214 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Kompleks Ognevoi Podderzhki 320, on 15 August 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

And why all this "cookies" for the clans, if they are not usable? The child playing with the IS with his foot will be more useful than the clan middle fur in the 240 ton deck. I'm on the break until all this disgrace ends.

Clan mechs are still best, fyi.

[UrbanTarget]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 August 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

No it isn't, this game is supposed to be balanced.

You can't at a single weapon cry for balance. Balance in this game needs to be total-package balance, this means pit 2 pilots against each other and if their loadouts are both optimal or both terrible and as many other factors are as equal as possible, they both stand a chance to win...

Yes, a lot of genetalization there, but if you are going to argue homogeny... thats never going to happen unless every last detail, hardpoint and hitbox is the same or there will always be something to argue about.

[Kompleks Ognevoi Podderzhki 320]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 August 2017 - 02:08 PM, said:

Clan mechs are still best, fyi.

Go to FP in 240t deck vs 265 quirked IS with same range and DMG as is clans mechs and prove it.

[NocturnalBeast]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 August 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

No it isn't, this game is supposed to be balanced.

Balance does not mean that each weapon is a one to one exact copy, but with a different skin, the balance comes from the fact that Clans have weapons and equipment that are superior in some ways, under certain conditions and IS weapons and equipment are superior in other ways under different combinations. This combined with the skill of the Mechwarrior piloting the Mech and the ability / makeup of the team that that Mechwarrior / Mech is a part of vs you / your Mech / your team.

Gas Guzzler, on 15 August 2017 - 02:08 PM, said:

Clan mechs are still best, fyi.

People get this impression (in FP at least) because there are fewer Clan units, so you have a greater chance of being matched up against a better-than-average team.

Edited by Ed Steele, 15 August 2017 - 02:45 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kompleks Ognevoi Podderzhki 320, on 15 August 2017 - 02:41 PM, said:

Go to FP in 240t deck vs 265 quirked IS with same range and DMG as is clans mechs and prove it.

Where are the 80 damage alpha gauss vomit IS mechs?

Granted, I don't really care about FP because its a dumb game mode that consists of which 1-2 good players can club seals the most effectively in a match most of the time.

Ton for ton, Clan mechs are definitely better. I know.. I use them over 80% of the time.

[Y E O N N E]

Ed Steele, on 15 August 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

People get this impression (in FP at least) because there are fewer Clan units, so you have a greater chance of being matched up against a better-than-average team.

Gas is on one of those better-than-average teams.

[Gas Guzzler]

UrbanTarget, on 15 August 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

You can't at a single weapon cry for balance. Balance in this game needs to be total-package balance, this means pit 2 pilots against each other and if their loadouts are both optimal or both terrible and as many other factors are as equal as possible, they both stand a chance to win...

Yes, a lot of genetalization there, but if you are going to argue homogeny... thats never going to happen unless every last detail, hardpoint and hitbox is the same or there will always be something to argue about.

I don't want homogeny. I'm not telling them to make the IS UAC10 4 slots, 10 tons, and 3 heat with 3 shots per burst. I'm just saying the weapon is already larger and heavier, and doesn't need to be slapped with higher heat that IS mechs can't handle as well because they have 3 slot DHS, and the weapons themselves are bigger and heavier which leaves less tonnage/slots for DHS (did I mention IS DHS are 3 slots vs Clan 2?). I am looking at the whole package, and the whole package leaves the IS UAC10 wanting.

Ed Steele, on 15 August 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

Balance does not mean that each weapon is a one to one exact copy, but with a different skin, the balance comes from the fact that Clans have weapons and equipment that are superior in some ways, under certain conditions and IS weapons and equipment are superior in other ways under different combinations. This combined with the skill of the Mechwarrior piloting the Mech and the ability / makeup of the team that that Mechwarrior / Mech is a part of vs you / your Mech / your team.

They already have other advantages/disadvantages (mostly disadvantages on the IS side, the only advantage is 2 shot burst instead of 3, which is not enough to balance out the 3 extra tons, 3 extra slots, and extra point of heat per shot. Given the additional tonnage and slots required, the heat doesn't need to be higher than the Clan versions. The weapons still behave differently. This is VERY far from homogeny so not sure what you are worried about.

Still this is a lot of chatter about nothing. Nothing here says, oh yeah the IS UAC10 would be too good with 3 heat. 4 heat is just the arbitrary value that PGI chose, and all the lemmings are sticking with it because GOD FORBID something gets buffed.

[Zergling]

Clan UAC10 builds are better than IS UAC10 builds, so a buff to the IS UAC10 isn't a bad idea by any means.

[BTGbullseye]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 August 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

They already have other advantages/disadvantages

That argument is a slippery slope... If you 'fix' this difference, then when will it end? There will always be differences like this right up until everything is an exact copy on both sides, or close enough to be pointless to choose between the two. I want variety, not sameness.

[Jay Leon Hart]

For some odd reason, both the IS AC10 and UAC10 are 1 heat more than their Clan counterparts.

Then, IS LBX weapons are all cooler than Clan, *except* the 10, which is the same heat.

So, does PGI just think 10-class IS ACs are the best ballistics ever, or what?

Curiouser and curiouser...

[NocturnalBeast]

Zergling, on 15 August 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

Clan UAC10 builds are better than IS UAC10 builds, so a buff to the IS UAC10 isn't a bad idea by any means.

My point is that IS UACS work the way they are intended to, so if you believe they are not good enough, then use an IS weapon that is better than the most equivalent Clan weapon. Don't stubbornly say that IS UACs should be better just because you feel that they should be able to work the same as Clan UACs.

[Zergling]

Ed Steele, on 15 August 2017 - 03:10 PM, said:

My point is that IS UACS work the way they are intended to, so if you believe they are not good enough, then use an IS weapon that is better than the most equivalent Clan weapon. Don't stubbornly say that IS UACs should be better just because you feel that they should be able to work the same as Clan UACs.

The Clan UAC10 is the most equivalent Clan weapon to the IS UAC10.

And IS UAC10 builds are very much inferior to Clan UAC10 builds, primarly because the IS UAC10 is so inferior to the Clan UAC10.

Edited by Zergling, 15 August 2017 - 03:16 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

And IS UAC10 builds are very much inferior to Clan UAC10 builds, primarly because the IS UAC10 is so inferior to the Clan UAC10.

CAC20 is very much inferior to ISAC20

firing in bursts is way worse than firing a single slug

so there are also some IS weapons that are better than the clan versions

it goes both ways

Edited by Khobai, 15 August 2017 - 03:21 PM.

[Zergling]

Khobai, on 15 August 2017 - 03:19 PM, said:

CAC20 is inferior to IS AC20

firing in bursts is way worse than firing a single slug

Irrelevant, as the discussion is about the UAC10.

Khobai, on 15 August 2017 - 03:19 PM, said:

so there are also some IS weapons that are better than the clan versions

it goes both ways

Then buff the weak weapons of both factions, don't use 'oh this faction has THIS weapon that is better' as justification for bad balance.

Edited by Zergling, 15 August 2017 - 03:22 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Irrelevant, as the discussion is about the UAC10.

well now its about the CAC20

the ISAC20 is better

waa waa fix the CAC20

[Kompleks Ognevoi Podderzhki 320]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 August 2017 - 02:45 PM, said:

Where are the 80 damage alpha gauss vomit IS mechs?

Granted, I don't really care about FP because its a dumb game mode that consists of which 1-2 good players can club seals the most effectively in a match most of the time.

Ton for ton, Clan mechs are definitely better. I know.. I use them over 80% of the time.

Config you're talking about is very hot weight 90 tonn have cool down all weapons about 6 sec. And laser duration 1.5 sec. and cost 20$. I have him. But u can do this for C- bills with maulers (also 90 tonns) and u take 90 + 70 + 65 + 40 last one will be assassin. And I will be have maximum 30t Arctic Cheetah. See about that - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bec703cb184be7d u have the same range. -20 % jaam chance - 10 % heat gen - 10% cool dawm for balistic... and this mech will deal more than new mad cat with 6 sec cool dawn , durations and 80% heat scale. Or made u more quirked deck... or maybe full meta - deck ?

[Zergling]

Khobai, on 15 August 2017 - 03:21 PM, said:

well now its about the CAC20

the ISAC20 is better

waa waa fix the CAC20

Real mature there. /smh

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 15 August 2017 - 03:19 PM, said:

CAC20 is very much inferior to ISAC20

firing in bursts is way worse than firing a single slug

Luckily though, the Clan LB20X is better than the IS AC20.

Longer range
Higher velocity
Less tonnage
Less slots
No Ghost Heat

[Zergling]

Kompleks Ognevoi Podderzhki 320, on 15 August 2017 - 03:22 PM, said:

Config you're talking about is very hot weight 90 tonn have cool down all weapons about 6 sec. And laser duration 1.5 sec. and cost 20$. I have him. But u can do this for C- bills with maulers (also 90 tonns) and u take 90 + 70 + 65 + 40 last one will be assassin. And I will be have maximum 30t Arctic Cheetah. See about that - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bec703cb184be7d u have the same range. -20 % jaam chance - 10 % heat gen - 10% cool dawm for balistic... and this mech will deal more than new mad cat with 6 sec cool dawn , durations and 80% heat scale. Or made u more quirked deck... or maybe full meta - deck ?

That Mauler only has -10% heat gen for the lasers, not the UAC10s. It's also running an XL.

And Clans can do the same thing even better.

Here's a more comparable Mauler build, that is using a LFE.


Accounting for quirks, and assuming the UAC10s on neither mech are double-tapping:

The Mauler 2P has 50 damage alpha, 360 meter effective range, 34.51% heat efficiency, 15.95 maximum DPS, 5.50 sustained DPS.
The Mad Cat II Deathstrike has 62 damage alpha, 400 meter effective range, 42.67% heat efficiency, 16.40 maximum DPS, 7.00 sustained DPS.

They also have same mobility stats, but the Deathstrike is nearly 11 kph faster.

Edited by Zergling, 15 August 2017 - 03:38 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

Zergling, on 15 August 2017 - 03:21 PM, said:

Irrelevant, as the discussion is about the UAC10.

It is relevant to my comment that the less-effective IS AC/10 is balanced out by more effective IS weapons like the IS A/C20. This is how "balance" is achieved, not by making everything the same.

Edited by Ed Steele, 15 August 2017 - 03:36 PM.