214 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Ed Steele, on 16 August 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

Yes, but if you get over the fact that the IS UAC/10 is not supposed to be as good as a Clan UAC/10, then you can focus on making a different build that can fulfill a similar roll with different weapons (RACs+ UAC/2s maybe? Dual UAC/5s?).

Okay, let's try the Socratic method.

What role is it that you feel the isUAC/10 fills?

[NocturnalBeast]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 August 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

Okay, let's try the Socratic method.

What role is it that you feel the isUAC/10 fills?

Well, it seems like the issue that some people have is that the IS UAC/10 is too heavy and takes up too many slots so it can not be "boated". So, I would think that the IS UAC/10 would be best for Mechs that only have a single ballistic hard point in an arm or something (Dragon, Centurion), while IS Mechs with multiple ballistic hard points would take multiple RACs or smaller UACs or a combination of the two.

Gas Guzzler, on 16 August 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

What's wrong with wanting the UAC10 to be viable?

It is "viable", just not in a way that you want it to be.

Edited by Ed Steele, 16 August 2017 - 02:53 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Ed Steele, on 16 August 2017 - 02:53 PM, said:

Well, it seems like the issue that some people have is that the IS UAC/10 is too heavy and takes up too many slots so it can not be "boated". So, I would think that the IS UAC/10 would be best for Mechs that only have a single ballistic hard point in an arm or something (Dragon, Centurion), while IS Mechs with multiple ballistic hard points would take multiple RACs or smaller UACs or a combination of the two.

Before I counter, I should re-phrase my question:

What combat role do you see isUAC/10 filling? Burst/poke? DPS? Brawl-range? Mid-range? Striker? Harasser? Area denial? You can give me some example builds, if you want. Even on those low hardpoint 'Mechs (i.e. show me a Dragon or Centurion). I can't really explain my position relative to yours without understanding the latter.

[NocturnalBeast]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 August 2017 - 05:10 PM, said:

Before I counter, I should re-phrase my question:

What combat role do you see isUAC/10 filling? Burst/poke? DPS? Brawl-range? Mid-range? Striker? Harasser? Area denial? You can give me some example builds, if you want. Even on those low hardpoint 'Mechs (i.e. show me a Dragon or Centurion). I can't really explain my position relative to yours without understanding the latter.

The IS UAC/10 would be used for mid_range suppression fire / dps and it's larger size would make it best suited for Mechs that are not able to fit multiple smaller RACs or UACs. I do not have time to provide builds, what you put on the rest of the Mech is up to you. It could be interesting on an Enforcer maybe.

Edited by Ed Steele, 16 August 2017 - 05:48 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Ed Steele, on 16 August 2017 - 05:33 PM, said:

The IS UAC/10 would be used for mid_range suppression fire / dps and it's larger size would make it best suited for Mechs that are not able to fit multiple smaller RACs or UACs. I do not have time to provide builds, what you put on the rest of the Mech is up to you.

Okay, I can work with that. Suppression implies you are remaining exposed to punish; if you are entering cover, you are no longer suppressing; you are instead suppressed. If you are not remaining exposed to punish targets, then you are poking, not suppressing. The qualities you need to perform suppression are:

• High DPS
  
• Highly Sustainable DPS
  
• Reliable DPS
  
• Follow through (ability to respond to changes)

So what makes you think the UAC/10 is ideal for this, especially just one? Consider the CN9-D, the gimpiest of the entire chassis. Keep in mind, the CN9-D has -20% ballistic cool-down and +10% missile velocity quirks that are factored in:


Here's a CN9-D build with a UAC/10:
Alpha: 20+10
Max DPS: 7.16 + 4.8 (Time to Overheat of 0:50 without double taps)
Max Sustained DPS: 4.32 (doesn't change due to quirks)

Here's a CN9-D build with UAC/2:
Alpha: 14+4
Max DPS: 9.03 + 6.62 (Time to Overheat of 0:28 without double taps)
Max Sustained DPS: 5.14
Here's a CN9-D build with MRM40:
Alpha: 50
Max DPS: 11.66 (Time to Overheat of 0:20)
Max Sustained DPS: 5.36

You can throw on XL if you want, it just improves the output across the board.

The numbers make the UAC/10 look mediocre on sustain once heat-capped, but it takes so long to heat cap that you can fire at full DPS for longer. So that's nice. The alpha isn't too shabby, either, if you double tap. However, there's a catch for both DPS and alpha: the weapon jams. Not only does it jam, it has one of the higher jam chances and longer jam durations. As soon as it jams, or if you only fire it on standard mode, it becomes dreadful for suppression. The UAC/2 version, on the other hand, has even higher sustained DPS than the UAC/10 build just by keeping the triggers depressed and ignoring the ERMedLas, and it takes forever to overheat doing that, giving you margin to boost it intermittently. Fired full tilt, it's got better DPS than the entire deck, and when it jams it does so only briefly. And it has the best range, which means it can still operate from further away. And then there's the MRMs, which have more stringent range requirements but can strip armor very quickly despite the spread and, ignoring the ERML, does 7.35 DPS for over a minute and a half, giving the best output once heat-soaked.

So, objectively, if I'm going to go for suppression, I'm shooting myself in the foot taking the UAC/10. The damage is too unreliable. And we are still forgetting the ERLL, which is better at suppression than all of the above and both the CN9-AL and DRG-1C can do it just fine.

If, however, we want to poke? Then you can make a stronger case for the UAC/10 because you just return to cover when you jam. But then the MRM build is absolutely better, too, because we are putting even less emphasis on sustain and more on total damage. And even then, the geo and hardpoints on the CN9 make it mediocre for poke, so brawl is where that chassis truly shines...and there the AC/20, SRM, and SN-PPC rule the roost. Even on other 'Mechs, if you are going to poke it's better to take a Gauss or standard 10 and lasers than to rely on the double-tap.

This is what it means to min-max. If we're min-maxing for roles, the isUAC/10 doesn't have any place it fits while the cUAC/10 does, and that's why there is consternation over its current stats. It just doesn't fit anywhere.

With regard to boating isUAC/10:

We are not concerned with being able to boat them; the reason boating two comes up is because IS Assaults have a steep firepower deficit to overcome in the alpha department that alternatives cannot overcome and that the UAC/10 offers a solution to. But you need two to do it. A pair of UAC/10 with six ERML might be somewhat comparable (read: equal-but-different) to the 72-80 alpha Madcat Mk. IIs running around by double tapping out 70, but because it runs so hot it just can't hold a candle; it doesn't have the heatsinks and it can't even lean on its ballistics during cool-down to dissipate the heat. And it's slower, and shorter-ranged, and jams frequently.

Essentially, taking UAC/10 on anything always leaves you undergunned for heat reasons or for raw damage output reasons, even on hardpoint-strapped 'Mechs. The only things that really work with UAC/10 are...more UAC/10.

And as a closing thought, I don't understand the resistance to buffing it since there is little risk of the isUAC/10 ever doing the same things as the Clan one for weight and slot reasons alone. The 'Mech construction rules prevent it from ever happening because fitment is the entire name of the game, here.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 16 August 2017 - 07:56 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 August 2017 - 07:55 PM, said:

Okay, I can work with that. Suppression implies you are remaining exposed to punish; if you are entering cover, you are no longer suppressing; you are instead suppressed. If you are not remaining exposed to punish targets, then you are poking, not suppressing. The qualities you need to perform suppression are:

• High DPS
  
• Highly Sustainable DPS
  
• Reliable DPS
  
• Follow through (ability to respond to changes)

So what makes you think the UAC/10 is ideal for this, especially just one? Consider the CN9-D, the gimpiest of the entire chassis. Keep in mind, the CN9-D has -20% ballistic cool-down and +10% missile velocity quirks that are factored in:




Here's a CN9-D build with a UAC/10:
Alpha: 20+10
Max DPS: 7.16 + 4.8 (Time to Overheat of 0:50 without double taps)
Max Sustained DPS: 4.32 (doesn't change due to quirks)

Here's a CN9-D build with UAC/2:
Alpha: 14+4
Max DPS: 9.03 + 6.62 (Time to Overheat of 0:28 without double taps)
Max Sustained DPS: 5.14
Here's a CN9-D build with MRM40:
Alpha: 50
Max DPS: 11.66 (Time to Overheat of 0:20)
Max Sustained DPS: 5.36

You can throw on XL if you want, it just improves the output across the board.

The numbers make the UAC/10 look mediocre on sustain once heat-capped, but it takes so long to heat cap that you can fire at full DPS for longer. So that's nice. The alpha isn't too shabby, either, if you double tap. However, there's a catch for both DPS and alpha: the weapon jams. Not only does it jam, it has one of the higher jam chances and longer jam durations. As soon as it jams, or if you only fire it on standard mode, it becomes dreadful for suppression. The UAC/2 version, on the other hand, has even higher sustained DPS than the UAC/10 build just by keeping the triggers depressed and ignoring the ERMedLas, and it takes forever to overheat doing that, giving you margin to boost it intermittently. Fired full tilt, it's got better DPS than the entire deck, and when it jams it does so only briefly. And it has the best range, which means it can still operate from further away. And then there's the MRMs, which have more stringent range requirements but can strip armor very quickly despite the spread and, ignoring the ERML, does 7.35 DPS for over a minute and a half, giving the best output once heat-soaked.

So, objectively, if I'm going to go for suppression, I'm shooting myself in the foot taking the UAC/10. The damage is too unreliable. And we are still forgetting the ERLL, which is better at suppression than all of the above and both the CN9-AL and DRG-1C can do it just fine.

If, however, we want to poke? Then you can make a stronger case for the UAC/10 because you just return to cover when you jam. But then the MRM build is absolutely better, too, because we are putting even less emphasis on sustain and more on total damage. And even then, the geo and hardpoints on the CN9 make it mediocre for poke, so brawl is where that chassis truly shines...and there the AC/20, SRM, and SN-PPC rule the roost. Even on other 'Mechs, if you are going to poke it's better to take a Gauss or standard 10 and lasers than to rely on the double-tap.

This is what it means to min-max. If we're min-maxing for roles, the isUAC/10 doesn't have any place it fits while the cUAC/10 does, and that's why there is consternation over its current stats. It just doesn't fit anywhere.

With regard to boating isUAC/10:

We are not concerned with being able to boat them; the reason boating two comes up is because IS Assaults have a steep firepower deficit to overcome in the alpha department that alternatives cannot overcome and that the UAC/10 offers a solution to. But you need two to do it. A pair of UAC/10 with six ERML might be somewhat comparable (read: equal-but-different) to the 72-80 alpha Madcat Mk. IIs running around by double tapping out 70, but because it runs so hot it just can't hold a candle; it doesn't have the heatsinks and it can't even lean on its ballistics during cool-down to dissipate the heat. And it's slower, and shorter-ranged, and jams frequently.

Essentially, taking UAC/10 on anything always leaves you undergunned for heat reasons or for raw damage output reasons, even on hardpoint-strapped 'Mechs. The only things that really work with UAC/10 are...more UAC/10.

And as a closing thought, I don't understand the resistance to buffing it since there is little risk of the isUAC/10 ever doing the same things as the Clan one for weight and slot reasons alone. The 'Mech construction rules prevent it from ever happening because fitment is the entire name of the game, here.

Yes, this is all on paper, but you do more damage with fewer shots with the UAC/10, so depending on the Mechwarrior, it may be superior to a UAC\2. My point is, that it is not completely useless. Yes, the IS UAC/10 is not viable for "boating" but it is a good solo weapon in certain situations.

I did not check to see if you had any targeting computers on those builds, but any solo-weapon would get a decent crit boost from a targeting computer.

Anyway, I need to earn allot of C Bills to put my experimental build on my Enforcer.

Edited by Ed Steele, 16 August 2017 - 10:59 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Ed Steele, on 16 August 2017 - 10:58 PM, said:

Yes, this is all on paper, but you do more damage with fewer shots with the UAC/10, so depending on the Mechwarrior, it may be superior to a UAC\2.

That is neither DPS nor suppression, that's poke. And, two things on that:

1. You can fire enough rounds in the poke window from the UAC/2 to match the 10, which is why the 4x cUAC/2 HBK-IIC is equitable to the cERPPC one at top levels of play, and the velocity and range make it better than even the the twin cUAC/10 version for placing damage and keeping your exposure down.

2. You can do even better still for mid-range poke by just taking LPL/ERML, with more reliability.

Quote

My point is, that it is not completely useless. Yes, the IS UAC/10 is not viable for "boating" but it is a good solo weapon in certain situations.

Nobody said it was completely useless, they implied it is completely useless if you are trying to build optimally. That is the nuance you are either ignoring or missing. You are also attached to the boating thing; it isn't about boating. In fact, the problem with the weapon is, most succinctly, that it only works well specifically when boated and is weak anywhere else...because only another UAC is both powerful enough and cold enough to combine with it.

And it is a horrid solo weapon, as is any UAC, because of the jams. It needs backup weapons .

The weapon being the best option on 'Mechs that are complete turds (e.g. PTR-10P, though even there MRM would be better)...really doesn't say much for the weapon.

Quote

I did not check to see if you had any targeting computers on those builds, but any solo-weapon would get a decent crit boost from a targeting computer.

No TCs on any, plenty of DHS as per the requirements of your stated use case, but the crit chance is even better for UAC/2. Still, more crit is not terribly useful for carrying your own weight when 'Mechs have armor to peel through first.

Bottom line, any build you show me with UAC/10 and a stated mission goal, I can build a more optimized version of using different weapons, with the following caveat: quirks can make it worthwhile. I don't know about you, but I would rather weapons find a niche on their own merits.

[NocturnalBeast]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 August 2017 - 02:10 PM, said:

Bottom line, any build you show me with UAC/10 and a stated mission goal, I can build a more optimized version of using different weapons, with the following caveat: quirks can make it worthwhile. I don't know about you, but I would rather weapons find a niche on their own merits.

Sigh....it is too hard to properly respond from a cellphone. Anyway, I am still grinding C Bills to put some Mechs together to test out and due to my limited amount of gaming time during the week, this may take a while. And yes, I said in my previous statements that there are better weapon options, although that does not mean that the UAC/10 should be buffed. I dropped with a fellow FWL Mechwarrior the other night an he was piloting a Warhammer-6R with one UAC/10 and a bunch of lasers and he out-damaged most of the team in multiple games, so it is not a badass weapon in the right hands.

[UnKnownPlayer]

so when did the ghost heat on SRMs change? I just noticed in the mech lab that SRMs no longer get ghost heat above 1 and there is no mention of it in the patch notes anywhere.

[Delta1262 Scorch]

I wonder, are the hardpoints/textures that were messed up or look illogical now - gonna be fixed or stay as they are now?
Some that i've noticed till now:

That Shadow cat's right arm, energy hardpoint location of which was messed up (i think that's because of the SC hero's right arm), now all the variants has their ER-PPC mounted not in the arm itself where it was before and should be, but on it's side, like some tiny laser.

Spoiler

Another one is more about logical stuff. Now when we have Eb.Jag with Right Torso high mount energy - i wonder why Left Torso of -B variant wasn't made to look the same? They are identical in hardpoints, but in the terms of visual and hitboxes - LT is much bigger and is using high mount attachment for 2 Energy weapons, where 1 is simply not exist.

Spoiler

And the last one is not fresh that appeared with this update, in the matter of fact - i think it appeared with the skill three update, or maybe even before it and i mentioned this already, but gosh, it's still there...can someone please fix that Left Arm on Nova?

Spoiler

[Jay Leon Hart]

Delta1262 Scorch, on 23 August 2017 - 06:42 AM, said:

Another one is more about logical stuff. Now when we have Eb.Jag with Right Torso high mount energy - i wonder why Left Torso of -B variant wasn't made to look the same? They are identical in hardpoints, but in the terms of visual and hitboxes - LT is much bigger and is using high mount attachment for 2 Energy weapons, where 1 is simply not exist.

Spoiler

This bugs me so much.

[Desintegrator]

So many new Heros !

[Sleepy Panda]

Can we please have drop ships firing Medium and Lrg lasers. I am tired of the new tactic of Faction play where the IS team pushes through our first drop wave and then take over our drop zones and do a drop zone pillage. There's no way to fight back against this. Plus, they can damage you while in the drop ship? C'mon guys, it's ruining the playability of the game.

Now it's all about pushing through and drop zone pillaging, one by one.

Oh, the reason I post is I recently had this happen to me almost every game. So if my team messes up on the first drop, you're screwed for the remaining 3 drops. It's removed the strategic plays and turned it into brute pillaging.

[TheFallOfTheReaper]

Uhm the cat arm was noticed and forwarded to pgi, along with the nova arm, their response was the arm of the nova was slated to be fixed, but the shadowcat apparently is correct...... lol, and knock off the trolling for sake of trolling everyone's argument has validity, to them or others, leave it be there is enough toxicity on this forum to last a lifetime in just one post. Take it up on the battlefield, like good clammers, since an irl fistfight would end in jail time for both :3

[Grus]

Star Colonel Silver Surat, on 11 August 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

The problems with the Ice Ferret stem from its fat geometry. PGI turned a decent looking light-medium mech in the canon into a tubby ugly little duckling. Compare the profiles in Tech Readout 3050 to what we got in this game.

I'm pretty happy with most of the rest of the Clan mechs, but the Ice Ferret should be remodeled to improve its aesthetics and actually make it usable in game.

It needs to go on a diet and have its torso slimmed down and shrunk in proportion to its legs. The Ice Ferret is at that weight and size where people start shooting the torso primarily rather than the legs, despite its speed.

the issue is with the arms. They are huge and some up a lot of damage but don't have the armor to take much damage in return.