83 replies to this topic

[Zergling]

Lucian Nostra, on 31 July 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

Sorry I left out the whole part about the 30 pinpoint which you can't achieve with erppcs or ppcs. Even if they up the ghost heat limit 2 hppc will be better as it occupies 2 hardpoints instead of 3 and comes in a ton and a slot under trip ppc. IS boys can keep ignoring it but hppc is damn good

...if only Inner Sphere mechs had 2 slot DHS, 2 slot XL, 7 slot endo and 7 slot ferro so they could make use of PPCs as easily as Clan mechs can.

[Dago Red]

I don't really get why people simplify it down to strong or not. If clanners can keep range and out poke they will usually win and if I.S. mechs can force a dirty brawl that clanners can't disengage from to cool down then they normally win.

None of the new tech has changed either sides strong suits nor what happens when you stick to them.

[Luminis]

Dago Red, on 31 July 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

None of the new tech has changed either sides strong suits nor what happens when you stick to them.

Yes, but it has changed either side's capabilities to play to these strengths.

[SuomiWarder]

Not in my book. My five Clan Mechs are still more capable and powerful than any of my 90 + IS mechs that are in the same weight category. Clan fan-boys will never give up denying equipment superiority I guess.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Gas Guzzler, on 31 July 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

In practice I found its sustained DPS on heavies or mediums limited due to DHS limitations. On assaults you need to mix with ACs but then it can be decent, the problem is even a 40 PPFLD alpha on an assault is pretty weak when there are 80-94 damage Gauss vomit alphas being thrown around. Its a pretty good weapon though, probably one of my favorites of the new tech.

Not really. I have Heavy PPCs on my Warhammer and my K2 and really have no issues with dual mounting them. However both of them are quirked for PPCs so I am not sure if other non-quirked mechs can handle them so well. On the other hand, even on these mechs, I overall damage output is lower than a las vomit build so even with 30 pin-point alpha on a pair of Heavy PPCs isn't on par with many other Alpha builds.

Overall I think Heavy PPCs are in a good spot. Hell I think most of the IS equipment is either in a good spot or in some cases under performing (MRMs only seem to be decent en mass and RACs are situational at best). However what makes most of those weapons and builds ok is the quirks so I am a bit concerned that PGI has stated they would prefer to do away with quirks.

[Andi Nagasia]

Zergling, on 31 July 2017 - 12:45 PM, said:

...if only Inner Sphere mechs had 2 slot DHS, 2 slot XL, 7 slot endo and 7 slot ferro so they could make use of PPCs as easily as Clan mechs can.

well in tests,
IS Mech(-10%Heat Gen) 20DHS can fire 2ERPPCs, 36%heat on firing, 10seconds to 0%Heat on Bar,
Clan Mech(-10%Heat Gen) 30DHS can fire 2ERPPCs, 34%heat on firing, 8seconds to 0%Heat on Bar,
so ya the gap between the 2 ERPPC Boats doesnt seem like too much of a problem,

[Lucian Nostra]

Zergling, on 31 July 2017 - 12:45 PM, said:

...if only Inner Sphere mechs had 2 slot DHS, 2 slot XL, 7 slot endo and 7 slot ferro so they could make use of PPCs as easily as Clan mechs can.

Is part of the reason hppc is 15 dmg and the cerppc is 2.5+10+2.5 is it not? Not having issues running hppcs so far even with backup weapons. Ymmv and all that

[oldradagast]

In raw power? it is very hard to say, though something things stand out. For example, there's really nothing quite like the Kodiak 3 on the IS side. Also, I love Hunchbacks, and I can't help but notice how the Clan one can mount 2 UAC10's, while the IS one can only mount 1 UAC20. So, there is certainly an edge there for Clan tech.

On the flip side, IS gets better quirks, and I generally like the IS playstyle better, even though I have trouble defining what that is. More brawling and cooler running? Maybe? Heck, with new tech, the distinction blurs more. I like my Clan Hunchie with the 2 UAC10's, but I also like my IS Hunchie with the 1 UAC20. I can't say either is "better" - I probably have a worse record in the Clan one because I didn't own it during potato farming years and it gets played more in group play against good teams, but they both feel comparable in power.

Honestly, after New Tech, I think it really comes more down to playstyles meshing with mechs since both sides have a full range of options now.

[Zergling]

Andi Nagasia, on 31 July 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

well in tests,
IS Mech(-10%Heat Gen) 20DHS can fire 2ERPPCs, 36%heat on firing, 10seconds to 0%Heat on Bar,
Clan Mech(-10%Heat Gen) 30DHS can fire 2ERPPCs, 34%heat on firing, 8seconds to 0%Heat on Bar,
so ya the gap between the 2 ERPPC Boats doesnt seem like too much of a problem,

Lemme math it out.

IS mech with 10% heat gen, 20 DHS and 2x ER PPCs = 65 heat capacity, 3.50 heat dissipation per second, 24.3 heat per salvo, 6.075 heat generated per second.
A single salvo will bring it to 37.38% heat, and it will take 6.94 seconds to cool off.
That results in 57.61% heat efficiency, 5.00 max DPS and 2.88 sustained DPS.

Clan mech with 10% heat gen, 30 DHS and 2x ER PPCs = 80 heat capacity, 5.00 heat dissipation per second, 26.1 heat per salvo, 5.8 heat generated per second.
A single salvo will bring it up to 32.63% heat, and it will take 5.22 seconds to cool off.
That results in 86.21% heat efficiency, 4.44 max DPS and 3.83 sustained DPS.

So without -% heat gen quirks, Clan ER PPCs are far superior to IS, and it takes something on the order of -15% or -20% to achieve parity with Clan.

That results in 57.61% heat efficiency, 5.00 max DPS and 2.88 sustained DPS.

Lucian Nostra, on 31 July 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

Is part of the reason hppc is 15 dmg and the cerppc is 2.5+10+2.5 is it not? Not having issues running hppcs so far even with backup weapons. Ymmv and all that

Yes, that is part of the reason; the others is how the HPPC is 10 tons and 4 slots, while the Clan ER PPC is only 6 tons and 2 slots, while also being shorter ranged, having a minimum range and worse projectile velocity.

Thanks to the HPPC having 15 PPFLD, it is a good weapon, but the Clan ER PPC is honestly still the best PPC.

Edited by Zergling, 31 July 2017 - 03:09 PM.

[Ghostrider0067]

My Cataphract builds all seem much improved compared to before. I've not yet taken out any of my Cyclops builds but suspect more of the same.

[Andi Nagasia]

Zergling, on 31 July 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

Lemme math it out.

IS mech with 10% heat gen, 20 DHS and 2x ER PPCs = 65 heat capacity, 3.50 heat dissipation per second, 24.3 heat per salvo, 6.075 heat generated per second.
A single salvo will bring it to 37.38% heat, and it will take 6.94 seconds to cool off.
That results in 57.61% heat efficiency, 5.00 max DPS and 2.88 sustained DPS.

Clan mech with 10% heat gen, 30 DHS and 2x ER PPCs = 80 heat capacity, 5.00 heat dissipation per second, 26.1 heat per salvo, 5.8 heat generated per second.
A single salvo will bring it up to 32.63% heat, and it will take 5.22 seconds to cool off.
That results in 86.21% heat efficiency, 4.44 max DPS and 3.83 sustained DPS.

So without -% heat gen quirks, Clan ER PPCs are far superior to IS, and it takes something on the order of -15% or -20% to achieve parity with Clan.

That results in 57.61% heat efficiency, 5.00 max DPS and 2.88 sustained DPS.

im just telling you my results,
-
KGC-000 (250) +10DHS(+10Engine)(20) +2 ERPPCs(skill tree -10ish% HeatGen)
36%heat on firing, 10seconds to 0%Heat on Bar,
-
SNV-B (250) +20DHS(+10Engine)(30) +2 ERPPCs(skill tree -10ish% HeatGen)
34%heat on firing, 8seconds to 0%Heat on Bar,
-
all this above was tested in game with these builds,
tested and timed each 20 times on Crimson Straight,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 31 July 2017 - 03:22 PM.

[Zergling]

Andi Nagasia, on 31 July 2017 - 03:22 PM, said:

im just telling you my results,
-
KGC-000 (250) +10DHS(+10Engine)(20) +2 ERPPCs(skill tree -10ish% HeatGen)
36%heat on firing, 10seconds to 0%Heat on Bar,
-
SNV-B (250) +20DHS(+10Engine)(30) +2 ERPPCs(skill tree -10ish% HeatGen)
34%heat on firing, 8seconds to 0%Heat on Bar,
-
all this above was tested in game with these builds,
tested and timed each 20 times on Crimson Straight,

It's possible PGI has made some changes to how the heat system is calculated, 'cause my calculated results seem a bit off when compared to ingame results.
EDIT: my bad; this was just because I was testing lasers versus calculated results recently; lasers generate heat throughout the beam firing, not all at once like a PPC does.
When I checked time to cool off after firing lasers, it was exactly the same as my calculated results.


That 2 seconds faster cooling time for the Clan ER PPC build is significant though, as it results in the Clan build having around 25% more sustained DPS, without even accounting for cERPPC splash.


EDIT: just testing ingame atm. 2x cERPPC with 10 engine DHS and nothing else, and no skill points, is producing heat exactly as calculated.
EDIT 2: also takes exactly predicted amount of time to cool off after firing, I'll add some heatsinks next and test again.
EDIT 3: still exactly as calculated with 10 engine + 10 external DHS, I'll try some IS ER PPCs next.
EDIT 4: results for IS ER PPCs are exact as calculated, will try with a mech that has -10% heat gen next.

EDIT 5: yeah, I tested the Firebrand with its -10% heat gen with 2x ER PPCs and 10 engine + 10 external heatsinks, it is exactly as I calculated in the previous post; one salvo brings it to 37% heat, and it takes 6.94 seconds to cool off.

Note that the heat % after firing is typically 1-2% below expected with instant fire weapons, due to how the heat instantly starts dissipating as it is generated, and how the game rounds down.

So if a King Crab is taking 10 seconds to cool off after firing 2x ER PPC, then it is either moving, on a hot map, or it has less than 20 DHS.

Edited by Zergling, 31 July 2017 - 04:29 PM.

[Jun Watarase]

Just went into a FW game where the enemy team was mostly made up of RSQR guys and they just facetanked everything. Didnt even bother torso twisting or using cover. Fired 6 rounds of UAC 20 (might have been 5, last one was probably cut off by lag) pointblank into a orion that was hugging me and i didnt even get through his CT armor.

The fact that my cataphract has roughly the same CT armor as my direwolf is just hilarious. I dont even need to worry about positioning when my 70 tonner has the same armor as a 100 tonner without quirks.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 31 July 2017 - 03:57 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

oldradagast, on 31 July 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

On the flip side, IS gets better quirks, and I generally like the IS playstyle better, even though I have trouble defining what that is. More brawling and cooler running? Maybe?

IS playstyle emphasizes precision and follow-through at the expense of potency on the initial action.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jun Watarase, on 31 July 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

The fact that my cataphract has roughly the same CT armor as my direwolf is just hilarious. I dont even need to worry about positioning when my 70 tonner has the same armor as a 100 tonner without quirks.

And yet the Cataphract remains an uninspiring mech...

Honestly if mechs aren't torso twisting, 3 Ebons can drop a heavy in one shot. Dump a Cool shot and then you can drop another one, then turn and run to a new position.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 31 July 2017 - 04:17 PM.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Jun Watarase, on 31 July 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

The fact that my cataphract has roughly the same CT armor as my direwolf is just hilarious. I dont even need to worry about positioning when my 70 tonner has the same armor as a 100 tonner without quirks.

Meanwhile a Cataphract has about as much firepower as a HBK-IIC or Stormcrow.

[Zergling]

Aggravated Assault Mech, on 31 July 2017 - 04:19 PM, said:

Meanwhile a Cataphract has about as much firepower as a HBK-IIC or Stormcrow.

While being considerably slower and less agile, and a larger target.

[Novakaine]

More fake news from the Clan front.......

[Ghostrider0067]

Aggravated Assault Mech, on 31 July 2017 - 04:19 PM, said:

Meanwhile a Cataphract has about as much firepower as a HBK-IIC or Stormcrow.

While what you say may be true, it's why we play the games. Talk and conjecture is just that. A skilled pilot can be a difference maker even in what is believed to be a subpar much or in somewhat lopsided odds. Many a foe has fallen into that trap, only to find themselves looking at the destroyed screen. Remember that.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Andi Nagasia, on 31 July 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

well in tests,
IS Mech(-10%Heat Gen) 20DHS can fire 2ERPPCs, 36%heat on firing, 10seconds to 0%Heat on Bar,
Clan Mech(-10%Heat Gen) 30DHS can fire 2ERPPCs, 34%heat on firing, 8seconds to 0%Heat on Bar,
so ya the gap between the 2 ERPPC Boats doesnt seem like too much of a problem,

Very good point. I mention this stuff all the time when discussing Clan vs IS balance and always get told I am a Clam Apologist when I do. The reality is people either tend to forget, don't consider or neglect to take into account how hot most Clan weapons run. The result is that despite the additional number of DHS a Clan mech can mount the actual heat each faction is dealing with is about the same.