for anything lopsided to *not* settle. Settling with HG doesn't inherently mean they get anything, especially with how the case was going.

oh I know that, but it's still a settlement, not a initial slap to the mouth by a court district saying you are wrong, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Adridos, on 09 June 2018 - 06:24 AM, said:

You are mixing things up, James.
We are talking about the mech designs made by Atsushi Takeuchi (may or may not be THAT guy who also made designs for Ghost in the Shell, Patlabor movies and so on) for Mechwarrior 1 PC-98 and X68k (バトルテック奪われた聖杯). FASA took those and reused them for IIC mechs in a TRO.

Victor Musical Records - Shadow Hawk (made into IIC in BT)

Spoiler

You are talking about the designs made by Studio Nue for the Japanese release of BattleTech, the board game.
Studio Nue - Shadow Hawk (Solaris mechs in BT)

Spoiler

And here's the original, just to finish the trio of Japanese designs for the mech.
Sunrise - Dougram (made into Shadow Hawk in BT)

Spoiler

Nope, I'm not mixing anything up. I'm pointing out that the Incubus shares more in common with the Japanese Battletech then it does with Macross. The point you are missing is that Studio Nue did the work on both Macross and Japanese Battletech. The copyright laws are quite different in Japan and by placing the US Copyright law and cases into the mix you are ignoring what the Japanese have said on the matter. In short, you are comparing apples to oranges to make your case. I am comparing apples to apples as both VMI and Studio Nue are Japanese creators that adhere to Japanese copyright law.

Now if you want to get technical, the work done by VMI was a work for hire and FASA owns the rights fully. When HG sued FASA, FASA's response was to throw the baby out with the bath water on all external art designs. This includes all work that was done by outside studios that was a work for hire. In my opinion, it was stupid.

One thing that people are overlooking in this lawsuit is that Discord Pyrite made the claim that they own all things big stompy robot in the US. It's right there in their court filings in the PGI, HBS, and CGL cases. That's quite impossible since in US copyright history that the big stompy robot genre was started by authors like HG Wells and so on. Read HG Wells' War of the Worlds. What do the Martians use to attack earth? Big stompy robots.

[Adridos]

James The Fox Dixon, on 09 June 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

I'm pointing out that the Incubus shares more in common with the Japanese Battletech then it does with Macross.

It absolutely does not. You'd have to be legally blind to make such a weird observation. We already got into this topic once https://mwomercs.com...6121-wt-gundam/, the pictures are there.

James The Fox Dixon, on 09 June 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

The point you are missing is that Studio Nue did the work on both Macross and Japanese Battletech.

The entire imported collection of Macross shows from the original to Delta (still waiting for Gekijou no Walkure which comes out on disc in summer) I have disagrees with that entirely. I know very well what Studio Nue did and what they did not.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Adridos, on 09 June 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

It absolutely does not. You'd have to be legally blind to make such a weird observation. We already got into this topic once https://mwomercs.com...6121-wt-gundam/, the pictures are there.


The entire imported collection of Macross shows from the original to Delta (still waiting for Gekijou no Walkure which comes out on disc in summer) I have disagrees with that entirely. I know very well what Studio Nue did and what they did not.

It actually does due to the work for hire agreements between Studio Nue, VMI, and FASA. Japanese Battletech was began during the HG lawsuit. FASA made sure that Studio Nue and VMI steered clear of the Macross designs. Seriously do you know the history of the game and all of its iterations?

[Adridos]

James The Fox Dixon, on 09 June 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

Japanese Battletech was began during the HG lawsuit. FASA made sure that Studio Nue and VMI steered clear of the Macross designs. Seriously do you know the history of the game and all of its iterations?

That's where you're absolutely and utterly wrong.
VMI games came out in 1992 (X68k) and 1993 (PC-98). https://www.suruga-y...il/125002668001
Japanese battletech came out in 1992.　https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%90%E3%83%88%E3%83%AB%E3%83%86%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%80%8C%E3%83%A1%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E6%88%A6%E9%97%98%E3%83%AB%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB%E3%80%8D-%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A7%E3%83%BC%E3%83%80%E3%83%B3-K-%E3%83%AF%E3%82%A4%E3%82%BA%E3%83%9E%E3%83%B3/dp/4829171944

The HG lawsuit began in 1996, Playmates lawsuit (where FASA was the one suing) happened in December 1994.
https://www.eyrie.or...botech/hg-fasa/

Spoiler

[James The Fox Dixon]

Adridos, on 09 June 2018 - 10:23 AM, said:

That's where you're absolutely and utterly wrong.
VMI games came out in 1992 (X68k) and 1993 (PC-98). https://www.suruga-y...il/125002668001
Japanese battletech came out in 1992.　https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%90%E3%83%88%E3%83%AB%E3%83%86%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%80%8C%E3%83%A1%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E6%88%A6%E9%97%98%E3%83%AB%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB%E3%80%8D-%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A7%E3%83%BC%E3%83%80%E3%83%B3-K-%E3%83%AF%E3%82%A4%E3%82%BA%E3%83%9E%E3%83%B3/dp/4829171944

The HG lawsuit began in 1996, Playmates lawsuit (where FASA was the one suing) happened in December 1994.
https://www.eyrie.or...botech/hg-fasa/

In your first link the only mechs in the game are Locust, Warhammer, Phoenix Hawk, Marauder, Jenner, Battlemaster, Shadow Hawk, and Rifleman. Nary an Incubus in sight.

Yes, all those products were made in 1992/3 era while just a few months after publication the first lawsuit filed was FASA v. Playmates over the Timber Wolf design in 1994. At the time, Playmates had linked up with Discord Pyrite the previous year (1993) to bring Robotech to the Exo-Squad toyline while Playmates was also fielding an offer from FASA. Playmates stole the design and changed it enough while still in negotiations with Discord Pyrite. The case dragged for 3 years with Discord Pyrite launching their own lawsuit in 1996.

As I said do you know the history of Battletech and it's iterations plus the legal history?

If you want to check my statements here's an excellent link.

https://robotech.liv...l.com/9102.html

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 11 June 2018 - 05:31 PM.
unconstructive

[Adridos]

James The Fox Dixon, on 09 June 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

In your first link the only mechs in the game are Locust, Warhammer, Phoenix Hawk, Marauder, Jenner, Battlemaster, Shadow Hawk, and Rifleman. Nary an Incubus in sight.

The game had production concept art. FASA made use of that concept art. Incubus was the unused concept art for the Phoenix Hawk.

James The Fox Dixon, on 09 June 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

Yes, all those products were made in 1992/3 era while just a few months after publication the first lawsuit filed was FASA v. Playmates over the Timber Wolf design in 1994.

"A few months later"

Mechwarrior 1 for PC-98 is the newest of these games. The game re-uses the same mech designs from the X68k version from July 1992.
You're looking at 2-3 years between the creation of the mech designs and the first notion of a lawsuit.

James The Fox Dixon, on 09 June 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

*snip*

That's nice and all, but it changes nothing about the lawsuits not starting until years later.
Harmony Gold also sent a C&D to FASA regarding the use of Macross designs all the way back in 1985. FASA never really cared.

Edited by Adridos, 09 June 2018 - 10:58 AM.