105 replies to this topic

[Darky101]

Wolfhound hero with ECM....pay to win....
Purifier.... pay to win............
Ebjag hero with left side balistic torso....strip arms and get 2 high mounted gaus rifles.... gonna be the best dual gauss mech in game.,.. P2W
Cougar! THE EFIN COUGAR! ECM and JJ Omnipods in the Reinforcement packs....PM2W
(pay more to win) JJs are the main thing of the Cougar..... just remember MW4 MErcs box cover...
Mad Cat MKII 4 balistic version in the reinforcement pack.

Standard packs are always straight up worse.....Ok Warhammer and Marauder packs where great because standard versions where unique compared to all the rest in the pack, and the heroes where not just straight up upgrades so they did not obsolete the other variants.

Enforcer GHILLIE only adds ECM, P2W.....
Yes the Kodiak had the best variant in the standard pack but I think that was just by mistake.....

Probably more examples but you get the point...
I feel this more and more and its that little thorn in my side that just keeps irittating me....

Edit based on comments: Granted the reinforcement packs are going to be available for cbills, and i forgot to mention that.
But still don't forget that they pushed out the pay to play window by so much that the Thanatos is still to TBD for Cbill release.

I also agree that it is much less pay to win then other MMO-s, and I also agree that they need somekind of income.

Ohh and putting the cougars ECM and JJ Omnipods in the reinforcement packs just makes me feel like the standard pack would be wasted dollars used to be able to pay for the one cougar version with JJs (JJ capapble Puma) that I would like to play.

So some heroes are getting standard variants with similar omnipod options:
https://mwomercs.com...clan-hero-mechs
Big thanks to FunkyT for for pointing that out and Zergling for posting the anouncement Link.
Cool!

Edited by Darky101, 08 August 2017 - 03:39 AM.

[DaMuchi]

It's much less pay to win then pay for an advantage and it's not even a very big advantage. I don't think it is unfair for people who fund the game to get a small advantage over free to play players.

Pay to win is only applicable when the premium mech is so overwhelmingly good that pilot skill is diluted to a large degree, which is not in the case of mwo.

Here are some possible pay to win mechanics.
Ability to buy extra tonnage in fw.
Premium equipment that a better in every way to free counterparts.

Having a good combination of ecm and jumpjets can hardly qualify to be pay to win when there are other mechs out there that are f2p and have similar abilities.

Edited by DaMuchi, 07 August 2017 - 11:37 PM.

[El Bandito]

It is how PGI gets people to buy reinforcement packs/heroes. Otherwise, there is little reason to go beyond basic pack.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 August 2017 - 11:34 PM.

[Vellron2005]

I would argue that the OP is right about the P2W allegations, but I've been in this game since closed beta, and all my mechs have cammos, paints, cockpit items and I have options on all of those left over to play with..

So.. In a game that gives you so much "real money only" stuff as rewards for just playing, and if you save up MC, you can even get hero mechs (I have several won from events and special promos), I can't really say the game is P2W..

In fact, MWO is one of the least P2W games I've ever seen, and that's one of the reasons I keep playing..

The P2W component turned me away from so many "free" MMO games in the past..

[HGAK47]

As long as its all released for C-Bills eventually (Hero`s excluded of course) then it is what it is. I can see both sides of the argument being quite valid. (to a point)

Edited by HGAK47, 07 August 2017 - 11:45 PM.

[Zergling]

ECM really isn't that big of a deal.

[invernomuto]

DaMuchi, on 07 August 2017 - 11:33 PM, said:

It's much less pay to win then pay for an advantage and it's not even a very big advantage. I don't think it is unfair for people who fund the game to get a small advantage over free to play players. Pay to win is only applicable when the premium mech is so overwhelmingly good that pilot skill is diluted to a large degree, which is not in the case of mwo. Here are some possible pay to win mechanics. Ability to buy extra tonnage in fw. Premium equipment that a better in every way to free counterparts. Having a good combination of ecm and jumpjets can hardly qualify to be pay to win when there are other mechs out there that are f2p and have similar abilities.

Agreed. Thay have to give something to players that pay not only for standard variants.
Heroes usually are nothing special but they have the useful +30% C-Bills and a nice pattern.
Reinforecement variants have something nice (IIRC one of them has ECM for MAD II pack), but they are hardly game breaking advantages and they will be avaliable for C-Bills in 6 month aftere the release, so I do not see the problem.

Edited by invernomuto, 07 August 2017 - 11:58 PM.

[Jingseng]

Jesus, are we back here again?

Should they release ANOTHER set of variants?

If a $mech let a literal new player (new to mwo, new to sims, new to mp gaming, and only 10 years old), on his first cadet bonus game score a deathstar, I'd agree that is clear cut p2w.

This?

I get that "pay to not suck as much as whomever thereafter is complaining about some perceived OP edge in mech packs is pay to win" is much harder to abbreviate, but that still doesn't mean everything is p2w =p

[FunkyT]

In the case of the Hero mech omnipods:

Aren't they releasing new standard variants with the same / very similar omnipods at the same time? I mean the countdown page for the Wave II heroes features the hero in question as well as a standard variant.
If I'm not mistaken, they did that because of P2W accusations like these, because some of these omnipods were really Pay to Optimize.

And with the hero mechs in general:

I can see why you would call it P2W if the hero does something, that no other variant can do. Hero Battlemechs will likely not get new standard variants with the same capabilities and will never be available for C-Bills.
But at the same time, the heroes have to do something different than the rest, right? In BT / MW lore, they probably are considered special / hero mechs because they were unique in their design, doing something the chassis isn't known for. So it makes sense to have the occasional hero standing out from his standard variants.


Edit:
Granted, the Cougar-H was kind of a d*ck move. Putting all the utility of the chassis into the reinforcements pack. But from what I can see, this happens very rarely. Even the ECM Nightstar in the reinforcements pack is kinda hardpoint starved, as a tradeoff.

Edited by FunkyT, 08 August 2017 - 12:40 AM.

[Lily from animove]

DaMuchi, on 07 August 2017 - 11:33 PM, said:

It's much less pay to win then pay for an advantage and it's not even a very big advantage. I don't think it is unfair for people who fund the game to get a small advantage over free to play players.

Pay to win is only applicable when the premium mech is so overwhelmingly good that pilot skill is diluted to a large degree, which is not in the case of mwo.

Here are some possible pay to win mechanics.
Ability to buy extra tonnage in fw.
Premium equipment that a better in every way to free counterparts.

Having a good combination of ecm and jumpjets can hardly qualify to be pay to win when there are other mechs out there that are f2p and have similar abilities.

I disagree, on higher skill levels those tiny advantages are the deciding edge. therefore the only advantages people funding the game should be in form of XP and cbills but never any mech specific features influencing the battle. The hero mech specific pods and some extra hardpoints advanatge is not a good thing.

theres tons of other possibilities to find the game, some cool and exclusive camos, hero or champion upgrades they could make. but incentives to buy mechs should not come form laodout specific advantages.

[M3 SABLE]

How about that dogshit Executioner hero? Look at the rest first...

[Jay Leon Hart]

Darky101, on 07 August 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

Wolfhound hero with ECM....pay to win....

Agreed. Bought it, love it.

Darky101, on 07 August 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

Purifier.... pay to win............

Also agreed. Bought it, love it.

Darky101, on 07 August 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

Enforcer GHILLIE only adds ECM, P2W.....

Also agreed. Not bought it, will do eventually (probably in a Hero sale for MC).

Darky101, on 07 August 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

Ebjag hero with left side balistic torso....strip arms and get 2 high mounted gaus rifles.... gonna be the best dual gauss mech in game.,.. P2W

Kinda... still not dethroning the NTG, since those Gauss can be shot off by enemies you can't even see. Still, bought it, (should) love it.

Darky101, on 07 August 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

Cougar! THE EFIN COUGAR! ECM and JJ Omnipods in the Reinforcement packs....PM2W
(pay more to win) JJs are the main thing of the Cougar..... just remember MW4 MErcs box cover...

Will be available for C-Bills at the same time as the other Cougars. No more Pay-2-Win than any other pre-order 'mech. Bought it... not tried it.

Darky101, on 07 August 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

Mad Cat MKII 4 balistic version in the reinforcement pack.

Will be available for C-Bills at the same time as the other Cougars Mad Cat Mk IIs. No more Pay-2-Win than any other pre-order 'mech. Bought it... not tried it.

Darky101, on 07 August 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

Standard packs are always straight up worse.....Ok Warhammer and Marauder packs where great because standard versions where unique compared to all the rest in the pack, and the heroes where not just straight up upgrades so they did not obsolete the other variants.

I dunno, the Black Widow gets a decent amount of Pay-2-Win accusations. Or rather, it used to.

Darky101, on 07 August 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

Yes the Kodiak had the best variant in the standard pack but I think that was just by mistake.....

They only had to invent the Hero, so they had the "1", 2, 3, 4 and 5 to draw from. "1", 2 & 3 were in the Standard pack, because that's the order they're listed in Sarna (which, I think, is the order they were manufactured / introduced?). Same with the Javelin, for example - 10N, 10F & 10P, then 11A & 11B

[Funk1777]

I really like this free to play game. Im just glad that they found some way to keep the cash flowing.

[SteelMantis]

Really the game would be better off if all the Clan heroes had a special paint job and C-bill bonus as the only thing different.

It doesn't seem like such a big deal though, there are plenty of mechs and builds you can use for free that are as good as the pay walled stuff.

Edited by SteelMantis, 08 August 2017 - 01:27 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Well, 3 years ago, when ECM was Magic Jesus Bubble I'd agree. But today...not so much.

[El Bandito]

Jay Leon Hart, on 08 August 2017 - 01:03 AM, said:

I dunno, the Black Widow gets a decent amount of Pay-2-Win accusations. Or rather, it used to.

Yep, and once it had sold enough, PGI nerfed its quirks.

[Jay Leon Hart]

El Bandito, on 08 August 2017 - 01:55 AM, said:

Yep, and once it had sold enough, PGI nerfed its quirks.

Which is why you should never buy anything for the quirks

[Luminis]

Different option being paywalled isn't pay to win. If those options are objectively best in class, that's what makes them P2W.

• Grinner: Loses an energy hardpoint and the offensive quirks compared to the WLF-2 for ECM. Considering the state of ECM, I'd argue the WLF-2 is still the better Light.
  
• Esprit de Corps: Probably the best EBJ for dual Gauss, but you can't drop the engine and need to keep armour on at least one arm to add lasers. Have my fair share of doubts it'll be better than the WHM-6R or NTG-D at it and even then, I'm not convinced it'll outperform other Heavies that aren't dual Gauss.
  
• Cougar: I don't think there's an ECM variant, but regardless: Even if the OmniPods necessary to build the best build are in the Reinforcement Packs, I still don't see the Cougar as one of, let alone the best Light.
  
• Mad Cat Mk. II: That one I can agree with, sorta. The MCII is easily among the best Assaults. There might be other 'Mechs that rival them, but they're about the only 'Mech on your list that has a shot at best in Class, with the hero variant potentially being the best variant (depending on the role you need to fill, it won't make a better brawler than a Scorch or Cyclops or whatever).
  
• Ghillie: Again, ECM isn't the Magic Jesus Box it used to be, so losing hardpoints and / or offensive quirks just for ECM is a meh trade and Enforcers are hardly the best Mediums at present, anyway.

Long story short, the cases where you can make an argument for the best in class option being paywalled are few and far between, especially the ones that are permanently paywalled.

[Kiiyor]

Zergling, on 07 August 2017 - 11:48 PM, said:

ECM really isn't that big of a deal.

But.... but my OUTRAGE!

[Khobai]

thats the whole problem with mechpacks being your only revenue stream....

PGI needs to keep power creeping the mechpacks or theres no reason for us to keep buying them